mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2020 Posted April 24, 2020 1 hour ago, poptart said: So, feelings > Agreed historical facts? Not trying to start an argument here (for once), just asking. I know testimony and emotion are a huge thing to many here hence why I'm asking. Thanks. What is the purpose of the history? To show which church is "true"? What constitutes a church being true- historical facts about it? Can historical facts show you that there IS a God? That there really ARE three levels of celestial glory? Because Catholics supposedly have a direct line from Peter, lets grant that they so, does that prove that a piece of bread really IS the body of Christ, that we will rise from the dead, or become Gods? How do we know what GOD thinks of these assertions based on facts that have nothing to do with what God really thinks?? Because it is a sure fact (suppose) that a man named Jesus was crucified on a certain date, does that prove that there's an afterlife and believing this fact will it make you happy forever, and that your sins are forgiven, and that you will actually rise bodily from the dead though no one has ever done it verifiably before?? Where is all this history of people actually Rising because they believed in Jesus? Does history help you with that? The purpose of religion is to give you a purpose in life. It tells you where you came from and where you're going on your purpose in life. Scientific facts cannot give you purpose. Science doesn't even believe the Earth has a purpose. As Galileo said " Scripture teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go."
Spammer Posted April 24, 2020 Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Calm said: I believe Utah is the only state not in the list. There are twelve jurisdictions within the EO communion. The OCA (owner of the website portal linked above) is one of the twelve, but the OCA does not have a parish in Utah, which is why you couldn't find Utah on the list. There are nine churches from various other Orthodox jurisdictions in Utah. Here's a more comprehensive list: http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes?parish=&clergy=&city=&state=51&searchType=parish Edited April 24, 2020 by Spammer 2
Calm Posted April 24, 2020 Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Spammer said: There are twelve jurisdictions within the EO communion. The OCA (owner of the website portal linked above) is one of the twelve, but the OCA does not have a parish in Utah, which is why you couldn't find Utah on the list. There are nine churches from various other Orthodox jurisdictions in Utah. Here's a more comprehensive list: http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes?parish=&clergy=&city=&state=51&searchType=parish Thank you. It would have been very strange to have no Orthodox presence in Utah. I was pretty sure I had heard of some, so I figured it was a different group(s). The Price Church seems familiar though it has been almost a decade since we drove through there. Edited April 24, 2020 by Calm
poptart Posted April 26, 2020 Posted April 26, 2020 (edited) On 4/23/2020 at 8:34 PM, mfbukowski said: What is the purpose of the history? To show which church is "true"? What constitutes a church being true- historical facts about it? Can historical facts show you that there IS a God? That there really ARE three levels of celestial glory? Because Catholics supposedly have a direct line from Peter, lets grant that they so, does that prove that a piece of bread really IS the body of Christ, that we will rise from the dead, or become Gods? How do we know what GOD thinks of these assertions based on facts that have nothing to do with what God really thinks?? Because it is a sure fact (suppose) that a man named Jesus was crucified on a certain date, does that prove that there's an afterlife and believing this fact will it make you happy forever, and that your sins are forgiven, and that you will actually rise bodily from the dead though no one has ever done it verifiably before?? Where is all this history of people actually Rising because they believed in Jesus? Does history help you with that? The purpose of religion is to give you a purpose in life. It tells you where you came from and where you're going on your purpose in life. Scientific facts cannot give you purpose. Science doesn't even believe the Earth has a purpose. As Galileo said " Scripture teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go." Took some time to think on how to reply to this, here it is. The purpose of history? Depends what it’s about. Earth history? Human history? If we’re sticking with human history I think it’s to document our history as a species, nothing more. Granted, a lot of it does tend to be written by the victors, to this day we’re finding out the truth of things that were covered up due to wars, genocide and what not. Humans are self centered creatures, considering what's happening now they've finally been reminded that if mother nature is sick of us she can shake us off like fleas off a dog. The earth has been around for billions of years, we're but a flash of time in the grand scheme of earth history. I believe we're a part of nature, not supreme over it. Besides my own core beliefs, after having been almost fried by lightning a couple times while on mountaintops, yeah I appreciate the might of our mother earth. Many transplants to this state don't however hence why I think we see so many more deaths in the high country during the summer. God? I take a Taoist and Buddhist perspective. The divine, if real is so beyond us we cannot understand it, if we truly wish to understand it, live a good simple life. I’ve read some Lao Tzu and like his take on the belief of a supreme being. Keep in mind that while I’m a cultural Christian, at my core I’m a Nichiren Buddhis., I grew up with it, am still affiliated with temples and that’s that As a child once we lost our home and my fathers alcoholism really got bad no one would give us the time of day. Most religious folks didn't care nor did anyone raise a finger about the abuse mom and I had to go through. Like many (if not most who don't come from good secure families) I was on my own. It was moms side who always cared and well, since I was poor and well, homeless most christian kids esp. their parents didn't care for me. A good chunk of the time when their moms saw mine the racism would come out. The Buddhist temples tended to be far more accommodating and understanding towards the likes of me. I knew kids who were just like me, mixed breeds from Hawaii who were disliked there for looking haole and well, no one here seemed to like them either. I really wish parents here would do something about their kids entitlement and racism instead of expecting society to do their job. Last time I checked the Christian religion did emphasize personal responsibility. I know they don’t all do that but when you grow up like I did, it takes years to figure that out. Many (More like most) never do. I’d also defer to one of my favorite philosophers, if not my fav, Marcus Aurelius. His take on deity sums up how I’d answer those who grew up in the western Christian tradition as it points at two of my core values, accountability and personal responsibility. Be a good man, if God/the gods are real and good they will honor you in this life and the one to come. If they are evil, than you really have no business dealing with them as they most likely care nothing for you. If they don’t exist, you will contribute to your nation and leave things in better order then when you found them. Feelings matter little to me on this, what matters is action, nothing more. People rising? You mean realizing? I have no idea and to be honest it’s of little concern to me if it does or doesn’t, if you’re trying to ask if it’s an individual matter than yes, I agree with you 100% I won’t even touch that one, I’m trying to be as civil as possible here as my ideas on religion are most likely very, very different than most here. The part of me that is Christian (if you can even call it that) is very much Catholic and Lutheran. While I’m all for ecumenicalism, it’s also for that reason I respectfully appreciate our differences and say we focus on one of the main points of the gospel, making the world a better place and help create the kingdom of heaven on earth. I accept that aspect of science, always have ever since I was a child. I totally side with science on this one, the earth has no purpose, the earth is it’s own purpose. Is what it is. For me it’s also a no brainer, science meshes with Buddhism very well, the supreme law of the Buddha is cause and affect, we create our own destiny and are responsible for our own lives. Even when horrible things happen, it’s still on us. I like the old phrase, if it’s to be, it’s up to me. I’m with Galileo on that one too, Machiavelli said the same thing about the ecclesiastical powers, those are realms we as mortals really should leave to God. We have enough to deal with here on earth. BTW, I really am trying to be more civil with these kinds of things nowadays. You were kind enough to reply with an honest, sincere answer and I’m doing the same. I’m still amazed those who post here tolerate me as much as they have, most aren’t like that anymore. The days of live and let live seem to be gone. Edited April 26, 2020 by poptart 2
mfbukowski Posted April 26, 2020 Posted April 26, 2020 2 hours ago, poptart said: The purpose of history? Depends what it’s about. Earth history? Human history? If we’re sticking with human history I think it’s to document our history as a species, nothing more. Thanks for your reply. I want to take it apart, just to illustrate how I see things- this is not to be argumentative or expect a refutation or even a discussion. To me the above is a "tautology". It's hard to avoid those, but to me what this says is "The purpose of history is history". Obviously if I am right, that doesn't answer the question. The word is used in its own definition and so does not really explain the PURPOSE of history it simply describes what history IS, Quote I take a Taoist and Buddhist perspective. The divine, if real is so beyond us we cannot understand it, if we truly wish to understand it, live a good simple life. I’ve read some Lao Tzu and like his take on the belief of a supreme being. Keep in mind that while I’m a cultural Christian, at my core I’m a Nichiren Buddhist. Very interesting. I agree that the "reality" if the divine cannot be fully known/achieved here on earth- which perhaps is a bit of a contradiction to a Buddhist who sees Enlightenment as the goal of human life. I saw myself as a Buddhist for a period in my life, so I have some acquaintance with it, probably just enough to be "dangerous" in my ignorance. What I studied was Zen. My only knowledge of Nichiren Buddhism was extremely simplistic and hard to accept as even providing a sense of peace etc. So I apologize for that- it would be like a person who has only heard of Mormonism as seen from anti-Mormons, and yet these ostensibly were people who themselves chanted Nam-myōhō-renge-kyō to the Gohonzon and by doing so, I was told I could get anything I wanted in the world, including getting rid of parking tickets, fame and fortune etc. Coming from what I knew at the time about Taoism and Zen, I was not impressed- yet obviously a lot of intelligent people followed that path. I discounted it prematurely I am sure- as a path to Enlightenment. I apologize if any of that is offensive- I am just going by what I was told, now over forty years ago, on a college campus. So it really was out of my own ignorance. Quote I grew up with it, am still affiliated with temples and that’s that As a child once we lost our home and my fathers alcoholism really got bad no one would give us the time of day. Most religious folks didn't care nor did anyone raise a finger about the abuse mom and I had to go through. Like many (if not most who don't come from good secure families) I was on my own. It was moms side who always cared and well, since I was poor and well, homeless most christian kids esp. their parents didn't care for me. A good chunk of the time when their moms saw mine the racism would come out. The Buddhist temples tended to be far more accommodating and understanding towards the likes of me. I knew kids who were just like me, mixed breeds from Hawaii who were disliked there for looking haole and well, no one here seemed to like them either. I really wish parents here would do something about their kids entitlement and racism instead of expecting society to do their job. Last time I checked the Christian religion did emphasize personal responsibility. I know they don’t all do that but when you grow up like I did, it takes years to figure that out. Many (More like most) never do. You're right and I am sorry you had to go through all that, and yes, Christianity has a lot to learn about being "Christian". Quote I’d also defer to one of my favorite philosophers, if not my fav, Marcus Aurelius. His take on deity sums up how I’d answer those who grew up in the western Christian tradition as it points at two of my core values, accountability and personal responsibility. Be a good man, if God/the gods are real and good they will honor you in this life and the one to come. If they are evil, than you really have no business dealing with them as they most likely care nothing for you. If they don’t exist, you will contribute to your nation and leave things in better order then when you found them. Yes I can see this and in many ways you and I have been on a similar path- I also am a great fan of Stoicism which you have summarized very well here. And this is also Philosophical Pragmatism as well- what is important is what beliefs as tools "work" in real life, in action. And Mormonism as well has a good dose of that spirit in Alma 32 where one puts a belief into action as an experiment and sees if it "works" for him, And then of course 1 James and Moroni 10 stress taking personal responsibility for finding "truth" through action- inquiring of God what truth works for us individually. Like stoicism, it is about changing ATTITUDE. But that last sentence bothers me Quote Feelings matter little to me on this, what matters is action, nothing more. I am not sure how this is possible when you have just said accountability and personal responsibility and being a "good man" are of central importance- but how do you KNOW what IS "responsible" or "accountable" or "Good" without feeling in your heart that some action IS "responsible" or "accountable" or "Good"?? What do those terms even mean divorced from feelings in your heart? Quote People rising? You mean realizing? I have no idea and to be honest it’s of little concern to me if it does or doesn’t, if you’re trying to ask if it’s an individual matter than yes, I agree with you 100% I apologize- at the time I wrote that I thought that you were a believing Christian who believed in the resurrection. But here is my point on all this about history, which I think becomes even more acute now that I know you are from a Buddhist background: YOU of all people should be VERY aware of the difference between spiritual advancement and the personal history of the teacher! Pick your favorite Buddhist teacher and ask if his finding the path to enlightenment and "proving" that one can reach enlightenment has anything to do with history? Does the personal circumstances of the TEACHER have any affect on YOUR ability to reach enlightenment or spiritual advancement because HIS PERSONAL HISTORY? For example does the fact that Joseph was a polygamist change the importance of his teachings? Pick whatever personal history beef anyone has had and ask yourself if HIS personal history is relevant to his spiritual teachings? My belief is - "NO WAY!" Quote I accept that aspect of science, always have ever since I was a child. I totally side with science on this one, the earth has no purpose, the earth is it’s own purpose. Is what it is. For me it’s also a no brainer, science meshes with Buddhism very well, the supreme law of the Buddha is cause and affect, we create our own destiny and are responsible for our own lives. Even when horrible things happen, it’s still on us. I like the old phrase, if it’s to be, it’s up to me. I used the earth only as an example- the point I was trying to make is that WE CREATE our own stories about how philosophy/religion helps us- BECAUSE we find them- feel them to be- USEFUL. What does meditation do for you? There are benefits you FEEL in your heart! What IS enlightenment? Why does one seek to get out of the circle of reincarnation? When one loses one self, who is it who loses himself? Obviously language cannot express it. No logic, no action can "prove" it- so the only reason one would pursue ANY path- Buddhism, Christianity, etc etc- is some sense (feeling) of being drawn to the path. Mormons call that "The light of Christ". What is your purpose? Spiritual advancement or Enlightenment!! YOU still have a personal purpose- being a good responsible man who has achieved a higher spiritual level.. Same for Mormonism as Buddhism in many ways! Why does one FEEL one teacher is more to their LIKING (a feeling) than another? Why does one choose a path and exclude others? Quote I’m with Galileo on that one too, Machiavelli said the same thing about the ecclesiastical powers, those are realms we as mortals really should leave to God. We have enough to deal with here on earth. BTW, I really am trying to be more civil with these kinds of things nowadays. You were kind enough to reply with an honest, sincere answer and I’m doing the same. I’m still amazed those who post here tolerate me as much as they have, most aren’t like that anymore. The days of live and let live seem to be gone. Glad we agree on Galileo and Mack. That is really my central point- history is not spiritual enlightenment. Regarding being civil, I am trying to master that as well, but have far to go. Thanks for the conversation! I think we have both had our share of grumpiness hereabouts!
poptart Posted April 27, 2020 Posted April 27, 2020 23 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks for your reply. I want to take it apart, just to illustrate how I see things- this is not to be argumentative or expect a refutation or even a discussion. To me the above is a "tautology". It's hard to avoid those, but to me what this says is "The purpose of history is history". Obviously if I am right, that doesn't answer the question. The word is used in its own definition and so does not really explain the PURPOSE of history it simply describes what history IS, Very interesting. I agree that the "reality" if the divine cannot be fully known/achieved here on earth- which perhaps is a bit of a contradiction to a Buddhist who sees Enlightenment as the goal of human life. I saw myself as a Buddhist for a period in my life, so I have some acquaintance with it, probably just enough to be "dangerous" in my ignorance. What I studied was Zen. My only knowledge of Nichiren Buddhism was extremely simplistic and hard to accept as even providing a sense of peace etc. So I apologize for that- it would be like a person who has only heard of Mormonism as seen from anti-Mormons, and yet these ostensibly were people who themselves chanted Nam-myōhō-renge-kyō to the Gohonzon and by doing so, I was told I could get anything I wanted in the world, including getting rid of parking tickets, fame and fortune etc. Coming from what I knew at the time about Taoism and Zen, I was not impressed- yet obviously a lot of intelligent people followed that path. I discounted it prematurely I am sure- as a path to Enlightenment. I apologize if any of that is offensive- I am just going by what I was told, now over forty years ago, on a college campus. So it really was out of my own ignorance. You're right and I am sorry you had to go through all that, and yes, Christianity has a lot to learn about being "Christian". Yes I can see this and in many ways you and I have been on a similar path- I also am a great fan of Stoicism which you have summarized very well here. And this is also Philosophical Pragmatism as well- what is important is what beliefs as tools "work" in real life, in action. And Mormonism as well has a good dose of that spirit in Alma 32 where one puts a belief into action as an experiment and sees if it "works" for him, And then of course 1 James and Moroni 10 stress taking personal responsibility for finding "truth" through action- inquiring of God what truth works for us individually. Like stoicism, it is about changing ATTITUDE. But that last sentence bothers me I am not sure how this is possible when you have just said accountability and personal responsibility and being a "good man" are of central importance- but how do you KNOW what IS "responsible" or "accountable" or "Good" without feeling in your heart that some action IS "responsible" or "accountable" or "Good"?? What do those terms even mean divorced from feelings in your heart? I apologize- at the time I wrote that I thought that you were a believing Christian who believed in the resurrection. But here is my point on all this about history, which I think becomes even more acute now that I know you are from a Buddhist background: YOU of all people should be VERY aware of the difference between spiritual advancement and the personal history of the teacher! Pick your favorite Buddhist teacher and ask if his finding the path to enlightenment and "proving" that one can reach enlightenment has anything to do with history? Does the personal circumstances of the TEACHER have any affect on YOUR ability to reach enlightenment or spiritual advancement because HIS PERSONAL HISTORY? For example does the fact that Joseph was a polygamist change the importance of his teachings? Pick whatever personal history beef anyone has had and ask yourself if HIS personal history is relevant to his spiritual teachings? My belief is - "NO WAY!" I used the earth only as an example- the point I was trying to make is that WE CREATE our own stories about how philosophy/religion helps us- BECAUSE we find them- feel them to be- USEFUL. What does meditation do for you? There are benefits you FEEL in your heart! What IS enlightenment? Why does one seek to get out of the circle of reincarnation? When one loses one self, who is it who loses himself? Obviously language cannot express it. No logic, no action can "prove" it- so the only reason one would pursue ANY path- Buddhism, Christianity, etc etc- is some sense (feeling) of being drawn to the path. Mormons call that "The light of Christ". What is your purpose? Spiritual advancement or Enlightenment!! YOU still have a personal purpose- being a good responsible man who has achieved a higher spiritual level.. Same for Mormonism as Buddhism in many ways! Why does one FEEL one teacher is more to their LIKING (a feeling) than another? Why does one choose a path and exclude others? Glad we agree on Galileo and Mack. That is really my central point- history is not spiritual enlightenment. Regarding being civil, I am trying to master that as well, but have far to go. Thanks for the conversation! I think we have both had our share of grumpiness hereabouts! I'm making another thread, just finished my reply, don't want to derail anymore.
mfbukowski Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 On 4/27/2020 at 2:28 PM, poptart said: I'm making another thread, just finished my reply, don't want to derail anymore. I don't understand
poptart Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I don't understand 24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I don't understand See here. https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72846-buddhism-threadcontinuation-from-previous-thread/ I figured if we were going to get into a Buddhism discussion it may get lengthy as I'd want to explain myself, didn't want to derail this thread. Also, made it an open ended thread for anyone who's interested. 1
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