Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 At least my view is backed up by the context of the immediate text. You are reaching clear for James. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 johnny_cat writes,But you're still not at the heart of the matter, johnny. Why did God create "the good angel who turned evil" and then let him into the garden in the first place? With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, SCG III, 71] Why is evil necessary for our growth? Choice is necessary for our growth.What is the purpose of creating an imperfect world, with all its attendant suffering and misery? With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes, You are reaching clear for James. And Adam just had to reach and ask his Father ... Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Except for the fact that his Father wasnt there and intentionally left him there alone to deal with the choice.What where you saying about "free agency"?If Adam would have asked God it would not have been a choice nor a test. Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 And Adam just had to reach and ask his Father ...What I don't understand is, if Adam simply had to ask the Father to grow and become like him, why is evil necessary for growth? Is evil necessary for there to be a choice? Why would God create a world in a state of journeying?I would like to see some scriptural support for this, not that I reject Aquinas out of hand, but it would help. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I actually agree with what Aquinas says. And I know scripture to back it up.I dont think Johhny realizes what it is he really says. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes, Except for the fact that his Father wasnt there and intentionally left him there to deal with the choice.He could of obeyed his Father and left the tree and then asked his Father.What where you saying about "free agency"?Again ... Adam could have freely not eaten the fruit and then proceeded to ask his Father.If Adam would have asked God it would not have been a choice. The choice is that he would of not eaten of the tree. Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I don't have a problem with Aquinas, either, as in this he seems to be pretty close to LDS belief about the need for opposition. My problem with Johnny's explanation is that he never deals with the reasons for it consistently. On the one hand, Adam can grow and learn simply by asking, and on the other, evil and imperfection must exist for him to grow. How can both statements be true? Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 johnny_cat writes,I would like to see some scriptural support for this, not that I reject Aquinas out of hand, but it would help. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 The choice is that he would of not eaten of the tree.If he hadn't been tempted, could he still have made a choice? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 And his wife would have died and he would have watched her wither away, then Adam would be a lone man on the face of the earth for eternity.Actually... by letting his wife dye like that and not remaining with her sin would be introduced into the world anyway and then comes death.Theres that dastardly Paradox again.Either Choice lead to death.Hint: Johnny... Focus on Eve.Lets consider another scenario.Eve doesnt eat. What then? Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Wait a minute. You said that imperfection and sin were contrary to God's plan, and now you are quoting Aquinas to say that they were part of the plan all along. Which is it? Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 johnny_cat writes,On the one hand, Adam can grow and learn simply by asking, and on the other, evil and imperfection must exist for him to grow. How can both statements be true? Must exist ... but this does not mean that Adam has to become evil also.If he hadn't been tempted, could he still have made a choice? Choice requires choice ... his choice was obey or disobey ... Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Choice requires choice ... his choice was obey or disobey ... Would he not have had that same choice if Satan hadn't been around? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Yes that was his choice... "obey or disobey" but you are forgetting half of the equation.EVE.There are two variable here johnny.ADAM EVEWhen eve made her Choice if Adam didnt make the same choice his actions would have been sin. Death enters.Paradox.If Adam makes a choice if eve doesnt make the same choice her actions would be sin. Death enters.Paradox.So lets say eve chooses to not eat the fruit... adam chooses the same. They dont sin. What now?Or...Eve eats and adam eats. They sin. Death enters. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 johnny_cat writes,>Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Wait a minute. You said that imperfection and sin were contrary to God's plan, and now you are quoting Aquinas to say that they were part of the plan all along. Which is it? I said death was contrary to God's plan ... I did not say "imperfection and sin were contrary to God's plan" ... imperfection is part of the plan because it is a journey toward perfection. Link to comment
Del March Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 his choice was obey or disobey ... Actually, no, his choice was obey or obey. Obey the commandment not to eat of the fruit, or obey the commandment to be one with Eve. Whatever his decision, he was bound to disobey one of those commandments.Del Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes, Eve doesnt eat. What then? They grow and journey to perfection. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Del March writes, Actually, no, his choice was obey or obey. Obey the commandment not to eat of the fruit, or obey the commandment to be one with Eve. Whatever his decision, he was bound to disobey one of those commandments. This has already been discussed ... see earlier posts. Link to comment
Tanyan Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 then her "DNA" was assimulated . Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 No... they dont grow and go to perfection. Because they are already in a polar state. There is no movement or "Journey".No action and reaction. They are stagnate.An object at rest... stays at rest... until acted upon by outside forces.To journey to perfection implies they are at a state something lower than perfection. Link to comment
Del March Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Del March writes, Actually, no, his choice was obey or obey. Obey the commandment not to eat of the fruit, or obey the commandment to be one with Eve. Whatever his decision, he was bound to disobey one of those commandments.This has already been discussed ... see earlier posts. I've seen them. But the fact that you insist Adam could have not disobeyed shows that you have not yet understood that crucial point.You know, funnily enough, I believe that Adam could indeed have waited for God to tell him what to do. However, because Adam and Eve were bound together, I also believe that the end result would have been the same.Del Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes, No... the dont grow and go to perfection. Because they are already in a polar state. There is no movement or Journey. Their would be movement to multiple as they were man and wife. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Del March writes, I've seen them. But the fact that you insist Adam could have not disobeyed shows that you have not yet understood that crucial point. What is the crucial point?What do you mean that I "insist Adam could have not disobeyed" ... could you provide my quote? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 But does multiplying for eternity and filling up the Garden of Eden and bursting it at the seems "equate to journeying to perfection"?Journeying to perfection indicates being created or placed in a state of less perfectness.I thougt God said man was "good" after he created him?Without death there would be no Journey. Link to comment
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