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More BYU honor code changes


Rain

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https://news.byu.edu/announcements/honor-code-office-implements-new-student-communication-and-internal-assessment-system

"The secure letter will state the reported misconduct and include additional information about a student’s rights within the process" (this comes through a new electronic system and lets them know when first notified.) "Alternatively, the letter may state that they are invited to meet with an administrator only as a witness."

Edited by Rain
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4 hours ago, Rain said:

https://news.byu.edu/announcements/honor-code-office-implements-new-student-communication-and-internal-assessment-system

"The secure letter will state the reported misconduct and include additional information about a student’s rights within the process" (this comes through a new electronic system and lets them know when first notified.) "Alternatively, the letter may state that they are invited to meet with an administrator only as a witness."

I read about this the other day. All of these changes are very necessary and long overdue. When I read about the changes made (this round and the past rounds), it makes me a bit sick knowing these protections or common sense fundamentals, were not in place. For me, it is too little too late in the sense, I would not subject my child to the honor code system again. Even, when fair, students at that age will make mistakes and the mixing of secular education and spiritual expectations are not always what is best. 

Edited by bsjkki
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27 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I read about this the other day. All of these changes are very necessary and long overdue. When I read about the changes made (this round and the past rounds), it makes me a bit sick knowing these protections or common sense fundamentals, were not in place. For me, it is too little too late in the sense, I would not subject my child to the honor code system again. Even, when fairm students at that age will make mistakes and the mixing of secular education and spiritual expectations are not always what is best. 

I have a child going on a mission with plans to go to BYUI when he gets home. He doesn't understand my concerns.  I keep hoping that by the time he comes home that it will be straightened out. 

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16 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I read about this the other day. All of these changes are very necessary and long overdue. When I read about the changes made (this round and the past rounds), it makes me a bit sick knowing these protections or common sense fundamentals, were not in place. For me, it is too little too late in the sense, I would not subject my child to the honor code system again. Even, when fair, students at that age will make mistakes and the mixing of secular education and spiritual expectations are not always what is best. 

When I dropped our daughter off at BYI many years ago when Elder Bednar was running it, he told the parents in the group orientation that BYI "isn't for everyone," the expectations are unique (which I take to refer to the spiritual side of its mission), not every student is prepared to work hard, and not every student will succeed -- or something to that effect. I think college is not for everyone, and every college or kind of college (such as BYU/I/H)is not for every student, but every student could benefit from wise parental guidance in navigating these choices.

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18 hours ago, Rain said:

I have a child going on a mission with plans to go to BYUI when he gets home. He doesn't understand my concerns.  I keep hoping that by the time he comes home that it will be straightened out. 

I know parents who are frightened to send their children to any other school than BYU, supposing perhaps that the temptations at other schools will be beyond their ability to resist.  Why are kids going off to college so vulnerable and weak?  Why all the need for trigger warnings and safe spaces?

I came to BYU in 1963 completely unaware of any dangers, never encountered any honor code people, and was more or less oblivious to reality.  I was too busy studying, writing papers, and taking tests.  I went off to other schools (UCLA, Hebrew Univ of Jerusalem, etc.) and did the same.  Student life seemed the same there as at BYU, the demands pretty much the same.  What am I missing?

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42 minutes ago, Rain said:

Honestly, it first starts with how I felt about it before going to college and while I was in college. I didn't want to be told what to do all the time. It wasn't that I planned on not living by the rules. It was just I figured I was an adult and could make those choices for myself. 

It amazed me how many people encouraged me on my mission to go to BYU instead of back to USU because USU was such a "party" school. Yet I never saw a party there nor even was invited. I'm sure they happened. I just wasn't hanging around with the people that went to them.

Then one year my family attended BYUI for Education Week. One of my sons was really struggling. I hoped and prayed that he would find something there to help him. He wore a necklace with no symbols and was stopped and told it was inappropriate for BYUI. He didn't go back to another class after that.

I've started to hear a number of stories from parents of students who have struggled with it - and not just from the side of the rule breaker - from parents of the rule breakers friends and roommates.

I have worked really hard teaching my children that while we live according to our beliefs, we allow other people to live the way they choose. We love them and let the Lord take care of the judging of them - and us.  I don't want to put my youngest, a very straight arrow, in an atmosphere that encourages him not only to tell people not to wear capris, but also report when they do. I feel that encourages immaturity and I'm raising my children to be adults.

 

 Sorry for my earlier petulant response.  

If you’ve raised your son well, he’ll make a good decision.  If that ends up being BYU, I’ll wager it’ll be a good choice for him.  It certainly was for me.

Edited by Okrahomer
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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I know parents who are frightened to send their children to any other school than BYU, supposing perhaps that the temptations at other schools will be beyond their ability to resist.

For me, BYU was about having a large marriage pool for my kids****...by the time he was eligible, we were living in Utah and he married his fellow YA rep...14 years later still going strong.

Daughter unlikely to marry, so different set of concerns now.

****My husband being a prof, wasn't worried about tuition costs, though that only worked one year as he got married pretty quickly.

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7 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

It seems as if you (and perhaps a few others here)  want some sort of confirmation that you're negative feelings about BYU are correct.

Nah, Rain isn't like that.  She is just sharing her POV and providing information on how it developed, just as she does with positive comments.  I appreciate her and others taking the time because one of the reasons I love the board is I not only get to learn what people think, I get a chance to see how those thoughts develop,

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Nah, Rain isn't like that.  She is just sharing her POV and providing information on how it developed, just as she does with positive comments.  I appreciate her and others taking the time because one of the reasons I love the board is I not only get to learn what people think, I get a chance to see how those thoughts develop,

Thanks.  I apologize for being exasperated.  I guess I’m in a bit of “mood” today. I’ll retract...and retreat.

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1 minute ago, Okrahomer said:

Thanks.  I apologize for being exasperated.  I guess I’m in a bit of “mood” today. I’ll retract...and retreat.

You are a good guy, Okra.  I figured you are fond of BYU for good reason.

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are a good guy, Okra.  I figured you are fond of BYU for good reason.

Thank you.  I’m missing family today and a bit homesick.  I come here, because it feels a bit like “home.”  Unfortunately, my thought processes aren’t fully operational.

I appreciate the reminder to be kind — to assume good intent.  Also, it gave me a chance to remove that horrendous “you’re” where I meant to type “your”.  🙄

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So family not around or are you not around family (on a trip)?

I have gotten to a stage in my life that it is uncomfortable to not have my husband and daughter around, my brain has included them as part of its processing or something...like they are external hard drives or something. I used to love it when my husband went off to conferences as it was nice to just live life on my terms for a short time.   Not so much independence anymore lol. I enjoy their company too much. 

Edited by Calm
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15 minutes ago, Calm said:

So family not around or are you not around family (on a trip)?

I have gotten to a stage in my life that it is uncomfortable to not have my husband and daughter around, my brain has included them as part of its processing or something...like they are external hard drives or something. I used to love it when my husband went off to conferences as it was nice to just live life on my terms for a short time.   Not so much independence anymore lol. I enjoy their company too much. 

I’m 100% with you on that.

I lost my job — of more than 20 years — back in January.  It took 7 long months to find a new one.  Only problem:  it’s more than 7 hours away from home.  With cell phones and the like, I talk with my wife every day.  Sometimes more than once.  And I talk with the kids too, but a lot less frequently.  The odd thing is that direct verbal communication may actually have increased.  But of course it’s not the same.

Sorry for the detail...as well as the derail.

 

Edited by Okrahomer
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1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

Thank you.  I’m missing family today and a bit homesick.  I come here, because it feels a bit like “home.”  Unfortunately, my thought processes aren’t fully operational.

I appreciate the reminder to be kind — to assume good intent.  Also, it gave me a chance to remove that horrendous “you’re” where I meant to type “your”.  🙄

I'm sorry you are missing family right now. 

I appreciate your apology - I actually didn't see your post till looking just now where calm quoted it, or part of it.   I would like to address that anyway for all. 

"It seems as if you (and perhaps a few others here)  want some sort of confirmation that you're negative feelings about BYU are correct."

I actually have very positive feelings for BYU. It annoyed me that people kept telling me I should go there - because it seemed to be saying I did not have good judgment in where I went to school, who I hung around with and might be tempted to participate in all those wild parties. These missionaries and companions didn't think better of me? 

However, I had a lot of love for BYU. If they were playing against UofU I cheered for BYU. If I heard good things about it I was happy.

After attending BYU Ed week in Provo for several years I hoped to have children going there. 

When we did the college tour of BYUI with my daughter the first day I thought, "I could never attend here, but it might be ok for her as she is very different than me." She was thrilled with the campus. Found places she loved. Decided this is where she wanted to go. And I thought for this young homebody it might be right. Except as she prayed about it then Heavenly Father said he had other things in mind for her.

But my sons are different. I just keep hoping that with my youngest that either there are more honor code changes or that he decides to go somewhere else after his mission. There are just things about how it is done that won't help him grow. 

Edited by Rain
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3 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

I’m 100% with you on that.

I lost my job — of more than 20 years — back in January.  It took 7 long months to find a new one.  Only problem:  it’s more than 7 hours away from home.  With cell phones and the like, I talk with my wife every day.  Sometimes more than once.  And I talk with the kids too, but a lot less frequently.  The odd thing is that direct verbal communication may actually ha e increased.  But of course it’s not the same.

Sorry for the detail.

 

I'm happy you found a new job but separation from your spouse and traveling take a toll. That is tough! On another note,  I'm grateful for all those who put up with me and my excessive grammatical errors. It's always been a challenge for me. Maybe it's because I'm a BYU dropout. 🤣 (Not kicked out...just the normal married and pregnant issue.)

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8 minutes ago, Rain said:

There are just things about how it is done that won't help him grow. 

That’s the sort of invaluable insight a parent would have, and I think you should not disregard it.  As I said, I’ll wager his choice will be a good one,  because of how you’ve raised and counseled him.

It strikes me as extremely foolish for anyone to criticize a person’s decision to seek higher education — any education, anywhere — is a good thing.

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8 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

That’s the sort of invaluable insight a parent would have, and I think you should not disregard it.  As I said, I’ll wager his choice will be a good one,  because of how you’ve raised and counseled him.

How I wish that was all there was to it. Children have this pesky thing called agency.

8 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

It strikes me as extremely foolish for anyone to criticize a person’s decision to seek higher education — any education, anywhere — is a good thing.

 

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15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Maybe it's because I'm a BYU dropout. 🤣 (Not kicked out...just the normal married and pregnant issue.)

Haha!  I’m sure BYU would welcome you back, so you can finish what you started.

I’m trying to make the most of this “alone time.”  It’s not something I was expecting to confront at this stage of life.  These unexpected turns and curves and dips and dives make this journey we’re all on endlessly interesting, don’t you think?

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4 hours ago, Rain said:

............................... He wore a necklace with no symbols and was stopped and told it was inappropriate for BYUI. He didn't go back to another class after that.

I've started to hear a number of stories from parents of students who have struggled with it - and not just from the side of the rule breaker - from parents of the rule breakers friends and roommates.

I have worked really hard teaching my children that while we live according to our beliefs, we allow other people to live the way they choose. We love them and let the Lord take care of the judging of them - and us.  I don't want to put my youngest, a very straight arrow, in an atmosphere that encourages him not only to tell people not to wear capris, but also report when they do. I feel that encourages immaturity and I'm raising my children to be adults.

One apparently has to choose between Jesus and the strict rules of the Pharisees & Sadducees.  Jesus concerned about the heart, the others about outward appearance.  Back in the McCarthy era of the 1950s, when everyone was required to sign loyalty oaths, and Commies were being outed, Hugh Nibley had some harsh criticisms for those who judged BYU students on how they looked rather than on what they thought.  At the Y, students were afraid to ask serious questions in class.  It was all about conformity.  Then in the 1960s, BYU President Ernie Wilkinson was caught running a spy-ring monitoring what professors were saying in class.  He at first denied it, but was finally caught with his pants down when a student confessed to being part of that spy ring.  Lou Midgley tells the story brilliantly, and he was the professor who obtained that confession.

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