poptart Posted April 27, 2020 Posted April 27, 2020 (edited) I'm making this thread so I don't derail the other one this all started in. It dawned on me, someone finally realized I'm not a Christian in the sense that i don't believe in the resurrection, I'm a cultural Christian at best, when it comes to what would be considered beliefs I am Buddhist to the core, Nichiren to be precise. Since i'm making this anti-derail thread, thought I'd make something that's open to question and discussion. Wall-text reply incoming, enjoy! From mfbukowski: Thanks for your reply. I want to take it apart, just to illustrate how I see things- this is not to be argumentative or expect a refutation or even a discussion. To me the above is a "tautology". It's hard to avoid those, but to me what this says is "The purpose of history is history". Obviously if I am right, that doesn't answer the question. The word is used in its own definition and so does not really explain the PURPOSE of history it simply describes what history IS, Very interesting. I agree that the "reality" if the divine cannot be fully known/achieved here on earth- which perhaps is a bit of a contradiction to a Buddhist who sees Enlightenment as the goal of human life. I saw myself as a Buddhist for a period in my life, so I have some acquaintance with it, probably just enough to be "dangerous" in my ignorance. What I studied was Zen. My only knowledge of Nichiren Buddhism was extremely simplistic and hard to accept as even providing a sense of peace etc. So I apologize for that- it would be like a person who has only heard of Mormonism as seen from anti-Mormons, and yet these ostensibly were people who themselves chanted Nam-myōhō-renge-kyō to the Gohonzon and by doing so, I was told I could get anything I wanted in the world, including getting rid of parking tickets, fame and fortune etc. Coming from what I knew at the time about Taoism and Zen, I was not impressed- yet obviously a lot of intelligent people followed that path. I discounted it prematurely I am sure- as a path to Enlightenment. I apologize if any of that is offensive- I am just going by what I was told, now over forty years ago, on a college campus. So it really was out of my own ignorance. You're right and I am sorry you had to go through all that, and yes, Christianity has a lot to learn about being "Christian". Yes I can see this and in many ways you and I have been on a similar path- I also am a great fan of Stoicism which you have summarized very well here. And this is also Philosophical Pragmatism as well- what is important is what beliefs as tools "work" in real life, in action. And Mormonism as well has a good dose of that spirit in Alma 32 where one puts a belief into action as an experiment and sees if it "works" for him, And then of course 1 James and Moroni 10 stress taking personal responsibility for finding "truth" through action- inquiring of God what truth works for us individually. Like stoicism, it is about changing ATTITUDE. But that last sentence bothers me I am not sure how this is possible when you have just said accountability and personal responsibility and being a "good man" are of central importance- but how do you KNOW what IS "responsible" or "accountable" or "Good" without feeling in your heart that some action IS "responsible" or "accountable" or "Good"?? What do those terms even mean divorced from feelings in your heart? I apologize- at the time I wrote that I thought that you were a believing Christian who believed in the resurrection. But here is my point on all this about history, which I think becomes even more acute now that I know you are from a Buddhist background: YOU of all people should be VERY aware of the difference between spiritual advancement and the personal history of the teacher! Pick your favorite Buddhist teacher and ask if his finding the path to enlightenment and "proving" that one can reach enlightenment has anything to do with history? Does the personal circumstances of the TEACHER have any affect on YOUR ability to reach enlightenment or spiritual advancement because HIS PERSONAL HISTORY? For example does the fact that Joseph was a polygamist change the importance of his teachings? Pick whatever personal history beef anyone has had and ask yourself if HIS personal history is relevant to his spiritual teachings? My belief is - "NO WAY!" I used the earth only as an example- the point I was trying to make is that WE CREATE our own stories about how philosophy/religion helps us- BECAUSE we find them- feel them to be- USEFUL. What does meditation do for you? There are benefits you FEEL in your heart! What IS enlightenment? Why does one seek to get out of the circle of reincarnation? When one loses one self, who is it who loses himself? Obviously language cannot express it. No logic, no action can "prove" it- so the only reason one would pursue ANY path- Buddhism, Christianity, etc etc- is some sense (feeling) of being drawn to the path. Mormons call that "The light of Christ". What is your purpose? Spiritual advancement or Enlightenment!! YOU still have a personal purpose- being a good responsible man who has achieved a higher spiritual level.. Same for Mormonism as Buddhism in many ways! Why does one FEEL one teacher is more to their LIKING (a feeling) than another? Why does one choose a path and exclude others? Glad we agree on Galileo and Mack. That is really my central point- history is not spiritual enlightenment. Regarding being civil, I am trying to master that as well, but have far to go. Thanks for the conversation! I think we have both had our share of grumpiness hereabouts! My reply Actually, no it wasn’t, at least I don’t think it was. I’m the kind of person who, when it comes down to it accepts things for what they are. I may not like them but it is what it is. That is precisely how I look at history, it is what it is. It has no purpose, it just is. The brutal rapes, murders, scientific discoveries, all of it is just that, history. We often fail to learn from it hence why we’re in the mess we’re in. Humans still have that animal-ish part left over from our time swinging in trees, hoping we start learning as it looks like chimpanzees are catching up intelligence wise. When animals do a better job of raising their young than a lot of people do, that’s yet another bad sign of things to come. Actually, no it’s not, in fact it meshes perfectly. Enlightenment, if you wish to call it however, is not. I’m not sure how much Buddhist literature you’ve read, if you ever read the heart sutra you’ll see my point. The gods and demi gods were gathered with other creatures, humans among them and yep, they looked at us as stunted and stinky. The Buddha outshone them all and we was just like us, a human yet he transcended even the gods. The heavenly realms may be far more advanced places than ours, even now when you look at the standard of living a lot of the first world is having as well as the ever widening gap between the haves and have nots, well, that’s kind of a good illustration, the best I can think of right now anyway. I’m going to guess that your exposure to Nichiren Buddhism was through the Soka Gakkai wasn’t it? Ohh boy the US branch is a mess still. I was around them for a bit during and after HS, reason why they attracted the likes of me was simple, no one else wanted us. The Soka Gakkai was in a way the only place that took mixed race kids with mental issues, most churches would not touch us because we were poor, the members (At least what we saw) were middle class, racist and entitled. Just my experience. Anyway, yeah the early days of the Soka Gakkai was a mess of politics, corruption and in some cases criminal stuff. Japan is full of Buddhist cults and a lot of em take root in the western USA. They love the likes of me, esp. when they’re kids. They know how a lot of us never fit in due to mixed childhoods and get tons of members that way. In Japan the Soka Gakkai is a bit different, the leadership back in the day knew it and thrived off it. Thanks to the internet, a lot of that has changed as has a lot of the corruption. Needless to say, while I still have friends from back in those days who had similar childhoods, most of us are not affiliated in the same capacity, we all bailed while we could. There are a ton of Nichiren schools, I went with Nichiren Shu in the end, one of the oldest if not the oldest. Thing with them is, outside of Hawaii and I think CA, only other Nichiren Shu temple I know of is in Reno and Seattle, I’ve met both guys. The Rev. in Seattle is the son of the Nichiren Mission Hawaii’s Bishop so big surprise we get along great. No apologies, if you didn’t grow up around it and experience the culture it comes from it’s hard to get, no big deal. I’m just surprised no one here called me on it sooner. I’ve been wondering for some time if the wiser posters here like Papa or Jeanne would have asked if I really believe in the resurrection of Christ. Half the time I think at least of one em shook their head on their end of the internet and thought “that boy ain’t right in the head”… Anyway, one of the big things with Nichiren Buddhism besides emphasis on the Lotus sutra is seeing things for what they are, or Ichinen Sanzen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_suchnesses On culture, I had the exposure to the Confucian elements that most Asian Buddhists have, without those components not a lot of westerners really get it. It’s like trying to explain the profoundness of LDS doctrine to an outsider. I know a bit about your temple ritual through friends who resigned their membership, big deal. I didn’t grow up LDS as a lot of you did so yeah, it flies right over my head. At my core I’m much more of a collectivist vs. individualist. Mom going to BYUH and having a Japanese LDS for an ex girlfriend does not exactly explain the finer points of LDS doctrine, I think. Back to inner me, I keep quiet about that IRL because I don’t want to be called a commie. Politics nowadays are horrible and people lose their careers over it, I keep things like that in mind in my day to day affairs. I smile and nod often and my yes answers often times mean acknowledgement, not agreement. I do wonder if Christians here state side will ever get it. Your religion and its adherents should get with it soon as your numbers are plummeting and more and more animosity is being directed at you guys. I don’t wish any of you ill will but considering how mean a lot of your own are towards those of different backgrounds I don’t feel a lot of compassion towards a lot of you for the hate you do get. I admit that’s a big nono for those of the Mahayana path, I’m not a Buddha yet lol I will give the Latter Day Saint Leadership this, they’re very smart. Their public relations people are amazing. I think it was Elder Holland who told people at one of his talks to love everyone, even those of a different sexual orientation. I know Latter day saints in real life with LGBT children, unlike say, what I went through they’re far, far more loving and kind towards them. Keep that up, please. Also more Luaus and BBQ’s, if the LDS church ever had a conference combined with a huge Luau/BBQ/waterpark party I’d so show up. Maybe add a waterslide to PCC in Hawaii? I’d say I’d be the biggest kidult in line but I doubt it, Latter Day saints know how to have fun. I like stoicism but at my core, I’m more of a get back to nature kind of person. I prefer balance and quiet. Stoicism is nice but geez it’s a real headache, forget that. Being an Emperor of a huge empire and having to watch out for every other slimeball wanting to slit my throat is not my idea of a good life, I just want to be with family, work, stay healthy and live a quiet life with happy woodland critters and not be bothered. Stoicims is nice but geez, some of those people could take notes from lao tzu and bob marley. Ever see the vinegar tasters painting? I’ll post it at the end of this wall text. That's something I'm really taking a good look at and how my life has been and well, it's quite spot on. Feel free to ask what it's about if you don't google it first. The last sentence bothers you? Why? I love it. If there are no gods, this is all we have, live for what’s good and leave the world a better place. You’re not sure how it’s possible? It’s simple, my values. I do think mine in a way are very, very different from yours. My idea of good isn’t like the Judeo-Christian one I’m assuming you’re used to, for me there is no good vs. evil, that’s something that really is foreign to me. People make their own problems and for the most part their own monsters, simple solution to all that is grow up and stop being so ignorant. Sadly, most don’t so here we are as a society. Anyway, my take on ‘Good’ is basically collectivist. What benefits society, my family, my own etc. Again, the childhood I had influenced that and those are all cultural, not religious. We don’t regard Buddhism as a religion like a lot of the west does, it’s a philosophical system like cunfuciasm and Taoism. We see good as something that needs no thing like religion, that’s something based in feeling that is very much up to interpretation. A family that succeeds despite being exposed to a ton of racism and bigotry? That’s good. A third generation immigrant that graduates medical school and makes sure his grandparents who worked back breaking labor to give their kids a shot at life? That’s good. Some religious guy with some authority from what he considers a holy text running his mouth while having klan robes and what may well be neo nazi ties? Nope, I’ll pass. Nope, I do not believe in the Christian resurrection at all. Maybe Jesus lived, maybe he didn’t, love the emphasis on loving kindness though. There was a BBC documentary where they discussed Jesus possibly having been a Buddhist Monk, that was neat I think. https://medium.com/@SelfDevelopShop/bbc-documentary-jesus-was-a-buddhist-monk-named-issa-who-spent-16-years-in-india-tibet-4e1cd69ce6aa Not quite sure what you’re trying to get at when you ask about enlightenment and history so I’ll just leave that one alone. The part where you bring up personal history of the teacher and enlightenment? Ohh I’ll absolutely answer that one! You bet personal history has something to do with enlightenment! Look at the Buddha, most of the major Bodhisattvas/teachers, they were very holy people, compared to us anyway. Nichiren Shonin went through pure hell to help establish Nichiren Buddhism and in the end was exiled to a nasty island and lived in a cave. He put St. Francis to shame as far as poverty goes. I won’t say too much about Joseph Smith, there’s so much misinformation about him and yeah, I could care less what anti-Mormons have to say about him. Considering a lot of the Baptists/Methodists back in the day were prominent members of the Klan? Yeah I’m totally sticking to my guns on the morality of any religious teacher. At least Smith was all for people being taken care of, that and they did what most Americans could have never pulled off, him and the early saint’s terraformed a desert and created SLC. Polygamy? Oh please give me a break. Ohh so horrible! Some guy had more than one wife! Meanwhile let’s look at the slave owners who forced their slaves to convert yet would not let them worship with them in white church, they had to create their own branch of Christianity, AME Zion. You guys are small potatoes compared to the corruption of the rest of American Christendom I could care less. Latter Day Saints are awesome people. Despite some of the bad ones I met your families are in my opinion in far, far better shape than most. I leave religion and politics at the door when it comes to a lot of Christianity for that reason, in the actions department you guys win that one hands down. Keep it up! My purpose? Simple escape suffering lol. I look at cause and effect as this, a wood chipper. You can be like most idiots and stick your arm in or be one of the few smart ones, use it as a tool to get work done. It’s that simple, in that sense I think. I chose the path I did because it really was the best and as time went on the only do-able path. I’ve been through pure hell and have the mental baggage and scars from it. No one cared, no one raised a finger so I did it myself. Even the Buddha himself said that you have to save yourself, all he can do is open the door. For an ever increasing number of poor, that is their only option. People are not as charitable as they used to be and I see that continuing, sadly. Yep, I’m a grouch, I’ll take being a grouch over a fool any day though, at least a grouch has a better idea of when bad times are coming. Fortune favors the prepared more than the brave. A lot of this is probably sudden, hoping mfbukowski replies so we can continue. I'm guessing at least a few people were watching our exchange so I figured why not make a dedicated thread that everyone can participate in. I've sure derailed and harassed enough of you good people, now it's your turn! I don't start a whole lot of threads on this part of the board so here's me contributing, for once. Edited April 27, 2020 by poptart
theplains Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 On 4/27/2020 at 6:48 PM, poptart said: I'm making this thread so I don't derail the other one this all started in. It dawned on me, someone finally realized I'm not a Christian in the sense that i don't believe in the resurrection, I'm a cultural Christian at best, when it comes to what would be considered beliefs I am Buddhist to the core, Nichiren to be precise. Since i'm making this anti-derail thread, thought I'd make something that's open to question and discussion. Wall-text reply incoming, enjoy! You should read the 3 Theories of Everything if you believe in Buddhism.
california boy Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 I don't know much about Buddhism, but what I do know I like. I spent about a month in Thailand a while back. Part of that trip was a 3 day hike into the mountains above Chiang Mai. Our guide was a young Buddhist. We talked a lot about his religion as we hiked up the mountain. In the end, the very core of their teachings as I understood it is not all that different than the teachings of Christ. I very much liked a lot about what he said. My biggest memory is being in one of the Buddhist temples. A monk had some thin reeds tied together. He would dip the reeds in water and sprinkle them on the people as he offered them a blessing. Then he would tie a string on their wrist. I stayed very much in the background not wanting to intrude on what was obviously a very spiritual ritual. I quietly watched in the background until none were left. I was literally caught by surprise when the monk waved me over, clearly knowing that I was a westerner. He talked kindly to me, told me that the purpose of the string was to remember to be thankful for all my blessings. Then he tied the white cord on my wrist, telling me to not take it off but to let it fall off. I was so touched that he reached out to make sure I was included, that I did wear the cord as a reminder, not only to be thankful but also to be inclusive to others, even when they are not like me. It took 2 years for the string to finally disintegrate and fall off. I was sad to see it go. Like you, I didn't really have a positive experience with the Church once they found out I was gay. I no longer fit the Mormon mold. That string on my wrist was a constant reminder to me to make sure I always tried to reach out to others and be inclusive to those that I meet, even, no, especially when they are different than me. I plan to go back to Thailand as soon as it is safe to travel again. This time for 3 or 4 months. I found the Buddhist people to be some of the most kind and warm hearted people I have ever come across. It is easy to be kind to those that you love. Harder to those you perceive to be different than you. If that is what Buddhism is, sign me up. 2
poptart Posted April 29, 2020 Author Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, theplains said: You should read the 3 Theories of Everything if you believe in Buddhism. This looks interesting, thanks! 56 minutes ago, california boy said: I don't know much about Buddhism, but what I do know I like. I spent about a month in Thailand a while back. Part of that trip was a 3 day hike into the mountains above Chiang Mai. Our guide was a young Buddhist. We talked a lot about his religion as we hiked up the mountain. In the end, the very core of their teachings as I understood it is not all that different than the teachings of Christ. I very much liked a lot about what he said. My biggest memory is being in one of the Buddhist temples. A monk had some thin reeds tied together. He would dip the reeds in water and sprinkle them on the people as he offered them a blessing. Then he would tie a string on their wrist. I stayed very much in the background not wanting to intrude on what was obviously a very spiritual ritual. I quietly watched in the background until none were left. I was literally caught by surprise when the monk waved me over, clearly knowing that I was a westerner. He talked kindly to me, told me that the purpose of the string was to remember to be thankful for all my blessings. Then he tied the white cord on my wrist, telling me to not take it off but to let it fall off. I was so touched that he reached out to make sure I was included, that I did wear the cord as a reminder, not only to be thankful but also to be inclusive to others, even when they are not like me. It took 2 years for the string to finally disintegrate and fall off. I was sad to see it go. Like you, I didn't really have a positive experience with the Church once they found out I was gay. I no longer fit the Mormon mold. That string on my wrist was a constant reminder to me to make sure I always tried to reach out to others and be inclusive to those that I meet, even, no, especially when they are different than me. I plan to go back to Thailand as soon as it is safe to travel again. This time for 3 or 4 months. I found the Buddhist people to be some of the most kind and warm hearted people I have ever come across. It is easy to be kind to those that you love. Harder to those you perceive to be different than you. If that is what Buddhism is, sign me up. I think Thailand is mostly, if not all theravada buddhism, the two major branches are Theravada and Mahayana. Your Shin Shu, Zen, Nichiren and what not are Mahayana, the latter path with layity in mind. If you're in Cali, check out the Buddhist Churches of America, they're all over but highly concentrated in Cali and parts of the west. https://www.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org/ I had my moments with Buddhism and don't get me wrong, in some heavy Asian sanghas they're not as tolerant as you may think, not so much for religious reasons, cultural. While most E.Asians wouldn't care, esp. since you're a foreigner, in most Asian countries they don't have the LGBT freedom we do, ironically. I think Taiwan is one of the few that allows LGBT marriage, I believe in Japan it's still not recodnized but that's probably going to change, the overwhelming majority of those under sixty favor it. Think the only way I can put it is it's the whole collectivist vs. individualist culture. The USA, like any western country may be Christian culturally but there's still that individualistic streak which does make some things possible you'd never see in most E.Asian countries. Take the good with the bad. Irony is, despite my experience the LDS were still in the end far kinder than most others I had met. Most of my family has no idea, my fathers side is well, kinda racist and quite anti LGBT despite the young women on that side have no respect for the elders and bring nothing but headache on them. Glad i'm not close to them... I'm sure you see how the USA is fracturing along political and socio-economic lines, I see this continuing, also why I do want to move once i get my license. I can see the racism here against Asians/anyone Asian looking growing. While i'm ok, mom isn't so the reason for me to move farther west keeps piling up. Besides civil rights for minorities, we had to fight long and hard for the LGBT rights we had, there are still tons of people out there who would love to yank them from us. I sometimes think we're at the point to where if that was to happen you'd see more and more states wanting to either refuse to do business/allow travel to states that attempt to pass anti LGBT legislation or worse, seems like no one can get along anymore. If the adults in the room choose not to grow up, we may not have much of a country left. Sad but it is what it is. Back to Buddhism, here's a nice into type of lesson from a BCA church/temple here, enjoy! Edited April 29, 2020 by poptart
california boy Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 Yeah, I am pretty much done with organized religion. But thanks for the video. I do like listening to other peoples ideas and views.
poptart Posted April 29, 2020 Author Posted April 29, 2020 18 minutes ago, california boy said: Yeah, I am pretty much done with organized religion. But thanks for the video. I do like listening to other peoples ideas and views. For what it's worth, the LDS i'm on good terms with IRL are quite liberal, a rarity for most LDS i've heard. Not sure how true that is as i'm not one and had one parent who was quite the hate filled anti. Think why I still give them a bit of a pass is compared to most others i've met stateside they're not nearly as bad. My fathers side are the kind of people who would toss LGBT children out into the street like lots of people. It was before my time but I grew up hearing stories about the moral majority. When I hear tales from friends in the midwest it sounds like their lot throws temper tantrums over their loss of numbers and diminishing clout. Gone are the days when churches out there would have members/parishoners adopt homeless orphans and help anyone, no questions asked. Not sure just how much good they're doing with covid-19 doing it's thing, would hope some are. Think the other thing is I've learned a lot about the other Protestant denominations and how they run things and the more i learn, the more I want to throw up. I won't go into details here as I don't want this thread to turn into a political flame war so i'll add this just to play devils advocate, various Buddhist sects out there are just as corrupt, you either never see them or they take advantage of the ignorance Americans have of Buddhism. I saw that a ton when I was younger, pre-internet/facebook people got away with so much it's scary. One good thing about our current times, the internet and social media does seem to help keep some people honest, or at least more honest.
mfbukowski Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 I didn't respond earlier because of the formatting- I could not tell what part of my post you were responding to in many cases, like these two responses Quote Actually, no it wasn’t, at least I don’t think it was. Quote Actually, no it’s not, in fact it meshes perfectly. Because there is no context that I could not figure out, I didn't know how to comment. So I will just pick a few statements and respond to those. On 4/27/2020 at 3:48 PM, poptart said: I’m going to guess that your exposure to Nichiren Buddhism was through the Soka Gakkai wasn’t it? Ohh boy the US branch is a mess still. I was around them for a bit during and after HS, reason why they attracted the likes of me was simple, no one else wanted us. The Soka Gakkai was in a way the only place that took mixed race kids with mental issues, most churches would not touch us because we were poor, the members (At least what we saw) were middle class, racist and entitled. Just my experience. Yes as I recall it was just some kind of display on the UCLA campus which I found interesting , so I went to a couple of lectures etc. I had studied Taoism on my own- and how it related to other disciplines- one of my favorite books at the time was "The Tao of Physics" by Kapra https://www.aakkozzll.com/pdf/tao_of_physics.pdf and I was getting into Zazen- I had a girlfriend at the time who did Zazen very seriously, and the contrast between what the kids at UCLA were pushing was just so great that Nichiren Shoshu just seemed.... well ridiculous to be honest. They promised all you had to do was meditate and you could get anything you want- your parking tickets would disappear, you would be rich, have a big house, anything you want! Obviously that was the opposite of "true" Buddhism, On 4/27/2020 at 3:48 PM, poptart said: People make their own problems and for the most part their own monsters, simple solution to all that is grow up and stop being so ignorant. Sadly, most don’t so here we are as a society. Anyway, my take on ‘Good’ is basically collectivist. What benefits society, my family, my own etc. Again, the childhood I had influenced that and those are all cultural, not religious. We don’t regard Buddhism as a religion like a lot of the west does, it’s a philosophical system like cunfuciasm and Taoism. We see good as something that needs no thing like religion, that’s something based in feeling that is very much up to interpretation. A family that succeeds despite being exposed to a ton of racism and bigotry? That’s good. A third generation immigrant that graduates medical school and makes sure his grandparents who worked back breaking labor to give their kids a shot at life? That’s good. Some religious guy with some authority from what he considers a holy text running his mouth while having klan robes and what may well be neo nazi ties? Nope, I’ll pass. Yep, hypocrisy is a drag. I believe that a prophet needs to be a holy and spiritual man, but there have been philosophers who have come up with wonderfully sublime theories who have not been "holy". Not sure what direction you want to take the discussion, but I will be glad to respond if there are some philosophical points to be made etc.
poptart Posted April 30, 2020 Author Posted April 30, 2020 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I didn't respond earlier because of the formatting- I could not tell what part of my post you were responding to in many cases, like these two responses Because there is no context that I could not figure out, I didn't know how to comment. So I will just pick a few statements and respond to those. Yes as I recall it was just some kind of display on the UCLA campus which I found interesting , so I went to a couple of lectures etc. I had studied Taoism on my own- and how it related to other disciplines- one of my favorite books at the time was "The Tao of Physics" by Kapra https://www.aakkozzll.com/pdf/tao_of_physics.pdf and I was getting into Zazen- I had a girlfriend at the time who did Zazen very seriously, and the contrast between what the kids at UCLA were pushing was just so great that Nichiren Shoshu just seemed.... well ridiculous to be honest. They promised all you had to do was meditate and you could get anything you want- your parking tickets would disappear, you would be rich, have a big house, anything you want! Obviously that was the opposite of "true" Buddhism, Yep, hypocrisy is a drag. I believe that a prophet needs to be a holy and spiritual man, but there have been philosophers who have come up with wonderfully sublime theories who have not been "holy". Not sure what direction you want to take the discussion, but I will be glad to respond if there are some philosophical points to be made etc. My bad on the formatting part, glad you figured it out. UCLA? Ahh, so guessing middle/upper middle income family? Nothing against it, father was the same way. It's just something I reflect on how so many who had theirs go out of their way to ruin their children once they destroy their own lives. I think that for me that's why I've held so strong to my own beliefs, I had to go through homelessness as a child and no one really cared. I'm here because of me, not some deity who's adherants are mostly from the suburbs so yeah, there it is. The Soka Gakkai has a Uni out there, Soka University. I know a few people who went, interesting place. Irony is they do get people work, know some people who work for the org proper. Nichiren Shoshu was and still is their main competition, Soka Gakkai split from them. I'm going to guess you have no interest in either but just in case, i'd avoid both like a disease. I try to watch running my mouth off about any buddhist org but considering what they've pulled and what I know, yeah there are more wholesome groups out there. That and we do have the internet. I don't really do prophets, wise teachers and sages? Yes. Philosophers, yep that I agree with you on but I consider them lay people just like anyone else. That was why I made this, wasn't sure where you were going to go with the beliefs discussion, since we weren't discussing orthodox Christianity, wanted to put this here and have it out in the open.
mfbukowski Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, poptart said: My bad on the formatting part, glad you figured it out. UCLA? Ahh, so guessing middle/upper middle income family? Nothing against it, father was the same way. It's just something I reflect on how so many who had theirs go out of their way to ruin their children once they destroy their own lives. I think that for me that's why I've held so strong to my own beliefs, I had to go through homelessness as a child and no one really cared. I'm here because of me, not some deity who's adherants are mostly from the suburbs so yeah, there it is. The Soka Gakkai has a Uni out there, Soka University. I know a few people who went, interesting place. Irony is they do get people work, know some people who work for the org proper. Nichiren Shoshu was and still is their main competition, Soka Gakkai split from them. I'm going to guess you have no interest in either but just in case, i'd avoid both like a disease. I try to watch running my mouth off about any buddhist org but considering what they've pulled and what I know, yeah there are more wholesome groups out there. That and we do have the internet. I don't really do prophets, wise teachers and sages? Yes. Philosophers, yep that I agree with you on but I consider them lay people just like anyone else. That was why I made this, wasn't sure where you were going to go with the beliefs discussion, since we weren't discussing orthodox Christianity, wanted to put this here and have it out in the open. I really do appreciate you telling us something about your life, and how far you have come. I feel I understand you much better now, thanks! I do a fair amount of mindfulness meditation - as always, not as often and deeply as I would like, but I find it very important in my life. Sometimes I see it "spiritually" and sometimes not. The sensation of pure light and intelligence simply flowing through your body cannot be matched in any other way I know, and I survived the '60's, if you catch my drift. It makes it possible for you to watch yourself in the process of simply thinking and BEING the person you are and there is much to learn there. Is that "the spirit" or is it a psychological phenomenon- you pick the words! THAT is what decides if it is "religion" or not! But it is not an "explanation" of a purpose in life, unless you see Enlightenment as itself a goal and therefore purpose. The idea of escaping reincarnation is pretty clearly a religious belief imo, so in that sense that is where meditation becomes religion. So in that sense it does gives one purpose and since it includes beliefs about the afterlife, it is also a religion. And I would say that the "masters" become- as you alluded- the "saints" or "prophets" of the church, or people who's advice one takes very seriously. So yes I can see Buddhism as clearly a "religion" which has quite a high degree of organization. In fact structurally it resembles Evangelical Protestantism to me- a church/temple on every corner with the "spiritual leader" running the place, all unified by singular concept of the after life and the way to get there. I really don't see that much difference And especially in Mormonism where we are encouraged to "ask God" for answers ourselves?? James 1 that led Joseph to ask God and restore Christianity? No bodhi tree, but a sacred grove of trees-- the first vision comes pretty close! Many many parallels Edited April 30, 2020 by mfbukowski
poptart Posted May 1, 2020 Author Posted May 1, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I really do appreciate you telling us something about your life, and how far you have come. I feel I understand you much better now, thanks! I do a fair amount of mindfulness meditation - as always, not as often and deeply as I would like, but I find it very important in my life. Sometimes I see it "spiritually" and sometimes not. The sensation of pure light and intelligence simply flowing through your body cannot be matched in any other way I know, and I survived the '60's, if you catch my drift. It makes it possible for you to watch yourself in the process of simply thinking and BEING the person you are and there is much to learn there. Is that "the spirit" or is it a psychological phenomenon- you pick the words! THAT is what decides if it is "religion" or not! But it is not an "explanation" of a purpose in life, unless you see Enlightenment as itself a goal and therefore purpose. The idea of escaping reincarnation is pretty clearly a religious belief imo, so in that sense that is where meditation becomes religion. So in that sense it does gives one purpose and since it includes beliefs about the afterlife, it is also a religion. And I would say that the "masters" become- as you alluded- the "saints" or "prophets" of the church, or people who's advice one takes very seriously. So yes I can see Buddhism as clearly a "religion" which has quite a high degree of organization. In fact structurally it resembles Evangelical Protestantism to me- a church/temple on every corner with the "spiritual leader" running the place, all unified by singular concept of the after life and the way to get there. I really don't see that much difference And especially in Mormonism where we are encouraged to "ask God" for answers ourselves?? James 1 that led Joseph to ask God and restore Christianity? No bodhi tree, but a sacred grove of trees-- the first vision comes pretty close! Many many parallels There are some things I don’t really bring up, I don’t hide them either if they’re brought out in the open and well, you did say I don’t believe in the resurrection so why lie about it? I’m a cultural Christian at best but as far as beliefs go? That’s nothing. Glad it made me make more sense, I know I’ve probably been an enigma to many here. Mindfullness is a really popular buzz-word nowadays, a good one. That’s one of the points of the wisdom teachings of Buddhism and wow is there a lot of it. The 60s must have been interesting, knew a retired vet who knew Dr. Timothy Leary, interesting guy… Proper Nichiren Buddhism and well, proper Buddhism for that matter has an object of focus, a Gohonzon if you will that you focus on. You’ve seen em before right? I’m going to get a nice silk one as soon as I can, they’re superb meditation devices in pretty much every Nichiren Buddhists home. Once again, for me there is no purpose as you put it, I indulge and categorize that as something Christians here obsess over to varying degrees. I just assume that’s because Christians assume they’re the center of the universe since so many think they were God’s favorite creation, the ones he made after angels. I didn’t grow up with that cultural component so it’s not there for me nor do I have an interest in having it. I look at myself as a part of nature, not supreme over it. Covid-19 sure is proving that point, plenty who I think are going to find out the hard way in a few weeks that they’re not as mighty as they think… Is it? Know much on how the Dali Lama is decided? Some would say it’s religious, some would say it’s not. I think for me reincarnation/rebirth is a concept that’s been ingrained in me since like 14 so it’s just a natural thing, I never think of it as religious but that’s just me. I would think as a Latter Day Saint you could appreciate it. People tend to be reborn along family lines hence why families are so precious. In Hawaii, California and just about anyplace with a heavy Asian presence dead family is honored at least once a year, esp. at Obon. Graves are washed, food is left at gravesites, incense is burned. Mom used to do that in Hawaii. Butsudans that have objects of worship tend to have memorial tablets with their loved ones name inscribed as well as an assigned Buddhist name given by clergy. Again, all this just tells you how much that culture reveres family. Oh boy I sure see the difference, there are so many schools it’s not funny. Now if you wanted to compare them to protestants? Here’s how I’d do it, they sure fought amongst each other. The 30 years war? 10 million dead, mostly Germans. All over petty religious bickering. Sure makes you wonder, what would Jesus do? Also, politics. The Soka Gakkai in Japan is totally different than it is in the USA, they have their own political party, the Komeito party. They are powerful to say the least. If you want a nice compare and contrast, look at their English than Japanese site, notice the difference? FYI, the LDS Japan site is quite a bit more cheery than the US one I think, especially their come unto Christ one. the Japanese have a different way of marketing that I find much more pleasing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komeito http://www.komei.or.jp/en/ http://www.komei.or.jp/ I do think a lot of this is difficult to explain to someone who had a secure life in the suburbs, esp. with two parents. Compared to the life the likes of me and many of my friends had, it's just too different. Imagine having every bit of security you're used to stripped away, bit by bit and being left with nothing and on the street. It's easy to be secure in whatever religion you have but when you not only have nothing but also have to contend with constant violence, alcohol and drug abuse around you? It means nothing. That's one of the main reasons why I put such little stock in religion esp. as i've seen it here in the states, for me it accomplished nothing and only seemed to benefit the well off and connected. Most new churches I see being built are smack in the middle of middle to upper middle class suburbs. The Buddhist temple here in Denver that has festivals is still in the middle of downtown, towards the not so nice parts. They're far, far more accepting of others since the congregation is mostly Japanese American. LGBT people are accepted with open arms so big suprise why my loyalty is with groups like that. Not saying Japanese Americans are perfect, thing is there are still elders there who remember internment camps. That was why most of moms family stayed in Hawaii and now with racism spiking in places I'm worried for her safety. Never thought I'd see the day when this kind of racism would make a comeback yet here we are. Meanwhile, many churches in the suburbs are just full of entitled, racist, homophobic bigots who love Jesus. Like you said, Christians have a long way to go but far as I can tell, many haven't even started the journey. I sometimes wonder if Jim Crow laws were put back on the ballot if some of em would vote in favor of them right along with being able to legally lynch LGBT people. I do have to ask, you’re not the first Latter Day saint to make comparisons with a non LDS religion to his own, are you trying to find similar ground? I’m just curious. No offense if you are, actually a bit flattered. With Buddha, that came after years of extreme, often sadistic religious practices. Pretty sure Joseph Smith didn’t go nearly that far, most Christians after the middle ages didn't that I know of. Think the only ones who may come kinda close, the Orthodox and even then, they’re tame by comparison. There is one person who inspired me more spiritually teacher wise, a Shinto priest who lived through WWII and vowed to work towards world peace, Yukitaka Yamamoto. He was very spiritual and while not Christian this man's take on God/ the gods is about as close as I'd get to anything you may have common ground, I think. I dunno. He survived WWII, almost starved yet never broke. I've yet to see anyone here like him and i'll admit, I have a huge bias on who i'd take spiritual guidance from. Like I said, I do very much judge religious teachers harshly, something that you said you aren't too keen on. That is very much a result of how I had to grow up. While I can respect someone who lives a good life and doesn't cause problems for something that personal I will never settle save someone who puts his money where his mouth is. I know a lot of people here stateside aren't like that, I am. Anyway, if you're curious..... https://tsubakishrine.org/kaminomichi/index.html Here’s something to check out, they do have it in English. I keep forgetting when I post some things here at one time my Japanese was almost fluent, working on bringing it back up. I don’t watch a lot of American TV except cartoons. Edited May 1, 2020 by poptart
Rajah Manchou Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 I'm in the middle of this book: In Search of the Christian Buddha: How an Asian Sage Became a Medieval Saint A lot of interesting details behind the story of Saint Josaphat, an imitation of the story of the Buddha, as early as 800 AD. 1
poptart Posted May 4, 2020 Author Posted May 4, 2020 On 5/1/2020 at 2:20 AM, Rajah Manchou said: I'm in the middle of this book: In Search of the Christian Buddha: How an Asian Sage Became a Medieval Saint A lot of interesting details behind the story of Saint Josaphat, an imitation of the story of the Buddha, as early as 800 AD. Added to my never shrinking reading list, thanks!
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