PacMan Posted July 23, 2020 Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) Although familiar with evidence and theories of pre-Colombian Hebrew in the Americas, I do not know enough to echo the claims of hundreds, if not thousands of such examples. Rather than supporting these theories nor trying to refute them, I’d like to identify them with as near original sources as possible. If there is a meaningful study supporting or rejecting the claim, please post it. As I have time, I'll update this post to include examples and resources as they are listed. The Bat Creek Stone https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/batcrk.html http://www.ampetrographic.com/files/BatCreekStone.pdf Los Lunas Decalogue Stone https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/loslunas.html Library of Agüeybaná, or Nazario Collection https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-ancient-trove-may-attest-to-lost-civilization-in-puerto-rico-1.7501553 The Tucson Artifacts The Newark Holy Stones https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/decalog.html https://www.ohiohistory.org/learn/collections/archaeology/archaeology-blog/2014/december-2014/conclusive-proof-that-the-newark-decalogue-stone-i Hanukkiah Earthworks https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/efw.html https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/efw.pdfThe Grave Creek Stone https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/grvcrk.html Coins https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1975/01/discovery/transatlantic-crossings-a-new-look?lang=eng (I'd be interested if there are updates to what is described) Relatedly... DNA https://www.thejc.com/news/world/big-chief-rabbi-why-cherokees-could-be-jewish-1.53565 Linguistics https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1258&context=jbms Edited July 27, 2020 by PacMan 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 24, 2020 Posted July 24, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: .................................. DNA https://www.thejc.com/news/world/big-chief-rabbi-why-cherokees-could-be-jewish-1.53565 The only DNA evidence worth considering would be ancient DNA from skeletal remains obtained in a scientific excavation. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: Linguistics https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1258&context=jbms Stubbs' work is important, and so is work I list in the bibliography to http://www.scribd.com/doc/56696298/SAWI-ZAA . Nearly all the other items you list are highly suspect of forgery. 4
PacMan Posted July 24, 2020 Author Posted July 24, 2020 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The only DNA evidence worth considering would be ancient DNA from skeletal remains obtained in a scientific excavation. Stubbs' work is important, and so is work I list in the bibliography to http://www.scribd.com/doc/56696298/SAWI-ZAA . Nearly all the other items you list are highly suspect of forgery. Yes, some are suspect. Some more than others. Others are dismissed out of lazy bias. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, PacMan said: Yes, some are suspect. Some more than others. Others are dismissed out of lazy bias. Perhaps, but their existence outside a convincing archeological and cultural context is very puzzling. Note how different is the claim that the Vikings actually had a settlement in L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, in the 11th century. That is easily proven. These other items just don't fit. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 Pre-colombian America should read "Pre-Columbian America," for Columbus.
PacMan Posted July 26, 2020 Author Posted July 26, 2020 On 7/24/2020 at 6:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Perhaps, but their existence outside a convincing archeological and cultural context is very puzzling. Note how different is the claim that the Vikings actually had a settlement in L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, in the 11th century. That is easily proven. These other items just don't fit. Well, to an extent. There have been a number of papers on the absolute destruction of native cultures by both the Spanish and the English for the past 600 years. Beyond that, there is irrefutable evidence (from another thread) that Polynesians and Native Americans mixed, but we have nothing either culturally or archaeologically to give more context or to explain how that is. So, just because something doesn’t fit doesn’t mean it isn’t. 1
PacMan Posted July 26, 2020 Author Posted July 26, 2020 On 7/24/2020 at 6:04 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Pre-colombian America should read "Pre-Columbian America," for Columbus. Yes. I knew that as soon as I posted. Don’t know how to edit it. 1
Calm Posted July 26, 2020 Posted July 26, 2020 8 minutes ago, PacMan said: Yes. I knew that as soon as I posted. Don’t know how to edit it. Editing your opening post should allow you to edit your title. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 26, 2020 Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, PacMan said: Well, to an extent. There have been a number of papers on the absolute destruction of native cultures by both the Spanish and the English for the past 600 years. Beyond that, there is irrefutable evidence (from another thread) that Polynesians and Native Americans mixed, but we have nothing either culturally or archaeologically to give more context or to explain how that is. So, just because something doesn’t fit doesn’t mean it isn’t. Oh, but we do have a lot of material culture in common, as Thor Heyerdahl showed generations ago in his massive American Indians in the Pacific (1952). The most famous item in common was the sweet potato, called by the same name in both South America and in Polynesia.
PacMan Posted July 26, 2020 Author Posted July 26, 2020 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Oh, but we do have a lot of material culture in common, as Thor Heyerdahl showed generations ago in his massive American Indians in the Pacific (1952). The most famous item in common was the sweet potato, called by the same name in both South America and in Polynesia. I wasn't including agriculture in the cultural/archaeological buckets. But, yes, evidence is what it is. Even with the sweet potato, the buckets remain small.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 26, 2020 Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, PacMan said: I wasn't including agriculture in the cultural/archaeological buckets. But, yes, evidence is what it is. Even with the sweet potato, the buckets remain small. For the anthropologist, agriculture is always a large part of any cultural comparison. You speak as though you have never seen Heyerdahl's huge volume. Small buckets, indeed.
Bob Crockett Posted July 26, 2020 Posted July 26, 2020 This cite is from the Atlantic, discussing a most prominent diffusionist, Barry Fell of Harvard. Sorenson is discussed.
RevTestament Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: Although familiar with evidence and theories of pre-Colombian Hebrew in the Americas, I do not know enough to echo the claims of hundreds, if not thousands of such examples. Rather than supporting these theories nor trying to refute them, I’d like to identify them with as near original sources as possible. If there is a meaningful study supporting or rejecting the claim, please post it. As I have time, I'll update this post to include examples and resources as they are listed. The Bat Creek Stone https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/batcrk.html http://www.ampetrographic.com/files/BatCreekStone.pdf The Bat Creek Stone is largely claimed as a hoax because it is claimed the script was copied from a Masonic book - except plainly it wasn't unless the copier just didn't know how to copy. Yet, the possibility remains it was a hoax. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: Los Lunas Decalogue Stone https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/loslunas.html Probably done by LDS settlers, or some other Lost Tribe theorists, but who knows. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: Library of Agüeybaná, or Nazario Collection https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-ancient-trove-may-attest-to-lost-civilization-in-puerto-rico-1.7501553 Maybe. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: The Tucson Artifacts The Newark Holy Stones https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/decalog.html https://www.ohiohistory.org/learn/collections/archaeology/archaeology-blog/2014/december-2014/conclusive-proof-that-the-newark-decalogue-stone-i One main problem with the Newark Holy Stones is that the decalogue stone was in later Aramaic lettering, which wasn't used by the Hebrews until after the Babylonian diaspora. How would the Lehites or Lost Ten tribes then know that script since they were pre-Babylonian diaspora? The decalogue stone was probably not a "fake" but was probably a real Sephardic arm phylactery used to perpetrate a hoax on Wyrick, the surveyor who found it. The issue is only compounded by his subsequently finding the keystone, which, conveniently, was in the earlier paleo-Hebrew alphabet - how convenient when it was discovered that the script of the decalogue stone was too late to be Lost Tribes material. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: Hanukkiah Earthworks https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/efw.html https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/efw.pdf The Hanukkiah Earthworks, so called, were depicted by three different surveyors/explorers until their "disappearance." Examining the reported position I believe is the secret to their demise - many earthworks were destroyed. Where these were a lawyer suddenly became quite rich, and a gold mine operated nearby... nuff said. Quote The Grave Creek Stone https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/mcculloch.2/arch/grvcrk.html Coins https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1975/01/discovery/transatlantic-crossings-a-new-look?lang=eng (I'd be interested if there are updates to what is described) Relatedly... I don't believe the "coins" were really what we would think of as a minted coin... They were a system of weights in valuable metals.... chiefly copper, and silver. Gold was just too valuable to be allowed to remain by the early colonialists. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: DNA https://www.thejc.com/news/world/big-chief-rabbi-why-cherokees-could-be-jewish-1.53565 There is more direct evidence. The secret lies in the penchant for geneticists to rule any non-"Native" DNA as admixture. On 7/22/2020 at 10:42 PM, PacMan said: Linguistics https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1258&context=jbms to be determined 1
Recommended Posts