The LDS gospel of eternal progression-

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

He would have disobeyed either way.

God knows our intentions and our heart. It was not his fault that Eve disobeyed. God's know's Adam's desire.

[Zakuska]

Yes God does know Adams Desire... and that was to obey the commandment that hadnt been broken.

If he hadnt done it. Both commandments of God would have been null and void and God would have had to destroy him, and start all over. He was dead either way. So he chose life. w/death

But theres the other part of the paradox. If Adam hadnt have died. he would not have gained Knowledge of Good and evil. (Gen 3:22)

Death is an intrinsic part of the plan.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Death is an intrinsic part of the plan. 

God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living... It was through the devil's envy that death entered the world

[Zakuska]

Are you sure about that Johhny?

Jer. 13: 16

16 Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Isa. 45: 7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Did not God make the devil? He is directly responsible for death.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Are you sure about that Johhny?

That is what scripture says:

Romans 5

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Wis.1

[13] For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

Wis.2

[24] Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.

[Zakuska]

No thats what Pauls interpretation of scripture says. But it contradicts Isaiah and Jeremiah.

So who are we to beleive?

If you dont give Glory to the Lord he'll kill ya.

God created the devil and death so he is directly responsible for it.

[Guest johnny_cat]

Johnny,

How does the introduction of Satan and evil bring growth to Adam and Eve? Especially if one can gain wisdom (grow) just by asking God? Please clarify.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

God created the devil and death so he is directly responsible for it.

God created Satan a good angel. Satan wanted to be like God.

Death was contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.

[Zakuska]

Remember God had already introduced death to Adam and Eve.

Gen 2:17

Sounds Like Paul is blaming the wrong person for introducing death into the Garden.

Death is the consiquence. But God created death.

Second... Satan didn't want to be "like" God. He wanted to be God himself and above God. (Isaiah 14:13)

[johnny]

johnny_cat  writes,

How does the introduction of Satan and evil bring growth to Adam and Eve? Especially if one can gain wisdom (grow) just by asking God? Please clarify.

God does not want to impose the good, but wants free beings.... There is a certain usefulness to temptation. Temptation teaches us to know ourselves.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Remember God had already introduced death to Adam and Eve.

Introduced but death was not manifesteed.

[Zakuska]

Johnny,

God does not want to impose the good, but wants free beings....

Exactly... Satans Plan was to put eveyone under himself.

Of Course it wasnt manifested... not until they where kicked out of the Garden.

[Guest johnny_cat]

God does not want to impose the good, but wants free beings.... There is a certain usefulness to temptation. Temptation teaches us to know ourselves.

Couldn't they be free without the presence of evil and temptation? I thought you said that if we want wisdom and knowledge, we can ask God for it (at least Adam and Eve could). Why would temptation be necessary for knowledge? Wouldn't that make evil the source of knowledge without God? I'm trying hard to understand, but I don't.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Exactly... Satans Plan was to put eveyone under himself.

Exactly ...

[Zakuska]

Gods plan is to make every equal. Joint heirs.

[johnny]

johnny_cat  writes,

Couldn't they be free without the presence of evil and temptation?

With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, SCG III, 71]

[Zakuska]

But there inlies a problem. Why create death in the first place... if it didn't have an intrinsic part to play in the plan.

It was a necessary step to learn good from evil.

[Guest johnny_cat]

But there inlies a problem. Why create death in the first place... if it didn't have an intrinsic part to play in the plan.

And why create evil for that matter?

With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, SCG III, 71]

I read this as saying, "We don't really know, other than it's part of God's plan." Ultimately, your theology has the same problem you ascribe to ours: you have no good explanation for why evil exists.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

But there inlies a problem. Why create death in the first place... if it didn't have an intrinsic part to play in the plan. 

With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, SCG III, 71]

It was a necessary step to learn good from evil. 

Again ... death was contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin (Rom 5:12).

[Guest johnny_cat]

Again ... death was contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin (Rom 5:12).

You have half of it right. This scripture says that death entered by sin; it does not mention that such death was contrary to God's plan.

[Zakuska]

Again God created evil and presented it to man.

And gave him the chance to choose.

It has a specific roll to play in the plan, and God is responsible for it.

We learn that purpose when God says:

Gen. 3: 22

22

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Again God created evil and presented it to man.

God created a good angel who turned evil.

We learn that purpose when God says:

That is not the purpose ... it is simply stating it.

Death entered the world. Verified by the rest of the chapter.

Again death entered because of sin.

[Zakuska]

Yes the sin of Eve.

Adam could not have gained the Knowledge of evil without eating the fruit.

There is a reason for the saying "carnal knowledge" and knowing ones wife.

Not that the forbidden fruit has anything to do with sexual sin.

[Guest johnny_cat]

But you're still not at the heart of the matter, johnny. Why did God create "the good angel who turned evil" and then let him into the garden in the first place? Why is evil necessary for our growth? Could not God help us grow without having evil? What is the purpose of creating an imperfect world, with all its attendant suffering and misery?

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Adam could not have gained the Knowledge of evil without eating the fruit.

That is your view ... my view is that Adam could have asked God.