The LDS gospel of eternal progression-

[Zakuska]

Yes that description does fit nicey and I agree with most of it... except for the fact... the Potter doesnt make things from nothing. He goes and gathers the clay and material to make the pot. (The human Body)

Likewise God takes of the divine nature or spirit/essence and pours it into the man. The divine nature always existed. Isnt God within us?

Luke 17: 21 and many others.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

the Potter doesnt make things from nothing. He goes and gathers the clay and material to make the pot. (The human Body)

The God of the Bible can make things from nothing.

The Mormon God can not make things from nothing.

Likewise God takes of the divine nature or spirit/essence and pours it into the man. The divine nature always existed. Isnt God within us?

Men can partake of the divine nature when they are born again or become adopted sons of God.

[Zakuska]

No the God in your mind can conjure things into existance like a magician. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, Who is the Potter, did not do this. He formed the heaven and earth out of a watery chaos. Even ask Peter.

Men are already of the divine Nature... "Ye are Gods... and all of your are children of the most high". (Psalsm 82; John 10:34-36; Acts 17:26) It just takes someone to come to them in their fallen state and remind them who they really are and begget them again through the gospel and stand up and claim their birth right.

Some day we will recieve of the elixcer of life to get rid of the effects of the forbidden fruit so death will be put under our feet like all the gods before us..

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

No the God in your mind can conjure things into existance like a magician. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, Who is the Potter, did not do this. He formed the heaven and earth out of a watery chaos. Even ask Peter.

He created the water chaos and formed ... but again this is not the topic of this thread.

Men are already of the divine Nature... "Ye are Gods... and all of your are children of the most high". (Psalsm 82; John 10:34-36; Acts 17:26)

If they are already the divine Nature why is it necessary for them to partake of the divine nature ... why is it necessary to be adopted ... why is it necessary to "become" a son of God .. why is it necessary to be born again?

It just takes someone to come to them in their fallen state and remind them who they really are and begget them again through the gospel and stand up and claim their birth right.

Clearly the bible does not teach "remind them" ... what happens when someone is begotten through the gospel ... are they the same creature or a new creature?

Some day we will recieve of the elixcer of life to get rid of the effects of the forbidden fruit so death will be put under our feet like all the gods before us..

The Old and New Testament preach one God ... it preaches that what is "called" gods .. but this is a topic for another thread.

[Tanyan]

Johnny, Still reading scripture through the "Western", Neo/Platonic/Gnostic/Hellenistic sunglasses I see. No Original Eastern Doctrine/Thought/Practice/Teaching . And pleasssssse, no endless catholic quotes, thanks. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[johnny]

Tanyan  writes,

Johnny, Still reading scripture through the "Western", Neo/Platonic/Gnostic/Hellenistic sunglasses I see. No Original Eastern Doctrine/Thought/Practice/Teaching . And pleasssssse, no endless catholic quotes, thanks. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan. 

Tanyan, you might want to read the following teachings to help you better understand the scriptures, johnny

http://comparing-views.com/book/toc.htm

[Tanyan]

Still playing the self reference game again eh Johnny ?. As if we have not read /seen this before. And all these topics have been responded to adinfinentum. Once again you avoided the Question. You are still locked in the cell of the above referenced Titles. You self referenced yourself again . Thanks for supporting our viewpoint . Eastern Johnny not Western.

[johnny]

Tanyan  writes,

Thanks for supporting our viewpoint

Clearly I do not support the Mormon viewpoint because the Mormon viewpoint is not supported by the Bible and contradicts the Bible.

[Tanyan]

DITO ! Johnny, how about contacting Alpha and Omega Ministries in Phoenix Arizona, along with Chick Publications in So.Ca. and ask them if Catholicisms is Christian?. There answer will be the same you gave about us above. Thanks.

[Tanyan]

Tanyan

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

He created the water chaos and formed ... but again this is not the topic of this thread.

Wrong again... he formed the heaven and the earth out of the already existant watery chaos.

If they are already the divine Nature why is it necessary for them to partake of the divine nature ... why is it necessary to be adopted ... why is it necessary to "become" a son of God .. why is it necessary to be born again?

Well.... DUH... because of the fall. That's what made the Atonement necessary.

Men where sons of God and through the fall they became sons of the devil... and needed to be "born again" into Gods family. Man was immortal when he was born of God. (Luke 3:38; Job 15:7) But the fall made him mortal.

Is that not exactly what St. Maximus said right here:

Created in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God". [st. Maximus the Confessor, Ambigua: PG 91, 1156C; cf. Gen 3:5] (CCC398).

http://comparing-views.com/book/c09.htm

You arnt keeping your story straight Johnny.

Clearly the bible does not teach "remind them" ... what happens when someone is begotten through the gospel ... are they the same creature or a new creature?

There spirit is the same substance/essence that God formed it in... but their sinful nature is hopefully gone. THey where created Divine by God. THe seed was sown into the earth. The lord of the vinyard comes and nuritoius them.

The Old and New Testament preach one God ... it preaches that what is "called" gods .. but this is a topic for another thread.

Both NT and OT promise men they will become gods. Children of a King. Joint Heirs of the divine nature with Christ.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Wrong again... he formed the heaven and the earth out of the already existant watery chaos.

Again we differ but this is off-topic ...

Men where sons of God and through the fall they became sons of the devil... and needed to be "born again" into Gods family. Man was immortal when he was born of God. (Luke 3:38; Job 15:7) But the fall made him mortal.

What do you mean by "sons of God" ... do you mean sons by nature ... why is it then necessary to be adopted?

You arnt keeping your story straight Johnny.

My story is straight ...

We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his Resurrection. (CCC654).

Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The Son of God is "begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father" (CCC465).

There spirit is the same substance/essence that God formed it in... but their sinful nature is hopefully gone. THey where created Divine by God. THe seed was sown into the earth. The lord of the vinyard comes and nuritoius them.

If men were created divine by God why do men need to "partake" of the divine nature if they already are of the divine nature?

Both NT and OT promise men they will become gods. Children of a King. Joint Heirs of the divine nature with Christ.

Earlier you said men were created divine, if so why the promise of becoming gods?

[Zakuska]

Because of the fall Johnny.

Gen 2

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit they died... becoming unlike God, and losing immortality. But at the same time they became Like God knowing Good and evil.

Thus a savior was sent to restore them to their prior God like Status. Thats exactly what St. Maximus is saying and what the Bible says.

Adam is the son of God by Nature and not by Adoption either. However... his eating the fruit killed him.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Because of the fall Johnny.

But doesn't Mormonism teach that the fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and that it brought great blessings.

Thus a savior was sent to restore them to their prior God like Status. Thats exactly what St. Maximus is saying and what the Bible says.

I thought Mormonism taught eternal progression. What you are describing sounds like restoration which sounds more like historical Christinity.

Adam is the son of God by Nature and not by Adoption either. However... his eating the fruit killed him.

After Adam's fall why does Adam need the spirit of adoption if Adam is a son of God by Nature?

Rom.8

[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

[15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph.1

[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

But doesn't Mormonism teach that the fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and that it brought great blessings.

It was a necessary step. If they hadn't have tasted of death they would have never have known life. The only way to attain the "knowledge" of Good and Evil and become like God in that respect... was to eat the fruit. (Gen 3:22)

I thought Mormonism taught eternal progression. What you are describing sounds like restoration which sounds more like historical Christinity.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

It was a necessary step. If they hadn't have tasted of death they would have never have known life. The only way to attain the "knowledge" of Good and Evil and become like God in that respect... was to eat the fruit. (Gen 3:22)

I would disagree it was a necessary step. Adam did not have to suffer and die. Men attain "knowledge" by asking God, men do not attain "knowledge" by eating fruit.

We do teach eternal progression. I was unaware that "christianity" taught a restoration of anything.

Historical Christinity teaches that Adam was created in a state of holiness and was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. All that Jesus did was to restore fallen man to his original vocation.

He was the Son of God by birth.

He was "son of God" in the sense that God created him but he was not "son of God" in terms of glory like the "only" Son of God. Jesus is "only" Son of God by nature, before the incarnation "the Word" was God.

[Zakuska]

If Adam didnt have to suffer and Die... Why put the tree in the Garden in the first place?

To become like God... they had to chose evil. There has to be opposition in all things or growth does not happen.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

If Adam didnt have to suffer and Die... Why put the tree in the Garden in the first place?

To become like God... they had to chose evil. There has to be opposition in all things.

The tree provides the opportunity for opposition. Adam had the free will to obey or disobey his Father.

You say to become like God you have chose evil ... the Bible reveals to become like God you have chose obedience.

[Zakuska]

God says that they knew evil when they ate the fruit.

Gen 3:22.

Without becoming a sinner... they could never be a saint.

Yes obedience to God is an important part of salvation.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

God says that they knew evil when they ate the fruit.

What is your point ... they suffered and died because they disobeyed their father's command.

Without becoming a sinner... they could never be a saint.

Jesus obeyed his Father ... Jesus did not have to become a sinner to become a saint.

[Zakuska]

But Jesus isnt an ordinary man now is he?

Even he needed Baptism to fuffill all rigtheousness and obey Gods requirements for salvation.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

But Jesus isnt an ordinary man now is he?

Are you saying that ordinary men should become sinners so that they can become a saint?

Even he needed Baptism to fuffill all rigtheousness and obey Gods requirements for salvation.

That is my point ... Adam needed to obey his Father's command.

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

What is your point ... they suffered and died because they disobeyed their father's command.

That they did...

But in order to recieve the knowledge that their father had they had to suffer and die.

Hmmm. Maybe God did have a mortal probation in some distant aeon of eternity past. According to God himself.... To get his knowledge you have to die.

Are you saying that ordinary men should become sinners so that they can become a saint?

Are we not all, already sinners?

Romans 3:10

That is my point ... Adam needed to obey his Father's command.

Yes Adam did need to obey... but to get the Knowledge that God has. They had to succumb to death even Christ had to die.

So that we might be made alive.

its a paradox Johnny... of Biblical purportions.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

But in order to recieve the knowledge that their father had they had to suffer and die.

Clearly the Bible does not reveal this ... why didn't they simply ask their father for this wisdom?

If they asked their father like James says then they wouldn't have to disobey their Father's command.

Are we not all, already sinners?

All men fall short of the glory of God because of Adam's disobedience.

Yes Adam did need to obey... but to get the Knowledge that God has. They had to succumb to death even Christ had to die.

So to get the knowledge that God has you have disobey God ... clearly this isn't in the Bible?

[Zakuska]

Gen 3:22

By eating the fruit they became like the "Gods".

Its a paradox Johnny.