hello, a new member

[Calm]

On 8/22/2019 at 2:35 PM, marineland said:

Why is there no mention of elders going into the compartment of peace
to preach to the faithful saints who have died since the resurrection 
of Christ (like Jesus is said to have done before his resurrection in 
D&C 138:18-19)?

Thanks

If you have a lot of questions, reading the online Gospel Principles manual is a good place to start.  It is about the most organized explanation of our beliefs that we have and is a pretty easy, quick read because it hits basics and tries to avoid the speculation ( some still slips in, but not as much as in the past).  The scriptures listed are active links so you can easily read them as you work through the text.

This is from the section on postmortal world.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

Quote

According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. President Joseph F. Smith saw in a vision that immediately after Jesus Christ was crucified, He visited the righteous in the spirit world. He appointed messengers, gave them power and authority, and commissioned them to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men” (D&C 138:30).

The Church is organized in the spirit world, and priesthood holders continue their responsibilities there (see D&C 138:30). President Wilford Woodruff taught: “The same Priesthood exists on the other side of the veil. … Every Apostle, every Seventy, every Elder, etc., who has died in the faith as soon as he passes to the other side of the veil, enters into the work of the ministry” (Deseret News, Jan. 25, 1882, 818)...

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138).

The work Christ established in the afterlife continues to this day, both in Paradise and in Spirit Prison/Hell.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Calm

[Garden Girl]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

If you have a lot of questions, reading the online Gospel Principles manual is a good place to start.  It is about the most organized explanation of our beliefs that we have and is a pretty easy, quick read because it hits basics and tries to avoid the speculation ( some still slips in, but not as much as in the past).  The scriptures listed are active links so you can easily read them as you work through the text.

This is from the section on postmortal world.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

The work Christ established in the afterlife continues to this day, both in Paradise and in Spirit Prison/Hell.

 

Calm's suggestion of the Gospel Principles Manual, available on-line, is great... it's straightforward and has an index so you can easily find the topics to answer your questions... you can then ask a specific question vs so many all at once.

GG

Edited August 24, 2019 by Garden Girl

[marineland]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

The work Christ established in the afterlife continues to this day, both in Paradise and in Spirit Prison/Hell.

Do you have a scriptural reference for the 'paradise' part?

Thanks. I'll check Gospel Principles.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

Do you have a scriptural reference for the 'paradise' part?

Thanks. I'll check Gospel Principles.

Well, inasmuch as DC 138 has been canonized as scripture, it's its own reference.  Though I think you're looking for something else that corroborates it.

I'm pretty sure there is no other literal corroboration in the Bible. But the situation just logically requires that those in paradise receive teachers and be taught, in the same way that those in what we call spirit prison receive teachers and are taught. Why would they not? 

Luke 23:43 : And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The repentant malefactor was apparently going to paradise, i.e. the compartment where non-wicked people go.  He had clearly not been taught the gospel, and clearly needed to be taught. Was he going to be denied instruction because he was not going to spirit prison?  Of course not.  And because God is not a respecter of persons (meaning that he doesn't make requirements that must be fulfilled by some people, that doesn't have to be fulfilled by others), the same requirements for entry into God's kingdom is baptism by water and by the spirit.  Which pre-requires being taught, and the acceptance of what is being taught.

 

[marineland]

17 hours ago, Stargazer said:

But the situation just logically requires that those in paradise receive teachers and be taught, in the same way that those in what we call spirit prison receive teachers and are taught. Why would they not?

I was just referring to what verse 57 said.

I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they 
depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the 
gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only 
Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the 
bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

I didn't see an equivalent verse for elders going into the 'paradise' part.

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, marineland said:

I was just referring to what verse 57 said.

I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they 
depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the 
gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only 
Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the 
bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

I didn't see an equivalent verse for elders going into the 'paradise' part.

You're right, there doesn't seem to be one.  But if you read the relevant verse closely, you see that it does include those in 'paradise', though not by name:

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

The mission to those in spirit prison is particularly emphasized, simply because it says the Savior didn't go among them, but sent missionaries to them.  But in the end, the gospel was preached to all. 

[Garden Girl]

On 8/25/2019 at 1:25 PM, Stargazer said:

You're right, there doesn't seem to be one.  But if you read the relevant verse closely, you see that it does include those in 'paradise', though not by name:

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

The mission to those in spirit prison is particularly emphasized, simply because it says the Savior didn't go among them, but sent missionaries to them.  But in the end, the gospel was preached to all. 

 

On 8/25/2019 at 6:57 AM, marineland said:

I was just referring to what verse 57 said.

I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they 
depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the 
gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only 
Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the 
bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

I didn't see an equivalent verse for elders going into the 'paradise' part.

I must be misunderstanding what you are seeking because I believe the scriptures do indicate as Stargazer says, that all the dead shall be taught... for instance:

John 5:25,  and then in 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice...

1 Peter 3:18-19 "...By which he went and preached unto the spirits in prison ...

and 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

There does not seem to be a differentiation of the spirits...

GG

 

[marineland]

On 8/25/2019 at 4:25 PM, Stargazer said:

You're right, there doesn't seem to be one.  But if you read the relevant verse closely, you see that it does include those in 'paradise', though not by name:

I used a magnifying glass and couldn't see any inclusion  :-)

[marineland]

On 8/27/2019 at 12:12 AM, Garden Girl said:

John 5:25,  and then in 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice...

Your statement is not quite in the correct context. This voice is the voice of Jesus, not
the voice of LDS going into paradise like D&C 138 says they are going into the darkness
part.

[Garden Girl]

57 minutes ago, marineland said:

Your statement is not quite in the correct context. This voice is the voice of Jesus, not
the voice of LDS going into paradise like D&C 138 says they are going into the darkness
part.

You misunderstand me... I was referring to this as the voice of Jesus as far as that scripture... and then there is D&C 88:104 "And this shall be the sound of his (angel's) trump, saying to all people, both in heaven and in earth, and that are under the earth--for every ear shall hear it, and every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess , while they hear the sound of the trump, saying: Fear God, and give glory to him that sitteth upon the throne, forever and forever; for the hour of his judgment is come..  i.e., everyone whoever lived on earth will have the opportunity to hear/know Christ before final judgment.  

GG

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, marineland said:

I used a magnifying glass and couldn't see any inclusion  :-)

Nice try, and clever turn of phrase, too.

I realize that you've already deflected the scripture that @Garden Girl brought up because it was something Jesus said, whereas Joseph F. Smith was reporting what he saw in vision, and not the Savior's direct words, but do you not understand that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"? (2 Tim 3:16) If one must be as literal as you're seeming to want to take the language, then the verse that GG cited...

John 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

...excludes all those who in some way or another didn't manage to get put into a grave. Those who died at sea, and were dumped into the water, those who were devoured by beasts, and everyone who was cremated and whose ashes were scattered at some symbolic location.  Those people are excluded from both places, since obviously they're not in a grave.  Or does it?

We're talking about the use of language, here, not the context of who said what.  You seem to want to demand that every jot and tittle be specified in DC 138, but are you willing to give John 5 a "jot and tittle" treatment as well?

We also run afoul of the problem of literalness with respect to other scriptures as well.  John 3:5 says:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Wonderful, except for one small problem.  The literal interpretation of this is that all those who didn't manage to get baptized in this life are going to hell (in good Catholic/Protestant understanding), regardless of whether they so much as even heard of being baptized or even heard of Jesus Christ.  Billions of people consigned to hell because God put them when and where there was no option to hear and believe, let alone act.  It kind of makes the love of God ring rather hollow, doesn't it?  The beautiful scripture I see posted by roadsides everywhere (John 3:16)...

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Means that Jesus went through that horrible experience in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross for only a tiny fraction of mankind, namely the ones who happened to be lucky enough to hear enough about Jesus Christ in order to believe in him.  The rest of God's children, those multiple billions are toast.  Literally, if hell is understood according to the standard model.  How much is God's love for the world worth to them now?

We do have a little hope for at least some of them, in 1 Peter 3:18-20...

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
"19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

But no, our hopes are raised and dashed before breakfast, because literally, only those who died in Noah's flood got to hear Jesus when he went to preach in spirit prison. The rest of them, those who died before and after the Flood, get bupkis.

And even those killed in Noah's Flood who got to hear Jesus preach are out of luck, because they're dead, and so dead that their bodies never got into a grave, and according to the literal reading of John 5:28-29, they're still excluded, and according to a literal reading of John 3:5 they can't be baptized anyway, so why was Jesus bothering to preach to them if they couldn't be baptized and for that reason they're excluded from the kingdom of God?

But wait, what about 1 Cor 15:29?  

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Oh, nevermind. It doesn't mean what it appears to mean, after all.  Shawn Brasseaux (whoever he is) says: "This is probably the most mysterious verse in all of the Pauline epistles—yea, in all the Bible. I doubt there is a person on earth who could fully explain it."  He then goes on to be very definite about baptism for the dead: "...these doctrines are flat-out heresies and completely false" [emphasis in the original].  Yet Shawn, who doubts there's a person on the earth who could fully explain it then goes on to fully explain it!  How exciting!  He doubts his own existence, apparently.  Oh, never mind, it doesn't mean that baptism for the dead is actually baptism for the dead, Paul here is using a heretical practice and belief to teach the validity of the Resurrection!  I'm glad we got that cleared up.

So, you see, if you insist upon literalness, 90+% of God's children go to hell for no better reason than God put them where they had no chance to choose otherwise, and even if they did manage to be among that small slice of humanity who died in the Flood, and got to hear Jesus preach, they're still going to hell because they're never got into a grave and they can't be baptized anyway.

As I said, nice turn of phrase, "...used a magnifying glass...", but this is how one misses the forest for the trees.  

.

[Stargazer]

On 8/25/2019 at 9:25 PM, Stargazer said:

You're right, there doesn't seem to be one.  But if you read the relevant verse closely, you see that it does include those in 'paradise', though not by name:

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

The mission to those in spirit prison is particularly emphasized, simply because it says the Savior didn't go among them, but sent missionaries to them.  But in the end, the gospel was preached to all. 

 

9 hours ago, marineland said:

I used a magnifying glass and couldn't see any inclusion  :-)

And besides all that I wrote above, Jesus doesn't need to SEND any elders to the 'paradise' part, because that is where they were in the first place, after they died.  Do you understand that?  You can't send people to where they already are.  It seems obvious to me, but perhaps in a magnifying glass things look different