The Quiet before the Storm

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not so.  The LDS Church certainly practiced polygyny, but that practice did in no sense redefine marriage in the USA.  It was certainly unacceptable in the USA, even if practiced in other countries.  Moreover, the LDS never asserted any connection to the practice in other countries (Oriental and Middle Eastern), but only with ancient biblical practice.

We have talked back and forth long enough for me to at this point agree to disagree.  I remember when the Church was leading the charge to take away the civil rights of gay couples to marry in California.  If you had been here during this time, the common comment on the Mormon Church leading the charge on Prop 8 ran along the lines of "If any church was going to protest an alternative marriage to one man one woman, it shouldn't be the Mormon Church.  So I am far from being alone in the belief that practicing polygamy in the United States was against how marriage was legally defined in this country. I never claimed polygamy is not a marriage in other cultures and other times.

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A practice is not a "new definition," unless that practice is acceptable.  Since polygyny was already illegal as bigamy, your claim is completely hollow.  There was no redefinition of marriage in the USA at that time.  The LDS Church hit a brick wall.  No inroads were made.  In retrospect one can now see that the Reynolds decision and the Edmunds Act were both wrong Constitutionally under the Equal Protection Clause, but the Supreme Court was not very enlightened in those days -- as we can see also in Dred Scott.  It would take more than another century to allow the 14th Amendment to take hold in a number of areas.  In the meantime, deep-seated prejudices reigned supreme.

I do agree with you that the Supreme Court got the Reynolds ruling wrong.  I hope that some day in the near future, the Church will once again be able to practice polygamy if it wishes.

 

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The "country realized" no such thing.  It was the U.S. Supreme Court which did the recognizing.  The people had voted against it, and U.S. law (passed by Congress) only recognized marriage between one man and one woman.  That's Federal Law, and it was supported by Barack Obama.  Once the U.S. Supreme Court spoke, the Federal and State laws crumbled.  Why?  Because no vote of the majority can hold against the Constitution.  The entire country fell into line, as it should have.  Civil rights had become much more expansive.

Nor under the Equal Protection Clause.  In fact, Islam is practiced widely in the USA, and one of its provisions is that plural marriage is legal.  The U.S. prohibition of plural marriage is wrong Constitutionally under both the Free Exercise of Religion Clause and under the Equal Protection Clause.  It has nothing to do with how someone feels personally about a particular practice.  The majority popular view is irrelevant under the Constitution.

Well, actually virtually every single district court in the country ruled in favor of gay marriage under the Equal Protection clause prior to the Supreme Court ruling.  If you remember, gay marriage was even ruled legal in the state of Utah by, I might add, a Mormon judge, prior to the Supreme Court ruling.

Quite honestly, none of this matters to me and probably not to you as well.  We both know the history of polygamy. from biblical times, current times and as it was practiced by the Church. We also both know why gay marriage is legal in this country.  I am sorry you can not see the point I have been trying to make.  But hey, it happens sometimes when very opposite views exist.

Edited February 21, 2021 by california boy

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

We have talked back and forth long enough for me to at this point agree to disagree.  I remember when the Church was leading the charge to take away the civil rights of gay couples to marry in California.  If you had been here during this time, the common comment on the Mormon Church leading the charge on Prop 8 ran along the lines of "If any church was going to protest an alternative marriage to one man one woman, it shouldn't be the Mormon Church.  ....................

While it is true that the LDS Church adopted a hypocritical stance in supporting Prop 8, and the irony is as you paint it, it is not true that the LDS led that charge -- they were only minor players in California (I was there), where it was the Catholic Church and the Black Church which were the primary powers in that position.  The LDS simply did not have the numbers to be that influential.  Yet you have always made that false claim.  The LDS Church is not the Great Satan, and it was even a good thing that these political and legal contretemps took place, because it set things up for a more powerful denouement at the U.S. Supreme Court.  You play the static blame-game, while you should see it as dynamic and processual.

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

I hope that some day in the near future, the Church will once again be able to practice polygamy if it wishes.

I think that is highly unlikely.  However, the Muslims and FLDS, and some others will be delighted.

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well, actually virtually every single district court in the country ruled in favor of gay marriage under the Equal Protection clause prior to the Supreme Court ruling.  If you remember, gay marriage was even ruled legal in the state of Utah by, I might add, a Mormon judge, prior to the Supreme Court ruling.

Quite honestly, none of this matters to me and probably not to you as well.  We both know the history of polygamy. from biblical times, current times and as it was practiced by the Church. We also both know why gay marriage is legal in this country.  I am sorry you can not see the point I have been trying to make.  But hey, it happens sometimes when very opposite views exist.

I think that our views are ultimately very similar, except that you don't understand history.

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

While it is true that the LDS Church adopted a hypocritical stance in supporting Prop 8, and the irony is as you paint it, it is not true that the LDS led that charge -- they were only minor players in California (I was there), where it was the Catholic Church and the Black Church which were the primary powers in that position.  The LDS simply did not have the numbers to be that influential.  Yet you have always made that false claim.  The LDS Church is not the Great Satan, and it was even a good thing that these political and legal contretemps took place, because it set things up for a more powerful denouement at the U.S. Supreme Court.  You play the static blame-game, while you should see it as dynamic and processual.

I think that is highly unlikely.  However, the Muslims and FLDS, and some others will be delighted.

I think that our views are ultimately very similar, except that you don't understand history.

It's not unfair to say the LDS Church led the charge when it specifically directed members over the pulpit to support it with their time and money, which resulted in raising 20 of the 39 million for it and in the vast majority of early door-to-door canvassers being LDS.

I don't recall CB calling the LDS Church The Great Satan, either.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It's not unfair to say the LDS Church led the charge when it specifically directed members over the pulpit to support it with their time and money, which resulted in raising 20 of the 39 million for it and in the vast majority of early door-to-door canvassers being LDS.

False.  All LDS congregations were specifically prohibited from saying anything about the matter over the pulpit, or using church bldgs to organize.  We were only allowed to gather in our private homes and to demonstrate out on the street in favor of Prop 8, which we did.  The Evangelicals, Black preachers, and Catholic priests, on the other hand, did preach on Prop 8 over the pulpit, they demonstrated out on the street, and they voted heavily in favor of Prop 8.  The LDS influence was liliputian in comparison.  None of those groups saw the LDS as leaders of any sort.  Moreover, LDS leaders did not "direct" members to participate.  I was there and saw no such thing.

EDIT:  Meadowchik informs me of the First Presidency letter which initiated that campaign, which was read over the pulpit, but all activities after that were outside of Church bldgs.  All activities were entirely voluntary.

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I don't recall CB calling the LDS Church The Great Satan, either.

His approach was to vastly overestimate the importance of the LDS influence, as though the LDS Church was the proverbial Great Satan, which it most certainly was not.  Such was utterly silly, just based on demographics alone.  Today, for example, California has a population of about 39 million, but only about 756,000 LDS members in that state.   A mere drop in the ocean.  Indeed, only a portion of the available LDS members took any part in that political effort.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[Meadowchik]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  All LDS congregations were specifically prohibited from saying anything about the matter over the pulpit, or using church bldgs to organize.  We were only allowed to gather in our private homes and to demonstrate out on the street in favor of Prop 8, which we did.  The Evangelicals, Black preachers, and Catholic priests, on the other hand, did preach on Prop 8 over the pulpit, they demonstrated out on the street, and they voted heavily in favor of Prop 8.  The LDS influence was liliputian in comparison.  None of those groups saw the LDS as leaders of any sort.  Moreover, LDS leaders did not "direct" members to participate.  I was there and saw no such thing.

As I said:  "It's not unfair to say the LDS Church led the charge when it specifically directed members over the pulpit to support it with their time and money, which resulted in raising 20 of the 39 million for it and in the vast majority of early door-to-door canvassers being LDS:"
 

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The church’s official public reaction began in June 2008. As with Proposition 22, the vehicle was a letter directed to all California wards, and in this case was read over the pulpit on June 29, 2008.80 This letter, titled “Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families,” was signed by the First Presidency. It set out several ideas that would become important parts of the church’s official discourse on the topic, stating:

"In March 2000 California voters overwhelmingly approved a state law providing that “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” The California Supreme Court recently reversed this vote of the people. On November 4, 2008, Californians will vote on a proposed amendment to the California state constitution that will now restore the March 2000 definition of marriage approved by the voters. The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage. A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause. We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage. "  SOURCE

 

This letter (bolded from the letter) was signed by the First Presidency. I underlined the major part supporting my statement.

42 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

His approach was to vastly overestimate the importance of the LDS influence, as though the LDS Church was the proverbial Great Satan, which it most certainly was not.  Such was utterly silly, just based on demographics alone.  Today, for example, California has a population of about 39 million, but only about 756,000 LDS members in that state.   A mere drop in the ocean.  Indeed, only a portion of the available LDS members took any part in that political effort.

It's probably best to abstain from embellishing his point of view and focus on supporting your own. 

[Robert F. Smith]

32 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

As I said:  "It's not unfair to say the LDS Church led the charge when it specifically directed members over the pulpit to support it with their time and money, which resulted in raising 20 of the 39 million for it and in the vast majority of early door-to-door canvassers being LDS:"

This letter (bolded from the letter) was signed by the First Presidency. I underlined the major part supporting my statement.

Thanks for reminding me of that letter, which was indeed read over the pulpit (my memory is hazy, but I think you are correct), but that does not indicate that the LDS Church led the charge, but merely that it was part of a larger coalition.  The other churches had far more cash, and far more people taking action.

32 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It's probably best to abstain from embellishing his point of view and focus on supporting your own. 

He has spent years virtually making that point.  Nothing new in that.  Moreover, there is nothing at all wrong with various groups taking political action.   That is supposedly as American as apple pie.  We have a political and legal system designed to solve such issues.  His making it out to be a great sin is highly inappropriate, just as it would be wrong to fault his position on the 14th Amendment as sinful.  Yet that is the gist of what he has repeatedly done, as though it is some sort of Original Sin.  We need to accept the nature of the political and legal process in this country without rancor.  I am very tired of the blame game.

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Thanks for reminding me of that letter, which was indeed read over the pulpit (my memory is hazy, but I think you are correct), but that does not indicate that the LDS Church led the charge, but merely that it was part of a larger coalition.  The other churches had far more cash, and far more people taking action.

He has spent years virtually making that point.  Nothing new in that.  Moreover, there is nothing at all wrong with various groups taking political action.   That is supposedly as American as apple pie.  We have a political and legal system designed to solve such issues.  His making it out to be a great sin is highly inappropriate, just as it would be wrong to fault his position on the 14th Amendment as sinful.  Yet that is the gist of what he has repeatedly done, as though it is some sort of Original Sin.  We need to accept the nature of the political and legal process in this country without rancor.  I am very tired of the blame game.

When more than half of donations for Prop 8 come from LDS and when the vast majority of early door-to-door canvassers are LDS, it really is not an unfair claim to make. 

The other stuff--your evaluation of his opinion--well that's just your opinion too. He would not be alone in being very concerned about the level of involvement of the LDS Church in this political process (and others). Indeed there were even members who were deeply concerned and fundamentally impacted by it.

To try to diffuse the church's responsibility for its actions as merely a natural part of the process is inaccurate. It was a very deliberate choice, with very serious consequences. Has the the First Presidency expressed regret for the church's actions? As far as I know, it has not and continues to defend its position. So it is not at all unreasonable for people to call out those actions which harmed others especially when it has not held itself accountable for them, much less even admitted it did anything wrong.

 

[california boy]

On 2/20/2021 at 7:22 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

While it is true that the LDS Church adopted a hypocritical stance in supporting Prop 8, and the irony is as you paint it, it is not true that the LDS led that charge -- they were only minor players in California (I was there), where it was the Catholic Church and the Black Church which were the primary powers in that position.  The LDS simply did not have the numbers to be that influential.  Yet you have always made that false claim.  The LDS Church is not the Great Satan, and it was even a good thing that these political and legal contretemps took place, because it set things up for a more powerful denouement at the U.S. Supreme Court.  You play the static blame-game, while you should see it as dynamic and processual.

I think that is highly unlikely.  However, the Muslims and FLDS, and some others will be delighted.

I think that our views are ultimately very similar, except that you don't understand history.

Robert, I can't believe you were in California during Prop 8 and don't believe the LDS church didn't play a LEAD in getting Prop 8 passed.  You know darn good and well Church members gave 20 million dollars, over half of the total contributions to the campaign and 70% of the manpower.  They were standing on the corners every single weekend and sometimes during the week.  Didn't see the Catholics or Black churches standing on the corners with their posters or contributing any significant money to the campaign.  Do you realize there is even a movie and play called Prop 8, the Mormon Proposition.  Do you realize a couple thousand protesters went to the Los Angeles temple and other prominent Mormon buildings right after the election to protest the role the Church played in taking away their civil right to marriage.  And you sit there and say the LDS didn't play a major part in passing Prop 8???  Sorry, I am not going to let you rewrite history.  Unbelievable.

I do agree that passing Prop8 is one of the biggest reason that gay marriage is now legal.  Because all the claims, all the reasons that were fear based about what would happen, got talked about and debated constantly over the next couple of years.  The falseness of those claims and fears were exposed for what they were.  The lawsuits where the defendants of Prop 8 had to factually back up their claims were all rejected by the courts.  The more people heard, the more people became firmly convinced that gay marriage should be legal that their support went to 70% of the population.  Americans rarely agree on something by 70%, especially on an issue as polarizing as gay marriage was.  So yes, I always have thanked the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for their part in getting gay marriage passed.  I in fact started a thread about that very thing after gay marriage became illegal.  

But that does NOT mean that what the Church did was something to be proud of in my opinion.  I also believe this and other actions against the LGBT community is partly responsible for the decline in converts.  So yeah.  People still blame the Church for the leading role it played in getting Prop 8 passed.  

 

And just for the record, I have never said the Church did not have a right to support Prop 8.  But it seems like its members should be honest about what that support meant to the passing of Prop 8.

Edited February 22, 2021 by california boy

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

Robert, I can't believe you were in California during Prop 8 and don't believe the LDS church didn't play a LEAD in getting Prop 8 passed.  You know darn good and well Church members gave 20 million dollars, over half of the total contributions to the campaign and 70% of the manpower.  They were standing on the corners every single weekend and sometimes during the week.  Didn't see the Catholics or Black churches standing on the corners with their posters or contributing any significant money to the campaign.  Do you realize there is even a movie and play called Prop 8, the Mormon Proposition.  Do you realize a couple thousand protesters went to the Los Angeles temple and other prominent Mormon buildings right after the election to protest the role the Church played in taking away their civil right to marriage.  And you sit there and say the LDS didn't play a major part in passing Prop 8???  Sorry, I am not going to let you rewrite history.  Unbelievable.

I guess it is unbelievable for two reasons:  (1) The LDS Church just has to be so huge and powerful, even in California, that it is the Great Satan, etc. (2) Regular political activity has to be a Satanic plot, rather than a normal part of the political process -- you know, the ballot box.  I know that totalitarian cancel-culture just can't stand that notion, but it is actually completely legitimate.  And Constitutional.  So is legal action in the courts.

It never occurs to angry people that the opinion of a populace might not fit their apriori notions.   As has been repeatedly pointed out, Barack Obama fully supported Federal Law which declared only monogamy between a man and a woman was legal marriage.  Later he quickly got on board the new reality as declared by the U.S. Supreme Court.  You find the political process distasteful, but it is actually completely normal and appropriate to our democracy -- which you seem to reject.

Californians were not swayed by that political process.  They already supported the norms which you hated, but you have to find somebody to blame, so it might as well be those hated, Satanic Mormons.

You glory in the harsh persecution of the Mormons at their L.A. Temple and in getting Mormons fired from their jobs, instead of reflecting on the eventual victory which was achieved via the 14th Amendment.  You are a vengeance seeker, instead of being magnanimous in victory.  Perhaps life for you is just another Quentin Tarantino film where those "evildoers" get their just desserts.

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

I do agree that passing Prop8 is one of the biggest reason that gay marriage is now legal.  Because all the claims, all the reasons that were fear based about what would happen, got talked about and debated constantly over the next couple of years.  The falseness of those claims and fears were exposed for what they were.  The lawsuits where the defendants of Prop 8 had to factually back up their claims were all rejected by the courts.  The more people heard, the more people became firmly convinced that gay marriage should be legal that their support went to 70% of the population.  Americans rarely agree on something by 70%, especially on an issue as polarizing as gay marriage was.  So yes, I always have thanked the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for their part in getting gay marriage passed.  I in fact started a thread about that very thing after gay marriage became illegal.

You talk out of both sides of your mouth.  On the one hand, you admit the facts which we have discussed repeatedly on this board, but at the same time you reject American democracy -- the political and legal process which got us here.  You frankly deny that there was a sea change in American thinking.

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

But that does NOT mean that what the Church did was something to be proud of in my opinion.  I also believe this and other actions against the LGBT community is partly responsible for the decline in converts.  So yeah.  People still blame the Church for the leading role it played in getting Prop 8 passed.  

Yup.  Still playing the mean-spirited blame game, and engaging in Orwellian doublethink.

As to decline in rates of conversion:  They were in decline long before Prop 8 was an issue.  Of course the stats don't mean anything to those whose motivation is vitriol.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

When more than half of donations for Prop 8 come from LDS and when the vast majority of early door-to-door canvassers are LDS, it really is not an unfair claim to make. 

The other stuff--your evaluation of his opinion--well that's just your opinion too. He would not be alone in being very concerned about the level of involvement of the LDS Church in this political process (and others). Indeed there were even members who were deeply concerned and fundamentally impacted by it.

To try to diffuse the church's responsibility for its actions as merely a natural part of the process is inaccurate. It was a very deliberate choice, with very serious consequences. Has the the First Presidency expressed regret for the church's actions? As far as I know, it has not and continues to defend its position. So it is not at all unreasonable for people to call out those actions which harmed others especially when it has not held itself accountable for them, much less even admitted it did anything wrong.

You are suggesting that it is not O.K. to seek policy change at the ballot box, and that is is even skullduggery worthy of blame and even of repentance.  I never see anything wrong with allowing the people to govern themselves, even if I disagree with their opinions.  Candidates and plebiscites usually do not meet with my approval, but I never assume that the system has completely failed when other people disagree with me.

I have gotten some pushback over the years in my frank opinion that the LDS Church was being hypocritical in rejecting gay marriage, when it had been so harshly persecuted for polygyny.  The Brethren were mistaken, just as they were mistaken to ban Black priesthood.  I don't mean that the LDS Church should accept gay marriage within its own ranks, but it has now adopted the more enlightened policy of not trying to outlaw it for the general public.  Would that the Roman Catholic Church would cease trying to put their religious doctrine into American criminal and civil law, something we frequently see in Islamic Sharia Law.

I would much rather that people seek change at the ballot box than by bringing murder and mayhem to the streets -- as we have seen recently.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are suggesting that it is not O.K. to seek policy change at the ballot box, and that is is even skullduggery worthy of blame and even of repentance.  I never see anything wrong with allowing the people to govern themselves, even if I disagree with their opinions.  Candidates and plebiscites usually do not meet with my approval, but I never assume that the system has completely failed when other people disagree with me.

I have gotten some pushback over the years in my frank opinion that the LDS Church was being hypocritical in rejecting gay marriage, when it had been so harshly persecuted for polygyny.  The Brethren were mistaken, just as they were mistaken to ban Black priesthood.  I don't mean that the LDS Church should accept gay marriage within its own ranks, but it has now adopted the more enlightened policy of not trying to outlaw it for the general public.  Would that the Roman Catholic Church would cease trying to put their religious doctrine into American criminal and civil law, something we frequently see in Islamic Sharia Law.

I would much rather that people seek change at the ballot box than by bringing murder and mayhem to the streets -- as we have seen recently.

No, I am not against ballot initiatives, etc... But I am against people hiding their immorality behind politics. It was immoral for the church to try to stop gay marriage. It's campaign harmed people and some still hurt because of it. And it still defends its position and continues such harmful rhetoric. 

I was one of those people who supported the church and opposed gay marriage. I was wrong. I don't feel there is any way for me to begin to reconcile my actions with those I hurt if I had not first apologized for them.

Resistance to admitting one's mistakes is a stumbling block. It generates more mistakes. The Church continues to make more mistakes by not admitting its mistakes and learning from the fact that it makes mistakes.

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

Robert, I can't believe you were in California during Prop 8 and don't believe the LDS church didn't play a LEAD in getting Prop 8 passed.  You know darn good and well Church members gave 20 million dollars, over half of the total contributions to the campaign and 70% of the manpower.  They were standing on the corners every single weekend and sometimes during the week.  Didn't see the Catholics or Black churches standing on the corners with their posters or contributing any significant money to the campaign.  Do you realize there is even a movie and play called Prop 8, the Mormon Proposition.  Do you realize a couple thousand protesters went to the Los Angeles temple and other prominent Mormon buildings right after the election to protest the role the Church played in taking away their civil right to marriage.  And you sit there and say the LDS didn't play a major part in passing Prop 8???  Sorry, I am not going to let you rewrite history.  Unbelievable.

I do agree that passing Prop8 is one of the biggest reason that gay marriage is now legal.  Because all the claims, all the reasons that were fear based about what would happen, got talked about and debated constantly over the next couple of years.  The falseness of those claims and fears were exposed for what they were.  The lawsuits where the defendants of Prop 8 had to factually back up their claims were all rejected by the courts.  The more people heard, the more people became firmly convinced that gay marriage should be legal that their support went to 70% of the population.  Americans rarely agree on something by 70%, especially on an issue as polarizing as gay marriage was.  So yes, I always have thanked the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for their part in getting gay marriage passed.  I in fact started a thread about that very thing after gay marriage became illegal.  

But that does NOT mean that what the Church did was something to be proud of in my opinion.  I also believe this and other actions against the LGBT community is partly responsible for the decline in converts.  So yeah.  People still blame the Church for the leading role it played in getting Prop 8 passed.  

 

And just for the record, I have never said the Church did not have a right to support Prop 8.  But it seems like its members should be honest about what that support meant to the passing of Prop 8.

Yes, I do believe the church and others made it so same sex marriage could even be a possibility. I wonder how much longer it would have taken, had no one said anything, I wonder if there would be SSM now. I wonder if God had a hand in it.  I'm sure God isn't pleased with how the LGBTQ individuals have been harmed beyond anything imagined. 

[california boy]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I guess it is unbelievable for two reasons:  (1) The LDS Church just has to be so huge and powerful, even in California, that it is the Great Satan, etc. (2) Regular political activity has to be a Satanic plot, rather than a normal part of the political process -- you know, the ballot box.  I know that totalitarian cancel-culture just can't stand that notion, but it is actually completely legitimate.  And Constitutional.  So is legal action in the courts.

There is more to winning ballot issues than the number of Mormons voting in California.  That is why campaigns spend millions of dollars.  That is why Church members spend millions of dollars.  And why they got out there every week standing on the corners with their signs and chants.  They were doing all of that to try and win the election.  Why else would they be doing that?  

Please Robert, stop the personal attacks.  You know darn good and well, I have never said there was any Satanic plots.  Take a breath.  Are you really being fair in your accusations against me?  If you are, then point out where I actually said this stiff you are attributing to me.  Time to CFR.  Or stop the personal attacks.

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It never occurs to angry people that the opinion of a populace might not fit their apriori notions.   As has been repeatedly pointed out, Barack Obama fully supported Federal Law which declared only monogamy between a man and a woman was legal marriage.  Later he quickly got on board the new reality as declared by the U.S. Supreme Court.  You find the political process distasteful, but it is actually completely normal and appropriate to our democracy -- which you seem to reject.

What makes you make this accusation against me that I distain the political process.  Show me where I did not agree that the Church had every right to do what it did.  CFR. Or quit making that accusation.  And where did I say Barack Obama did not support gay marriage initially?  Robert, where are you coming with this stuff?

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Californians were not swayed by that political process.  They already supported the norms which you hated, but you have to find somebody to blame, so it might as well be those hated, Satanic Mormons.

If everything the Church did was of no importance to the election, then why did they do it?  

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You glory in the harsh persecution of the Mormons at their L.A. Temple and in getting Mormons fired from their jobs, instead of reflecting on the eventual victory which was achieved via the 14th Amendment.  You are a vengeance seeker, instead of being magnanimous in victory.  Perhaps life for you is just another Quentin Tarantino film where those "evildoers" get their just desserts.

I didn't say I gloried in anything.  I was showing you the facts.  You claimed that the Mormons didn't play any major role in passing Prop 8.  If that is true, why was there such a big backlash against the Church.  Can you answer that rather than attack me personally?

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You talk out of both sides of your mouth.  On the one hand, you admit the facts which we have discussed repeatedly on this board, but at the same time you reject American democracy -- the political and legal process which got us here.  You frankly deny that there was a sea change in American thinking.

Where did I deny there was a sea of change in American thinking?  Didn't I, in fact point out that very thing?  Support for gay marriage went from 30% in America prior to Prop 8 to now, 70%. Come on Robert, stop the attacks on me and read what I actually said.   Again I ask for a CFR where I reject American democracy.  Show me where I actually said the Church did not have a right to participate in the political process.  Where did I say ANYTHING against the political and legal process?  If you can't do that, then STOP saying this and apologize.

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Yup.  Still playing the mean-spirited blame game, and engaging in Orwellian doublethink.

As to decline in rates of conversion:  They were in decline long before Prop 8 was an issue.  Of course the stats don't mean anything to those whose motivation is vitriol.

You keep trying to blame this on me.  I am just pointing out reality to you.  The Mormon Church did play a major role in passing Prop 8.  Honestly if you believe so much that what the Church did was honorable and good, why aren't you proud of the role the Church played in Prop 8 and just admit they were key players in a successful campaign in taking away the civil rights of gay couples to marry.  You haven't denied the facts that I have presented with members donating 20 million dollar contribution 70% of the work force.  Money and grass roots activism is what wins campaigns.  That is why everyone does it every single election.   It is exactly the goal the Church set out to do when they started organizing this whole campaign to support Prop 8. They reached their goal. 

Can you still honestly say the Church did not play a major role in getting Prop 8 passed?  

 

Edit to add.  I have been thinking more about your posts.  I realize you are not disputing the facts that I have presented. What you are doing is just personal attacks and bringing up things I never said or claimed.  What is going on Robert?  This isn't you.  This isn't the guy that supports what is says meticulously with facts and knowledge.  I can't even remember you doing these kinds of groundless projected personal attacks.  Are you ok?  Have I offended you?  Is there something specifically I have actually said that you feel is not true?  If so, just list what I said that is not true.  Maybe that is what we need to concentrate on.  If I am wrong about something I have specifically claimed, then I will gladly admit it and apologize.

Edited February 22, 2021 by california boy

[california boy]

57 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, I do believe the church and others made it so same sex marriage could even be a possibility. I wonder how much longer it would have taken, had no one said anything, I wonder if there would be SSM now. I wonder if God had a hand in it.  I'm sure God isn't pleased with how the LGBTQ individuals have been harmed beyond anything imagined. 

I tend to agree with you.  Maybe in some way Prop 8 and the aftermath helped soften some hearts in the Church that were so hard against those of us that are gay.   I have certainly seen a change of heart in the Church this past 10 years from what it was.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

There is more to winning ballot issues than the number of Mormons voting in California.  That is why campaigns spend millions of dollars.  That is why Church members spend millions of dollars.  And why they got out there every week standing on the corners with their signs and chants.  They were doing all of that to try and win the election.  Why else would they be doing that?  

Please Robert, stop the personal attacks.  You know darn good and well, I have never said there was any Satanic plots.  Take a breath.  Are you really being fair in your accusations against me?  If you are, then point out where I actually said this stiff you are attributing to me.  Time to CFR.  Or stop the personal attacks.

What makes you make this accusation against me that I distain the political process.  Show me where I did not agree that the Church had every right to do what it did.  CFR. Or quit making that accusation.  And where did I say Barack Obama did not support gay marriage initially?  Robert, where are you coming with this stuff?

You were in denial of the complete normalcy of the opposition to gay marriage, so I provided a prime example of exactly that at the national level, and the sea change which resulted.  I thought you might understand that simple fact, which you yourself supported with your 30% statistic.  I was wrong to have made such an assumption.  You are so bonded to cancel culture.  You just don't think these things through.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

If everything the Church did was of no importance to the election, then why did they do it?  

Because they were as short-sighted as you are.  If they had thought more deeply about it, they would have reasoned from polygyny and the 14th Amendment (some of them are legal eagles) to an understanding that it would be inappropriate to interfere in the political process.  The Brethren actually should have authorized an amicus brief in support of gay marriage to the U.S. Supreme Court.  They already knew that Reynolds, etc., was wrong.  Yet, for all I know, God may have another agenda:  Maybe He wanted the political action for some reason other than permanent victory, because He would have seen at the outset that legal action would supersede Church action.  And to what ultimate purpose?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I didn't say I gloried in anything.  I was showing you the facts.  You claimed that the Mormons didn't play any major role in passing Prop 8.  If that is true, why was there such a big backlash against the Church.  Can you answer that rather than attack me personally?

Where did I deny there was a sea of change in American thinking?  Didn't I, in fact point out that very thing?  Support for gay marriage went from 30% in America prior to Prop 8 to now, 70%. Come on Robert, stop the attacks on me and read what I actually said.   Again I ask for a CFR where I reject American democracy.  Show me where I actually said the Church did not have a right to participate in the political process.  Where did I say ANYTHING against the political and legal process?  If you can't do that, then STOP saying this and apologize.

You keep trying to blame this on me.  I am just pointing out reality to you.  The Mormon Church did play a major role in passing Prop 8.  Honestly if you believe so much that what the Church did was honorable and good, why aren't you proud of the role the Church played in Prop 8 and just admit they were key players in a successful campaign in taking away the civil rights of gay couples to marry.  You haven't denied the facts that I have presented with members donating 20 million dollar contribution 70% of the work force.  Money and grass roots activism is what wins campaigns.  That is why everyone does it every single election.   It is exactly the goal the Church set out to do when they started organizing this whole campaign to support Prop 8. They reached their goal. 

Can you still honestly say the Church did not play a major role in getting Prop 8 passed?

Yes, of course, and your own stats make that case.  Your belief is that the LDS people of California posed a juggernaut of political power, which is nonsense.  Money does count, but it is the Plutocrats who run the state.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

Edit to add.  I have been thinking more about your posts.  I realize you are not disputing the facts that I have presented. What you are doing is just personal attacks and bringing up things I never said or claimed.  What is going on Robert?  This isn't you.  This isn't the guy that supports what is says meticulously with facts and knowledge.  I can't even remember you doing these kinds of groundless projected personal attacks.  Are you ok?  Have I offended you?  Is there something specifically I have actually said that you feel is not true?  If so, just list what I said that is not true.  Maybe that is what we need to concentrate on.  If I am wrong about something I have specifically claimed, then I will gladly admit it and apologize.

What sticks in my craw is your constant admission that, yes, public opinion was already heavily against gay marriage, but, oh, those terrible Mormons came along and supported that preexisting position and won a great victory for their side.  You put that figure at 30%  nationwide before Prop 8 and the consequent legal process which led to 70% support.  A sea change which you should find satisfactory.  Yet you claim at the same time that those terrible Mormons somehow did something wrong in supporting Prop 8.  You admit that they had the right to do so, but you also make it out to be morally wrong.  You hypocritically want to have your cake and eat it too.  Same as the LDS Church hypocritically supported Prop 8, which denied the right of non-traditional marriage -- hypocritical because the Mormons, of all people, should have known that their own experience with polygyny should have told them how wrong it would be to deny others their Constitutional rights.  Just like the Mormons, you have failed to think your own hypocrisy through, and you insist on playing the old blame game.

Prop 8 was bound to succeed at the outset, regardless of the strong Christian coalition support.  I agree completely with the final result in the U.S. Supreme Court.  In fact the 14th Amendment probably needs broader application.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No, I am not against ballot initiatives, etc... But I am against people hiding their immorality behind politics. It was immoral for the church to try to stop gay marriage. It's campaign harmed people and some still hurt because of it. And it still defends its position and continues such harmful rhetoric. 

Not sure what that "harmful rhetoric" is.  We cannot have polite society if only one view is allowable.

12 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I was one of those people who supported the church and opposed gay marriage. I was wrong. I don't feel there is any way for me to begin to reconcile my actions with those I hurt if I had not first apologized for them.

Resistance to admitting one's mistakes is a stumbling block. It generates more mistakes. The Church continues to make more mistakes by not admitting its mistakes and learning from the fact that it makes mistakes.

Well said.  Come to think of it, at least a couple of the Brethren should have been at the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma on that fateful day when John Lewis was beaten senseless.  What I liked about Congressman Lewis (RIP) was that he was never vengeful of petty toward those who were so slow to grant civil liberties to Black people.  We all need to take a lesson from his life of gracious generosity and kindness.

My Mother once told me:  "Sometimes it takes a long time for people to change."  I was 15 when she told me that in answer to a question I had as to why 15-year-old Emmet Till had been so horribly murdered that very week.

[california boy]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You were in denial of the complete normalcy of the opposition to gay marriage, so I provided a prime example of exactly that at the national level, and the sea change which resulted.  I thought you might understand that simple fact, which you yourself supported with your 30% statistic.  I was wrong to have made such an assumption.  You are so bonded to cancel culture.  You just don't think these things through.

Because they were as short-sighted as you are.  If they had thought more deeply about it, they would have reasoned from polygyny and the 14th Amendment (some of them are legal eagles) to an understanding that it would be inappropriate to interfere in the political process.  The Brethren actually should have authorized an amicus brief in support of gay marriage to the U.S. Supreme Court.  They already knew that Reynolds, etc., was wrong.  Yet, for all I know, God may have another agenda:  Maybe He wanted the political action for some reason other than permanent victory, because He would have seen at the outset that legal action would supersede Church action.  And to what ultimate purpose?

Yes, of course, and your own stats make that case.  Your belief is that the LDS people of California posed a juggernaut of political power, which is nonsense.  Money does count, but it is the Plutocrats who run the state.

What sticks in my craw is your constant admission that, yes, public opinion was already heavily against gay marriage, but, oh, those terrible Mormons came along and supported that preexisting position and won a great victory for their side.  You put that figure at 30%  nationwide before Prop 8 and the consequent legal process which led to 70% support.  A sea change which you should find satisfactory.  Yet you claim at the same time that those terrible Mormons somehow did something wrong in supporting Prop 8.  You admit that they had the right to do so, but you also make it out to be morally wrong.  You hypocritically want to have your cake and eat it too.  Same as the LDS Church hypocritically supported Prop 8, which denied the right of non-traditional marriage -- hypocritical because the Mormons, of all people, should have known that their own experience with polygyny should have told them how wrong it would be to deny others their Constitutional rights.  Just like the Mormons, you have failed to think your own hypocrisy through, and you insist on playing the old blame game.

Prop 8 was bound to succeed at the outset, regardless of the strong Christian coalition support.  I agree completely with the final result in the U.S. Supreme Court.  In fact the 14th Amendment probably needs broader application.

I would be glad to continue this discussion, but I need a little honesty here on what I actually have said.  Are you not going to answer my CFR's?  Until you address them, it is really pointless to continue this discussion.  You know how this works Robert.

Here they are again

CFR Where did I say Barack Obama did not support gay marriage initially?  

CFR Where I said the Church's political activity was a Satanic plot

CFR That I distain the political process

CFR Where I said Church did not have a right to participate in the political process.

CFR Where I said ANYTHING against the political and legal process

Once you can answer the CFR's according to Board guidelines, I would be glad to comment on your post.  Seriously Robert, you need to stop accusing me of things I have not said.  

 

[Fair Dinkum]

Seems I was right.  Several stories have broken that put Mormonism squarely on the front pages of America.  The new Netflix Hofmann documentary is trending at #2 on that platform and I'll even throw in the Lighting of the Y above BYU in the rainbow colors

Edited March 5, 2021 by Fair Dinkum