emaughan Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Emaughn,So how does this play into the Idea that Christ attoned for all these other planets as well?If where a case... of simply asking God for more knowledge... A savior would not have needed to be sent.Or was Eve having a blonde moment? All we know from Moses is that there were other worlds like ours. Given the number I am confident that they all did not, lemming like, follow Satan's advice. I'm also confident that, knowing people and God's gift of agency, that even on worlds that are still in a higher state - sin happens. Also what I do not know is if all do have to enter a fallen world to progress. The difference may be that if they ask God first, that he would direct them as to what they need to do (and choose) and not curse them when they fall since it is under His council - pure speculation.This is just more speculation, who knows the details?I do believe that all "Adams and Eves" are destined to eat of the tree of knowledge - Adam and Eve on this Earth made the mistake of listening to the wrong person and not taking the question to God.
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes,Yes I would agree Johnny, but you where saying life would not have ceased, and it would have because Eve ate the fruit.Thus Adam was put in a bind... Which commandment should I obey...Adam should have obeyed his father and trusted in his Father. I believe his Father would understand the situation.
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 By doing that he would have disobeyed Gods other command. The whole human race would have been destroyed and God would have had to start all over.He demonstrated his willingness to obey God. By eating the fruit since the command was already broken.This is demonstrated in Gods reaction. The woman was placed in subjection to the Man. And a Savior was prepared to counteract the effects of death.If Adam hadnt of eaten he would have sinned.1 Tim 213 For Adam was first aformed, then Eve.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being adeceived was in the transgression.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and choliness with sobriety.He knew exactly what he was doing when he ate... ie obeying Gods command that handt been broken.
emaughan Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Adam should have obeyed his father and trusted in his Father. I believe his Father would understand the situation.I agree with Johnny Adam should have taken the problem to God.Interesting that this is another possibilty - Eve falls, but Adam waits for God to help him know what to do.Or Adam takes the fruit when offered but Eve does not.Or Adam freely refuses to follow Eve - that would be an interesting one.Again - with little revelation it is hard to know what would happen in these alternate situations.
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 But there is where Paul comes in.Adam knew exactly what he was doing when he ate.He was obeying Gods command to Multiply. He was not decieved.That is why Eve was placed in subjection to the man. Because he showed God his willingness to obey. She did not.Did you notice the conditionality of Salvation in Pauls letter?Of course... what if Adam ate the fruit and Eve did it to remain with him.Can everyone say... Amazon... Planet Earth! Now that would be Eden!
emaughan Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 True, but we know as LDS that Adam made that decision on his own. There is no indication that he took the problem before God - granted he was doing his best to obey God at the time - there was no hint that he asked God what to do next.
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Very true. He didnt take it to God. But that was the test.It was an experiment to see what they where made out of.
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes,By doing that he would have disobeyed Gods other command. The whole human race would have been destroyed and God would have had to start all over.But he would have kept the other command. I believe that God know's how to derive good from any situaion.
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Thats the paradox we are faced with in the Bible Johnny.Theres no question God could have remedied the situation. However... that remedy would have eliminated "free will".It played out like it did and God did remedy it... he sent a savior.There where two commands Given. Adam showed his desire to obey. Eve did not.But the penalty of death had already ben set.emaughn,If you are temple worthy. Listen a little closer to the differences of the Genesis account as played out in the temple next time.
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes,Thats the paradox we are faced with in the Bible Johnny.Their is no paradox ... God wants us to obey and trust him.Theres no question God could have remedied the situation. However... that remedy would have eliminated "free will".I would not have eliminated "free will" ... both Adam and Eve had the choice to obey or disobey their Father.It played out like it did and God did remedy it... he sent a savior. A savior was needed because they didn't obey and trust their Father.Jesus is our example ... Jesus obeyed his Father even if this meant his own death ...
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Exactly... Adam obeyed his Father and it did mean death. (ie "Mulitply")Because to do that he had to remain with a dead woman.Adam chose to obey God.Eve chose death.God remedied the situation with a Savior.
heavymental Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Doesn't this: They could of asked their Father ... he was in the garden with themContradict this? They knew good and evil ... my point is that they knew good and evil but without GodWith God in their presence evil would not exist
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes,Adam obeyed his Father and it did mean death. (ie "Mulitply")I believe this is only speculation on your part ... heavymental writes,With God in their presence evil would not exist Evil existed ... their was Satan.
T-Shirt Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Johnny,I would like to back up a little and ask you a question. What do you think the purpose of the tree of knowledge was? Why did God put it there, if He didn't want them to eat from it? Why did God allow Satan to enter the garden?T-Shirt
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 How is it "speculation". Its what the scriptures say.1 Tim 414 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.Adam new exactly what he was doing when he Ate. Paul sees this in the next verse.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and choliness with sobriety.Adam knew the only way to keep the command to Multiply and bare "fruit" was to remain with the woman. He couldnt really transgress any law because it had already been broken by his other half. His help meet. So IF Adam had not have eaten he would have broke the commandment to be one with his wife.He Obeyed Gods command to remain with his wife and cleave unto her and none other.Adam listened to God... Eve listened to the serpent.
emaughan Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 If you are temple worthy. Listen a little closer to the differences of the Genesis account as played out in the temple next time. Yes I'm a "card carrying Mormon" I've been running the scene through my head as I work on my antifungal power point I have to give on Tuesday. I'm not sure what you are thinking of, but I promise I will play close attention next time I attend.
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Pay attention to the dialog of Eve after the fruit is eatn.
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 T-Shirt writes,What do you think the purpose of the tree of knowledge was? Why did God put it there, if He didn't want them to eat from it? Why did God allow Satan to enter the garden?As I mentioned earlier ... the tree provided the opportunity for opposition.Zakuska writes,How is it "speculation". Its what the scriptures say.It is speculation because you said that it meant death (multiplie) ... you don't know if it meant death if Adam would have obeyed his Father's commandment ...
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 How could Adam remain with the woman God gave him and COMMANDED HIM TO REMAIN WITH AND "BE ONE WITH HER" if she was dead?For him to keep the commandment of God... which was to be one with his wife. He had to eat?He showed obedience by eating and being one with his wife, Eve chose to beleive the Devil and showed disobedience and she was not one with her husband. It was her transgression.God provided a remedy.
T-Shirt Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 T-Shirt writes,What do you think the purpose of the tree of knowledge was? Why did God put it there, if He didn't want them to eat from it? Why did God allow Satan to enter the garden?As I mentioned earlier ... the tree provided the opportunity for opposition. For what purpose?T-Shirt
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes,How could Adam remain with the woman God gave him and COMMANDED HIM TO REMAIN WITH AND "BE ONE WITH HER" if she was dead?If my wife dies, I am free to marry again ...God provided a remedy.Maybe God could provide another wife ..
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 "Maybe..."Now there is some speculation if I ever saw it. When your wife dies are you "one" with her?Adam chose to be "one" with his wife... Showing God his hearts desire to obey God.Eve was tricked into death and the remedy was a Savior and bearing of Chilren. Which was Gods command linked to being one with her husband.Adam showed obedience... Eve showed niavity.
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 T-Shirt writes,For what purpose?For the purpose of growth.
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes,Now there is some speculation if I ever saw it. That is my point ... we do not know what would of happened if Adam had obeyed.
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 But theres the paradox.If he hadnt have eatn the fruit he would have disobeyed the command to Mulitply and remain with his wife.He would have disobeyed either way. Then he would have ended up dead as well anyway.He showed a desire for obedience by remaining with his wife... even though that ment death.He did the only remaining thing he could do to obey. If he hadnt' both of God commandments would have been broken. Instread of just one.
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