What is the DEAL w/ Denver Snuffer?

[bdouglas]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:57 AM, PacMan said:

I attended a legal CLE he presented. I was both unimpressed and came away with the impression that he thinks much about himself - unjustifiably so. I also think he came off as a bit quirky.

Because there is a member of my extended family who has become a Fundamentalist, I have spent a little time reading about Denver Snuffer, Jim Harmston, and lately Mauricio Berger (the Brazilian excommunicated LDS who says he’s translated the sealed portion).

There are two qualities (among others) these Fundamentalist LDS share, in my opinion.

One, quirky; or weird. They don't begin as quirky/weird, but they seem to become so as time goes on. It is hard to pinpoint exactly, but it is there.

Two, narcissism. You see this when Jim Harmston announced that he was Joseph Smith in a new probation. Or in the supposed revelation Mr. Snuffer received proclaiming that his name is now changed to David. For all Snuffer’s fake modesty, the narcissism is there.

Denver Snuffer, Jim Harmston, Christopher Nemelka, Mauricio Berger——for me, these guys are all just Gospel Hobbyists, impossible to take seriously. They are examples of what happens when zeal runs amuck; or “zeal without knowledge” (Nibley); or zeal without the necessary balancing qualities of knowledge and wisdom.

Edited September 17, 2019 by bdouglas

[PacMan]

9 hours ago, bdouglas said:

Because there is a member of my extended family who has become a Fundamentalist, I have spent a little time reading about Denver Snuffer, Jim Harmston, and lately Mauricio Berger (the Brazilian excommunicated LDS who says he’s translated the sealed portion).

There are two qualities (among others) these Fundamentalist LDS share, in my opinion.

One, quirky; or weird. They don't begin as quirky/weird, but they seem to become so as time goes on. It is hard to pinpoint exactly, but it is there.

Two, narcissism. You see this when Jim Harmston announced that he was Joseph Smith in a new probation. Or in the supposed revelation Mr. Snuffer received proclaiming that his name is now changed to David. For all Snuffer’s fake modesty, the narcissism is there.

Denver Snuffer, Jim Harmston, Christopher Nemelka, Mauricio Berger——for me, these guys are all just Gospel Hobbyists, impossible to take seriously. They are examples of what happens when zeal runs amuck; or “zeal without knowledge” (Nibley); or zeal without the necessary balancing qualities of knowledge and wisdom.

Agreed. I have also found that this narcissism manifests itself with these people in really believing they think they know something others don’t know.  And they’re weird about it. Like it’s a hide and seek game of mysteries; and while they tell everyone about the game, only they know the rules. 

[Blind from Birth]

There’s a lot of misinformation being thrown around here, so I’ll add a few clarifying comments. 

Bryce Bartel never said a tornado would destroy the SLC temple in August of 2019.  He said that a sign would be given sometime in the year 2019 indicating that the LDS Church is without a covenant.  The tornado prophecy is mentioned separately and given no specific timeframe.  You can read what he said for yourself here: http://salemthoughts.com/Topics/Bryce_Bartel.pdf

The videos Bryce posted on youtube did use very basic animation to illustrate what he was saying, like a great many informational videos on youtube do.  To call them “cartoons”, and emphasize that as though it somehow discredits the content, is just a means of demeaning the message and messenger to make them seem less relevant, which has been a common reaction to prophets and their messages throughout time.

In relation to that, all the comments about the many “quirky” and “narcissistic” people who have fallen into disfavor with the Church clearly don’t take into consideration the quirky and narcissistic character of pretty much every scriptural prophet.  It was common for prophets to be mocked and cast out as “mad”.  How narcissistic was it for Joseph to tell his brothers about his dreams that they would one day all bow down to him?  Or for John the Baptist to proclaim that he was the prophesied messenger who would prepare the way for the Lord?  How quirky was it for Isaiah to go around preaching naked for 3 years?  Or for Hosea to marry a prostitute?

To dismiss anyone simply because of their “quirky” or “narcissistic” nature is exactly what the scriptures tell us not to do.  Don’t rely on other people’s oversimplified summaries and biased opinions to determine the validity of a messenger or message.  If you want to know the truth, you have to put in the time to study it out for yourself.

[SettingDogStar]

51 minutes ago, Blind from Birth said:

There’s a lot of misinformation being thrown around here, so I’ll add a few clarifying comments. 

Bryce Bartel never said a tornado would destroy the SLC temple in August of 2019.  He said that a sign would be given sometime in the year 2019 indicating that the LDS Church is without a covenant.  The tornado prophecy is mentioned separately and given no specific timeframe.  You can read what he said for yourself here: http://salemthoughts.com/Topics/Bryce_Bartel.pdf

The videos Bryce posted on youtube did use very basic animation to illustrate what he was saying, like a great many informational videos on youtube do.  To call them “cartoons”, and emphasize that as though it somehow discredits the content, is just a means of demeaning the message and messenger to make them seem less relevant, which has been a common reaction to prophets and their messages throughout time.

In relation to that, all the comments about the many “quirky” and “narcissistic” people who have fallen into disfavor with the Church clearly don’t take into consideration the quirky and narcissistic character of pretty much every scriptural prophet.  It was common for prophets to be mocked and cast out as “mad”.  How narcissistic was it for Joseph to tell his brothers about his dreams that they would one day all bow down to him?  Or for John the Baptist to proclaim that he was the prophesied messenger who would prepare the way for the Lord?  How quirky was it for Isaiah to go around preaching naked for 3 years?  Or for Hosea to marry a prostitute?

To dismiss anyone simply because of their “quirky” or “narcissistic” nature is exactly what the scriptures tell us not to do.  Don’t rely on other people’s oversimplified summaries and biased opinions to determine the validity of a messenger or message.  If you want to know the truth, you have to put in the time to study it out for yourself.

I had the same thoughts. Joseph receiving revelation for himself, giving himself keys, and writing his self into the BoM could be considered pretty darn narcissistic. Just becuase sowmone proclaims themself a prophet does not make them immediately evil and attentions seeking, ALL prophets have done that.

[boo]

If quirkiness disqualifies one to be a true messenger you have just about disqualified every prophet mentioned in either the Old and New Testaments or the Book of Mormon. Dont you see God always chooses the outlier. The outcast. He doesn't choose the rich, successful ,powerful, or well educated. He doesn't choose the well connected or mover and shaker in the community. The savior was the son of a carpenter who was a penniless itinerant preacher who hung out with prostitutes and drunks and the outcasts of society and was himself homeless. Lehi was cast out of his society and rejected by members of his  family because he was a visionary man who was accused of teaching false doctrine. most of you don't remember the "preacher" in the endowment but he was there to show us that slick .successful establishment types who are paid to preach the gospel are always in the employ of Satan.

[bdouglas]

 When Jim Harmston, the Manti Fundie (Fundamentalist) died, his movement broke up; and while there are (at least I have heard) a handful of hardcore followers still in Manti, for the most part, his movement does not exist anymore. If Harmston is remembered at all in the years to come, it will be as a Weirdo Gospel-Hobbyist Fundie who strutted about for a time and then sank without a trace.

So it was also with James Strang. I think there are a few Strang-ites still about, a handful or hardcore followers who read his inspired translation of the Voree plates and his other writings/revelations. But really, with his death, he also sank without a trace.

And then there was Maurice Glendenning, who had several revelations, revelations which he published and which attracted a small group of believers. But when he died, his revelations died with him and he is forgotten. Not even the Levites in Eksdale believe his revelations anymore.

And right now, in addition to Mr. Snuffer, there is Mauricio Berger, who has translated the sealed portion. This translation is amazingly bad, total nonsense from top to bottom (it actually reads like BOM fan fiction might, written by a precocious 7th grader), but still, Mauricio has his believers, among them one Joseph Frederick Smith, a descendant of JS. But  when Mauricio dies, he will also sink without a trace (actually this will probably happen before he dies), just like Strang, Harmston, Glendenning, and the five hundred other Fundie Prophets/Gospel-Hobbyists who appeared and then disappeared after the death of JS, failing to establish any kind of a foothold.

And so, I predict, will it be with Mr. Snuffer. After he is gone, his revelations will become curiosities, cultural artifacts, like Strang’s translation of the Voree plates or Maurice Glendenning’s silly productions.

Mr. Snuffer appeals to Gospel-Hobbyists and Fundies by promising a more robust Mormonism, with visions and revelations aplenty, a return to the glory days of JS. In fact, he now styles himself, I have heard, like a prophet circa 1850, complete with long white wispy hair and beard. I almost expect him to start writing his revelations on foolscap paper using iron-based ink, “just as Joseph did.” (Literalism is, after all, the Fundie disease.)

In short, Denver Snuffer is a fake, a fraud, just like Jim Harmson, Mauricio Berger, Maurice Glendenning, and the hundreds of other Fundie Prophets who preceded him and are now forgotten.

P.S. - One unique aspect of today’s new Fundie Prophets is that they eschew polygamy. Jim Harmston didn’t, but Mr. Snuffer does, as does Mauricio Berger. How they reconcile this with JS polygamy, I don’t know. 

P.S. 2 - The member of my extended family, who followed Mr. Snuffer for a time (less than a year), is now back in the fold. “I have learned my lesson,” he said.

[SettingDogStar]

3 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

 When Jim Harmston, the Manti Fundie (Fundamentalist) died, his movement broke up; and while there are (at least I have heard) a handful of hardcore followers still in Manti, for the most part, his movement does not exist anymore. If Harmston is remembered at all in the years to come, it will be as a Weirdo Gospel-Hobbyist Fundie who strutted about for a time and then sank without a trace.

So it was also with James Strang. I think there are a few Strang-ites still about, a handful or hardcore followers who read his inspired translation of the Voree plates and his other writings/revelations. But really, with his death, he also sank without a trace.

And then there was Maurice Glendenning, who had several revelations, revelations which he published and which attracted a small group of believers. But when he died, his revelations died with him and he is forgotten. Not even the Levites in Eksdale believe his revelations anymore.

And right now, in addition to Mr. Snuffer, there is Mauricio Berger, who has translated the sealed portion. This translation is amazingly bad, total nonsense from top to bottom (it actually reads like BOM fan fiction might, written by a precocious 7th grader), but still, Mauricio has his believers, among them one Joseph Frederick Smith, a descendant of JS. But  when Mauricio dies, he will also sink without a trace (actually this will probably happen before he dies), just like Strang, Harmston, Glendenning, and the five hundred other Fundie Prophets/Gospel-Hobbyists who appeared and then disappeared after the death of JS, failing to establish any kind of a foothold.

And so, I predict, will it be with Mr. Snuffer. After he is gone, his revelations will become curiosities, cultural artifacts, like Strang’s translation of the Voree plates or Maurice Glendenning’s silly productions.

Mr. Snuffer appeals to Gospel-Hobbyists and Fundies by promising a more robust Mormonism, with visions and revelations aplenty, a return to the glory days of JS. In fact, he now styles himself, I have heard, like a prophet circa 1850, complete with long white wispy hair and beard. I almost expect him to start writing his revelations on foolscap paper using iron-based ink, “just as Joseph did.” (Literalism is, after all, the Fundie disease.)

In short, Denver Snuffer is a fake, a fraud, just like Jim Harmson, Mauricio Berger, Maurice Glendenning, and the hundreds of other Fundie Prophets who preceded him and are now forgotten.

P.S. - One unique aspect of today’s new Fundie Prophets is that they eschew polygamy. Jim Harmston didn’t, but Mr. Snuffer does, as does Mauricio Berger. How they reconcile this with JS polygamy, I don’t know. 

P.S. 2 - The member of my extended family, who followed Mr. Snuffer for a time (less than a year), is now back in the fold. “I have learned my lesson,” he said.

The thing is the fellowships I still associate with occasionally seem very strong, and no mention of Denver almost ever comes up. Other then the handful of (very very small)  revelations that got added to their cannon he basically hasn’t been doing anything. He hasn’t been leading the break off, teaching in big groups, doing lecture series, or even posting in his blog or doing much else. He did his tour for Christian denominations and I’m not sure what he’s doing next other then showing up and being one of many speakers for the next conference.

Its interesting to watch for sure. I have a feeling “his” movement won’t die as quickly as others

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, boo said:

If quirkiness disqualifies one to be a true messenger you have just about disqualified every prophet mentioned in either the Old and New Testaments or the Book of Mormon. Dont you see God always chooses the outlier. The outcast. He doesn't choose the rich, successful ,powerful, or well educated. He doesn't choose the well connected or mover and shaker in the community. The savior was the son of a carpenter who was a penniless itinerant preacher who hung out with prostitutes and drunks and the outcasts of society and was himself homeless. Lehi was cast out of his society and rejected by members of his  family because he was a visionary man who was accused of teaching false doctrine. most of you don't remember the "preacher" in the endowment but he was there to show us that slick .successful establishment types who are paid to preach the gospel are always in the employ of Satan.

I believe Satan in the Live played endowments is still just dressed in a black suit, business style. A little confusing haha

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

When Jim Harmston, the Manti Fundie (Fundamentalist) died, his movement broke up; and while there are (at least I have heard) a handful of hardcore followers still in Manti, for the most part, his movement does not exist anymore.

A few years ago (2-3) I drove through Manti and I noticed that the "Red Brick Store" had no signage on it, and appeared to be closed down.  

Here's the Google Street view (dated from April 2018):

Compare this to an earlier image:

Thanks,

-Smac

[Nevermormon]

Actually, Denver has quite a following, mostly drawing from disillusioned Mormons who believe the LDS have lost the fervor of the early days, and that revelation is basically non existent - the Church having become a corporation. Denver has lit the fire under many Mormons who view him as a sort of prophet, and as was pointed out above,  his group is growing a little faster than Smith''s. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Blind from Birth said:

In relation to that, all the comments about the many “quirky” and “narcissistic” people who have fallen into disfavor with the Church clearly don’t take into consideration the quirky and narcissistic character of pretty much every scriptural prophet.  It was common for prophets to be mocked and cast out as “mad”.  How narcissistic was it for Joseph to tell his brothers about his dreams that they would one day all bow down to him?  Or for John the Baptist to proclaim that he was the prophesied messenger who would prepare the way for the Lord?  How quirky was it for Isaiah to go around preaching naked for 3 years?  Or for Hosea to marry a prostitute?

There are a lot of quirky prophets amongst the homeless population here in the Puget Sound area. A close relative, an unfortunate but beloved victim of PCB and other drugs, spent the later years of his life roaming around hirsute, shoeless, and quoting whole chapters of Isaiah from memory.

If quirkiness is an indication of prophetic material, we all pretty much would qualify. Just ask Sister Gui and the little Guis. 

There must be some other criteria, no? 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[bdouglas]

I once heard from a member of Elder Richard Scott’s family that, in his spare time, he would sometimes paint in the bathroom with water colors. He was an amateur artist and he sometimes did his painting in the bathroom.

This is an example of maybe a quirk. But it is not the same thing as weird. These guys like Denver Snuffer become weirdos.

Jim Harmston arguing with his followers about whether it is permissible to be in bed with more than one wife at one time is weird. John Koyle digging for years and years at the dream mine for gold when geologist Elder James Talmage said there is no gold because the mountain is gravel is weird. Going down into the basement of your home in the middle of the night and babbling away in tongues (as my relative did a couple of times) is weird. Christopher Nemelka (or Mr. Snuffer) dressing like an 1850s street preacher in NYC when it is not 1850 but 2019 is weird.

The wife of my relative who for a short time was a follower of Mr. Snuffer (and during this time went out all out to have his calling and election made sure and to “see the face of the Lord”) said something very interesting. She said, “Mike’s [not his real name] appearance even changed——and not for the good. Something about his appearance actually changed. It was actually quite alarming to me.” In other words, he began to be weird; he was on the road to becoming a weirdo.

The influence of the Holy Ghost——the real Holy  Ghost, not Satan’s imitation——does not make people weird. It does just the opposite.

Edited September 19, 2019 by bdouglas

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are a lot of quirky prophets amongst the homeless population here in the Puget Sound area. A close relative, an unfortunate but beloved victim of PCB and other drugs, spent the later years of his life roaming around hirsute, shoeless, and quoting whole chapters of Isaiah from memory.

If quirkiness is an indication of prophetic material, we all pretty much would qualify. Just ask Sister Gui and the little Guis. 

There must be some other criteria, no? 

 

It’s not an indication of prophethood, but it’s usually a shared trait.

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, bdouglas said:

I once heard from a member of Elder Richard Scott’s family that, in his spare time, he would sometimes paint in the bathroom with water colors. He was an amateur artist and he sometimes did his painting in the bathroom.

This is an example of maybe a quirk. But it is not the same thing as weird. These guys like Denver Snuffer become weirdos.

Jim Harmston arguing with his followers about whether it is permissible to be in bed with more than one wife at one time is weird. John Koyle digging for years and years at the dream mine for gold when geologist Elder James Talmage said there is no gold because the mountain is gravel is weird. Going down into the basement of your home in the middle of the night and babbling away in tongues (as my relative did a couple of times) is weird. Christopher Nemelka (or Mr. Snuffer) dressing like an 1850s street preacher in NYC when it is not 1850 but 2019 is weird.

The wife of my relative who for a short time was a follower of Mr. Snuffer (and during this time went out all out to have his calling and election made sure and to “see the face of the Lord”) said something very interesting. She said, “Mike’s [not his real name] appearance even changed——and not for the good. Something about his appearance actually changed. It was actually quite alarming to me.” In other words, he began to be weird; he was on the road to becoming a weirdo.

The influence of the Holy Ghost——the real Holy  Ghost, not Satan’s imitation——does not make people weird. It does just the opposite.

Denver never dressed like 1850s preacher. He just has a mild beard and is balding. I’m pretty sure he shaved it recently as well. To my knowledge Denver hasn’t done anything greatly “weird” other then proclaim the church is false (which isn’t weird, just wrong) and recieved a few revelations that got published. Nothing really odd there compared to any other prophet, especially Joseph Smith.

[bdouglas]

53 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Denver never dressed like 1850s preacher. He just has a mild beard and is balding. I’m pretty sure he shaved it recently as well. To my knowledge Denver hasn’t done anything greatly “weird” other then proclaim the church is false (which isn’t weird, just wrong) and recieved a few revelations that got published. Nothing really odd there compared to any other prophet, especially Joseph Smith.

Do you think that receiving ridiculous revelations that supposedly come from God is weird? Below is the one wherein the Lord commands Mr. Snuffer to change his name to David.

Quote

THE NEW NAME DAVID
Revelation given to Denver Snuffer, Jr, 10 September, 2011.

On the 10 th day of September, 2011 the word of the Lord said to me, You shall no longer be called Denver, but your name shall be called David. I was startled to hear this, and it troubled me. I regarded David as an adulterer and a murderer, who killed Uriah to hide his adultery. In response to Nathan's parable of the rich man who took the poor man's lamb in 2 Samuel, Chapter 12, David condemned himself to die for his sin. If David considered himself worthy to die, then should I not also condemn David? The more I reflected on this, the more troubled I became. I asked God to give to me another name, not the unwanted David.
For a day and a half my distress grew, and I prayed repeatedly to have the name changed. I feared it memorialized and perhaps also foreshadowed failure and rebellion. I did not want to have the Lord view me as either rebellious or a failure. I thought the name was detestable, the name of a bloody man who was unfit to build the Lord's house, whose family was torn apart by infighting. After a day and a half of prayer asking to change the name, the Lord answered in a perfectly mild voice saying, I thought it no great insult to be called the Son of David.
His gentle response cut my heart and made me ashamed. I learned David means: Beloved of God. This made me all the more embarrassed at how meanly I had reacted and spoken to the Lord about His gift to me. Instead of thinking it an unworthy name, I concluded I was unworthy of His gift. I asked Him to forgive me and He frankly did so. I am an ignorant and prideful man.
I expected to keep this private, and after doing so for six years, I have been commanded to make this known.

Sorry, but this strikes me as very weird. Mr. Snuffer comes across as a weirdo (however, I realize weirdness, weirdo is in the eye of the beholder). I don't see Mr. Snuffer as any different from Jim Harmston, Maurice Glendenning, Mauricio Berger et al. They are all frauds. While they are alive they succeed in attracting a few followers, but their movements, such as they are, fall apart the minute they are gone.

A pic of Mr. Snuffer aka David.

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

While a prophet can be quirky the one thing I think they all have, and the Book of Mormon backs this, is a firm mind. You do not have to worry God is going to call the deranged or the unstable. Prophets are called crazy but when you interact with them you do not get a flighty or psychotic vibe like you do with the homeless guy telling you about how God visited him.

I also reject the idea above that God always calls the outlier. Sometimes he does but not always. Daniel and Isaiah were aristocrats. Paul was too. 

[SettingDogStar]

26 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Do you think that receiving ridiculous revelations that supposedly come from God is weird? Below is the one wherein the Lord commands Mr. Snuffer to change his name to David.

Sorry, but this strikes me as very weird. Mr. Snuffer comes across as a weirdo (however, I realize weirdness, weirdo is in the eye of the beholder). I don't see Mr. Snuffer as any different from Jim Harmston, Maurice Glendenning, Mauricio Berger et al. They are all frauds. While they are alive they succeed in attracting a few followers, but their movements, such as they are, fall apart the minute they are gone.

A pic of Mr. Snuffer aka David.

 

Is changing your name to David any weirder then receiving a revelation that says we can have ten virgins and there’s no sin in it? Or staring into a chocolate rock in a hat to translate something? Or how about the multiple name changes in the OT? How about cutting part of your body off (a sensitive part) as a sign you covenant with God?

I’m not saying he’s right, I’m just saying it’s not that bizarre if you look at the other prophets in the scripture.

Edited September 20, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, SettingDogStar said:

Is changing your name to David any weirder then receiving a revelation that says we can have ten virgins and there’s no sin in it? Or staring into a chocolate rock in a hat to translate something? Or how about the multiple name changes in the OT?

I’m not saying he’s right, I’m just saying it’s not that bizarre if you look at the other prophets in the scripture.

It is not proof but he comes across as bizarre, not just his revelations, and far too many of his revelations come from our folklore. It is like someone read Nibley and heard anecdotes in Sunday School about translation errors and decided to “reveal” them.

[SettingDogStar]

Just now, The Nehor said:

It is not proof but he comes across as bizarre, not just his revelations, and far too many of his revelations come from our folklore. It is like someone read Nibley and heard anecdotes in Sunday School about translation errors and decided to “reveal” them.

To each their own. He’s not right, but he doesn’t come off as buzzard or weird to me. All of the revelations or translations he’s produced don’t come off any more odd then anything Joseph Smith attempted. 

[bdouglas]

13 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Is changing your name to David any weirder then receiving a revelation that says we can have ten virgins and there’s no sin in it? Or staring into a chocolate rock in a hat to translate something? Or how about the multiple name changes in the OT?

I’m not saying he’s right, I’m just saying it’s not that bizarre if you look at the other prophets in the scripture.

Well, as I said, I guess weird/weirdness is in the eye of the beholder. And yes, looking into a chocolate rock would be weird——except that what we got from that chocolate rock is the BOM, perhaps the most amazing book in existence in the world today.

And so it is with polygamy also. What were the fruits of polygamy? A generation of church leaders that carried the church through its first one hundred years.

What are Mr. Snuffer's fruits? A revelation (quoted above) that is dripping with narcissism and silliness and is impossible to take seriously, and another revelation (the Gospel of John revelation) that is basically unreadable.

It's same with all of the Fundie Fruitcakes——Jim Harmston, Mauricio Berger, Glendenning, all of them. They don't have anything to show. Mr. Snuffer says, "I see and speak with the Lord regularly." But what does he have to show for this? Really nothing.

Nobody today reads the revelations of Jim Harmston or Maurice Glendenning, and in 50 years, nobody will read the silly revelations of Denver Snuffer aka David.

Edited September 20, 2019 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

To each their own. He’s not right, but he doesn’t come off as buzzard or weird to me. All of the revelations or translations he’s produced don’t come off any more odd then anything Joseph Smith attempted. 

I have to disagree but guessing it is not something we will resolve.

[SettingDogStar]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have to disagree but guessing it is not something we will resolve.

Same. I just think we view Joseph in a different light 200 years later. Imagine a man coming up to you and then speaking in what he says is the voice of the Lord and affirming himself a place in the celestial kingdom or saying that it’s only himself that can give revelations. It’s not unlike some biblical prophets, but I bet you’d reject him immediately. 

Edit: He’s been immortalized as a prophet and his scriptures have been read so many times that it becomes modern and normal for us to hear. Back up 200 years though and it would have been a very odd sight or thing to hear, as it was. The only thing that converted people was the Spirit.

Again, im not saying Denver is right (cause he’s not) but I feel he’s being held to some different standard becuase he’s modern and Joseph has been immortalized to history.

Edited September 20, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[SettingDogStar]

13 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Well, as I said, I guess weird/weirdness is in the eye of the beholder. And yes, looking into a chocolate rock would be weird——except that what we got from that chocolate rock is the BOM, perhaps the most amazing book in existence in the world today.

And so it is with polygamy also. What were the fruits of polygamy? A generation of church leaders that carried the church through its first one hundred years.

What are Mr. Snuffer's fruits? A revelation (quoted above) that is dripping with narcissism and silliness and is impossible to take seriously, and another revelation (the Gospel of John revelation) that is basically unreadable.

It's same with all of the Fundie Fruitcakes——Jim Harmston, Mauricio Berger, Glendenning, all of them. They don't have anything to show. Mr. Snuffer says, "I see and speak with the Lord regularly." But what does he have to show for this? Really nothing.

Nobody today reads the revelations of Jim Harmston or Maurice Glendenning, and in 50 years, nobody will read the silly revelations of Denver Snuffer aka David.

Polygamy is not what carried a generation of church leaders through 100 years, the truth, gospel, and Christ did that and He could have done it just fine without polygamy. But that’s another topic entirely.

Edited September 20, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[bdouglas]

10 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Same. I just think we view Joseph in a different light 200 years later. Imagine a man coming up to you and then speaking in what he says is the voice of the Lord and affirming himself a place in the celestial kingdom or saying that it’s only himself that can give revelations. It’s not unlike some biblical prophets, but I bet you’d reject him immediately. 

I sure would i.e reject him immediately. Unless he had something to show. What did JS have to show? In 1830 he had the BOM, sections 1, 3 10 etc.

And really this is the bottom line. Denver Snuffer has nothing to show. He says, "I have seen and heard things not lawful for man to utter." Wow, you think. Imagine what this man knows! But then you read his revelations and you talk to him ... and there's nothing there, just an ordinary Gospel Hobbyist, not any different from the Gospel Hobbyists you remember in the neighborhood when you were growing up, who were all a bit kooky ... or weird.

Edited September 20, 2019 by bdouglas

[SettingDogStar]

13 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

I sure would i.e reject him immediately. Unless he had something to show. What did JS have to show? In 1830 he had the BOM, sections 1, 3 10 etc.

And really this is the bottom line. Denver Snuffer has nothing to show. He says, "I have seen and heard things not lawful for man to utter." Wow, you think. Imagine what this man knows! But then you read his revelations and you talk to him ... and there's nothing there, just a weirdo.

I feel he has a lot to show, as false as it might be. You might just not know about it. He’s shared a few revelations on the order of the family in heaven, Mother in Heaven (very briefly),  and other things. Plus you don’t have to reveal great and wonderous things to be a prophet. What did Nephi have to show others? One big vision he wrote down, some plates he stole, and teachings on the doctrine of Christ? What does President Nelson have to personally show? Some general conference talks that were powerful? I believe he is God’s chosen leader, but you don’t need something to show.

Edit: by the way I’m not trying to attack you or something. I just feel like there’s some holes in the logic your using. It comes down to the Spirit and personal preference in the end, so it really can’t be fully resolved. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by SettingDogStar