johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, "Breathing out" is a metpahor. As breath is for spirit.Why would you then believe that "the breath of life" is a Mormon soul that is inside this huge Mormon God that is filled with all these preexistent souls?the mechanism is not given.The mechanism is given in Zech 12:1 ... it says " formeth the spirit of man within him" ... in comparision you are talking about a pre-existent spirit.What God makes is eternal. And it has always existed. God creates an immortal soul immediately. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 If a soul is truley Immortal it cannot be created or destroyed... only turned from one form to another.If it had a beggining it will have an end. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, If a soul is truley Immortal it cannot be created or destroyed... only turned from one form to another.What scripture would support this idea? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Scripture? Its good Logic.Is not God the beging and the end. Isnt Christ as well.Since Christ was the first of Gods creation for him to be alph and omega as he claims his breath of life would have always had to of existed and always will exist. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, Scripture? Its good Logic.That is my point ... scripture does not reveal what you described ... Since Christ was the first of Gods creation for him to be alph and omega as he claims his breath of life would have always had to of existed and always will exist. Prior to Christ's incarnation he was "the Word" and "the Word" was God ... man was not "the Word" and man was not God prior to his being born here on earth. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Johnny,Prior to Christ's incarnation he was "the Word" and "the Word" was God ... man was not "the Word" and man was not God prior to his being born here on earth.But theres where your logic falls apart. Apparantly mans spirit isnt eternal? is that what you mean to say? Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, But theres where your logic falls apart. Apparantly mans spirit isnt eternal? is that what you mean to say?That is where the scripture's support me. Man's soul is immortal. The soul is created immediately. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 The soul is formed inside God thus it is eternal. It didnt have a beginning nor an end.You must have missed this.BARALet Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, The soul is formed inside God thus it is eternal. It didnt have a beginning nor an end Early you said that Adam became a soul and you would agree that Zech 12:1 says the Lord "formeth the spirit of man within him" Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 You are still mixing "ex nihilo" which has no place in the hebrew bible.God "forms" mans spirit inside himself (ie inside God)"Form" does not conote creation from nothing or "immedialty". Form is to take something that exists and mold it (as a potter does) into something else,In the Beginning?If the Earth was formed earlier, then what exactly does "in the beginning" mean? In the English translation the phrase seems straightforward; it means beginning at the first. But the Hebrew again conveys a lot more than just that.When you study books written by Bible scholars, you realize that the phrase is much more complex than it might otherwise appear. In fact almost any commentary you pick up reveals that the scholar has struggled with what the phrase means or, in the case of translators, exactly what should be conveyed. This comes about because of the original Hebrew compound word used in this phrase: be-reshith).The noun reshith always needs a modifier in order for its actual meaning to be seen. It can mean "beginning" but often it means something more akin to "previously" in English. For example in Job 42:12,So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning [reshith].To read this as the actual beginning of Job makes no sense. It obviously isn Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, You are still mixing "ex nihilo" which has no place in the hebrew bible. "ex nihilo" is in the Bible see the following post for more discussion since this is not the topic of this thread.http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=185034God "forms" mans spirit inside himself (God)"Form" does not conote creation from nothing or "immedialty".You say that God "forms" mans spirit inside himself (God) ... How big is this Mormon God? ... I thought this Mormon God was the size of a normal man ... Are you saying that Mormon souls are inside a Mormon God and he breathes them out? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Its not Johnny,Did you read anything in my last post or just the parts you wanted to?Did you not see these Giant men from all over the earth? Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, Did you read anything in my last post or just the parts you wanted to? Again "ex nihilo" is not the topic of this thread ... did you read the link I posted ... if you did you would understand how "ex nihilo" is relates to " formeth the spirit of man within him". Did you not see these Giant men from all over the earth? How does Giant men relate to the Mormon teaching that man prexisted? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 But thats the thing... there was no "nothingness" before God. otherwise he cant exist.God is God.Thats the best you've Got?if it had a beginning it will have an end. For the soul to be Immortal it cant have a beginning. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, But thats the thing... there was no "nothingness" before God. otherwise he cant exist. Their was "nothingness" in terms of creation but God is the creator. God is God.Thats the best you've Got?I could also say that God is not a man like you and me ... I could also say that God a creator and men are his creation. if it had a beginning it will have an end. For the soul to be Immortal it cant have a beginning. The Bible says "in the end" ...The soul is created immediatily and is immortal ... that is what the Bible reveals. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Yes.. the potter who "forms" the void and formless clay into a creation. Not Hudieny with a puff of smoke and theres a dove.I could also say that God is not a man like you and me Of course God is not a man like you and me... now... doesnt mean that in some distant eaon of time that he wasnt. I could also say that God a creator and men are his creation.I could also say that men will grow into what God is. With the help of Christ. Men are god in embryo.The Bible says "in the end" ... Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 The Bible says that man's spirit is formed within the manSays you... So now your are admiting that God is a man?I like your next verse too... Why do you shy away from quoting it?29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead crise not at all? why are they then baptized for the ddead?30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, > The Bible says that man's spirit is formed within the manSays you... So now your are admiting that God is a man?Says the Bible ... Zech 12:1 says "formeth the spirit of man within him". Jesus is a man ... "the Word" was God ... "the Word" was made flesh ... God was manifest in the flesh. I like your next verse too... Why do you shy away from quoting it? Why would I shy away from quoting it ... you asked me about "the end" ... verses 29-31 do not talk about the end. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead crise not at all? why are they then baptized for the ddead?30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. Since this is off-topic I would suggest the link for more information:http://comparing-views.com/book/c21.htm Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Says the Bible ... Zech 12:1 says "formeth the spirit of man within him". Except for the fact... you havent address who the "him" is refering to.It can be read 2 ways.The subject or the "him" is the Lord. The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith7 the LORD, which stretcheth forth6 the heavens, and layeth the foundation5 of the earth, and formeth6 the spirit of man within him.He create the heaven and the earth foudation and he froms mas spirit within himself. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes, Except for the fact... you havent address who the "him" is refering to.I have repeatedly said who "him" is ... I said earlier "The Bible says that man's spirit is formed within the man" It can be read 2 ways. I read it the way it fits the context of the verse ... "him" is "man" ... "him" is not God. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 But that doesnt fit the context either, because you shovel in the preconcieved notion of "immediatly"."form" doesn't conote "immediate" it conotes a potter taking preexistant clay and turning it into a pot.What does the hebrew say underneith it?http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/too...&Go.x=31&Go.y=6Or pouring a liquid in to fill it up... or blowing smoke into someones nostrils.The Liquid the clay and the smoke already exist. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Zakuska writes, But that doesnt fit the context either, because you shovel in the preconcieved notion of "immediatly"."form" doesn't conote "immediate" it conotes a potter taking preexistant clay and turning it into a pot.It fit's nicely ... Gen 1:1 reveals God, the potter" creates the clay from nothingness ... Zech 12:1 reveals that God, the potter, forms the clay or forms man's spirit within the man ... Gen 2:7 reveals that God, the creator, brethes life into the man, his creation, and he becomes a living soul or the clay has life. Link to comment
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