Handcart era -- correcting some false assumptions

[6EQUJ5]

On 7/30/2019 at 10:06 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

By way of clarification, I don’t share 6EQ’s opinion that “our pioneer ancestors didn’t actually have it that hard.” I do object when I see the handcart experience being used as an occasion to find fault with the Church when the handcart venture by and large was successful if one brackets the anomalous episode of the Willie and Martin companies. 

I'm sorry, Scott.  But "6EQ" is an unauthorized nickname  and it's use is offensive.  Please observe the naming standards where you may use the full username: "6EQUJ5" or the shortened form, "Q"

You may also refer to me as "that really really smart person" or "everyone's favorite poster."  I accept both.

Edited August 1, 2019 by 6EQUJ5

[Vance]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 11:12 AM, USU78 said:

The death tolls might have included the awful forces winter trek from Missouri to Nauvoo, as well as well as the forced winter trek across Iowa. 

What precisely is the point here? That evil, wicked, mean, and bad, and nasty patriarchal white devils disguised as men held back from poor women resources that would have alleviated suffering?

There were no resources withheld. Those in charge of the westering allocated what they could from what they had.

If you must blame somebody, why not the vicious beasts who made the westering necessary? The ones who killed her who should have been my great, great grandmother, who lies with her twin babies in Iowa somewhere on the way, and her who was my great, great grandmother, who lies in the Brigham City cemetery with her twin babies whom we lost during the trek to Payson in advance of Johnston's Army.

Don't you get it?  If the Church were true the death toll would have been ZERO!!!!!!!

 

People died on the trail,  THEREFORE the Church is false.  Simple basic logic. 

[aussieguy55]

Wil Bagley  has an interesting article on the handcarts    https://user.xmission.com/~research/central/handcart.pdf

"“The carts were poor ones, with wooden axles, leather boxes, and light iron tires, and the squeaking of the wheels, through lack of sufficient grease could often be ‘heard a mile,’” recalled John Jaques, who traveled in the Martin Company.89* “We expected to find these vehicles already at hand on our arrival at Iowa City,” Elizabeth Kingsford remembered. “This work consumed between two and three weeks of time, in which we should have been wending our way to Salt Lake City.”90** As with the first three companies, the poorly built carts proved to be difficult to use and broke down with alarming regularity. Danish handcart captain John A. Ahmanson, who reached Utah with the Willie Company in December 1856 (only to turn around and leave forever the next April), called these vehicles “tohjulede Menneskepiner,” which has been translated as “two wheeled instruments of human torture” but might be bettered rendered as “two-wheeled torture devices.”91

 

 

 

 

[USU78]

On 8/1/2019 at 7:02 PM, Vance said:

Don't you get it?  If the Church were true the death toll would have been ZERO!!!!!!!

 

People died on the trail,  THEREFORE the Church is false.  Simple basic logic. 

And if we die before our journey's through, happy day, all is well.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

And if we die before our journey's through, happy day, all is well.

There is even an argument to be made that they were the lucky ones.

[Maestrophil]

On 7/30/2019 at 5:58 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Point well taken. 

It should be borne in mind that it wasn’t solely the decision of Church leaders to have the Willey and Martin companies press on despite the lateness of the season and other factors. As depicted in the movie “17 Miracles,” the travelers themselves voted in favor of it. 

In fact, the hero of the movie, Levi Savage, urged them not to do it, but when he saw they were determined, he pledged to travel with them, suffer with them and, if need be, die with them. 

He was subjected to unjust censure from leaders due to his opposition to the proposal. 

Correct - they voted in favor with the knowledge firmly impressed on them that their leaders wanted them to go - and saw what happened to Bro Savage when he dissented.  

 

Levi Savage was the man who served my 3Xg grandfathers his last meal.  He is mentioned in the movie you reference too.   On my mission, I had the privilege to serve with and Elder Savage, who was a descendant of Levi - it was really cool to have the ancestors fo two men who shared such a friendship in the handcart companies.  

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Correct - they voted in favor with the knowledge firmly impressed on them that their leaders wanted them to go - and saw what happened to Bro Savage when he dissented.  

 

Levi Savage was the man who served my 3Xg grandfathers his last meal.  He is mentioned in the movie you reference too.   On my mission, I had the privilege to serve with and Elder Savage, who was a descendant of Levi - it was really cool to have the ancestors fo two men who shared such a friendship in the handcart companies.  

It’s not self-evident to me that they were scared into voting in favor of it by seeing what happened to Levi Savage. Do you have evidence of that?

It’s quite possible they were already eager to go in the first place. As I mentioned earlier, waiting for a year would have had its costs as well, especially for a people in transit who did not know where their next meal was coming from and had not counted on a year’s delay before setting out on the overland portion of their journey. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Maestrophil]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s not self-evident to me that they were scared into voting in favor of it by seeing what happened to Levi Savage. Do you have evidence of that.

It’s quite possible they were already eager to go in the first place. As I mentioned earlier, waiting for a year would have had its costs as well, especially for a people in transit who did not know where their next meal was coming from and had not counted on a year’s delay before setting out on the overland portion of their journey. 

By no means am I saying that this was the only reason they voted to go - in fact, as I stated, I admire their eagerness to get to Zion and their faith - but I cannot help but think that the strong stance of leaders to go influenced them.  Nothing is simple and black and white - as I stated before.  🙂  

I think all involved were doing what they thought best - and the results were tragic - but the faith, strength and courage involved by the handcart members is to lauded IMO