Jim Bennett: Standing My Ground

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You all probably won't convert me ...

That's not something we even believe possible.

Quote

... but you are certainly helping me be a better man and a better Mennonite. 

I shared some lessons with a woman my first summer as a missionary. We especially worked with her to help her stop smoking. She'd picked up the habit when she was 13 and was then in her 30s. No previous attempt to stop had worked. But she stopped with our assistance (and God's!), and she stayed free of tobacco thereafter. She never joined the Church (and instead became one of Jehovah's Witnesses), but for several years thereafter she would post me cards thanking me for helping her stop smoking. I was just glad to have been of some service.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Yes I do my friend - when used to convert someone who already holds the atonement in his heart, along side of the Holy Spirit, and the Prince of Peace as his savior. 

Do you think the Jews at the time of Christ felt the same way?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

The tragedy doesn't come from trying to "score points." It comes in trying to "score converts" - on both sides.

My Methodist uncle (RIP) told me once many moons ago, that the Mormons are "sheep stealers," and he wasn't happy about it.

[Navidad]

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

My Methodist uncle (RIP) told me once many moons ago, that the Mormons are "sheep stealers," and he wasn't happy about it.

I love how you describe your uncles (or uncle and grandpa - I forget which) and appreciate their commitment to their faith. It would have been great to have grown up with their faith, humor, and wisdom. I didn't have any of that. If it helps any, like them, I also had to demonstrate proficiency in Greek and Hebrew prior to being ordained! Sometimes I feel like My LDS Christian friends aren't as interested in stealing me out of the sheepfold as they are in shearing me of my wool - my own personal testimony of Christ and the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit in my life - diminishing that to an acknowledgement that I might on some random fortunate occasion, feel the Spirit, but never be indwelt by the fullness of the Spirit. In some ways that is more effective in diminishing me.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Oi vey!

Fine, maybe he didn't anticipate a debate but he might have figured that out by hour 3 or 4, 5,6,7,8,9,10,11, or 12. He's a smart guy. You're making Jim out to be a victim here. I don't think he's a victim because I don't feel he was victimized. He did a good job. He held his own. It didn't appear he was suckered into anything and I don't think he lost anything. Do you?

I am not keeping my own advice and responding to this before I am up to date because there appears to be confusion and I am sure I have contributed to it.

There are two separate situations I am referring to.

The first is the podcast sessions.  I am slowly dipping into them, don't know how deep I will go or if I will feel the need to respond at all.  That appears to have been a relatively congenial experience for Bennett.  I don't see him as victimized by that experience, certainly he could have stopped participating at any time.  However, given his blog, he appears to believe he has been misrepresented in the postpodcast descriptions as demonstrated by his various comments.  And I am going to take his analysis of whether the descriptions match what he intended rather than anyone else's.  I would do the same for Reel.  A person knows what they think the best, imo....that is why I prefer to allow people to speak for themselves.  That Bennett felt the need to make a response is evidence he sees it as a misrepresentation.

The second which I have been more focused on is the post podcast narrative that Reel has been promoting, both in his own words and his choosing to post and therefore focus on another's representation.  This post podcast narrative appears to me to be significantly different in tone than what I have listened to and read as reported of the podcasts.  This representation is apparently what highly disturbed Bennett according to his first blog and part of his second one due to being combative in tone and choice of words rather than a simple conversation of two individuals sharing their POV and how they might be seen by others.  He didn't go into the podcast thinking he needed to score points and yet, this is how he is now being judged by Reel and others.  I don't particularly think that is fair...basically tell him to prepare for one type of conversation and then flip it and use what he prepared as descriptive as if he was defending when that was not his intention.  He may have chosen to present his beliefs and ideas in a dramatically different way if he had looked on the interaction as a debate.

There is really no need to refer back to the podcasts in the second case unless they somewhere contain Bennett agreeing to having a competive debate style interaction.  Instead I am simply comparing his expressed expectations and disappointment at how it is being portrayed/used by Reel and how he sees that as contrary to what was agreed upon. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't understand why people do these sorts of debates. First off they almost always depend upon memory of facts or the like rather than being able to look things up to better ensure correctness. Second the sophistry model of how to deal with such debates rarely leads to good faith discussions particularly when one side (or both) are angry. There's standard methods to be unfair and people don't even need to be conscious of doing it since they see these techniques so often in the media. Also, people rarely grapple with the foundational issues which are where the disagreements almost always really are arising out of.  

C'mon, Clark.  People generally love a good lynching.  As H. Rap Brown used to say, "violence is as American as apple pie."

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

C'mon, Clark.  People generally love a good lynching.  As H. Rap Brown used to say, "violence is as American as apple pie."

And apparently will create a lynching even in the case it doesn't exist (Bennett was not defending, but his words are being presented as if that was his intent).

[Calm]

2 hours ago, churchistrue said:

angst, vitriol, offended, attacking, afraid? Nah. I'll always consider Bill a friend. I just didn't like how that played out with the interview being congenial but then the aftermath like a sucker punch. 

This...thank you for expressing so succinctly my issue.

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, churchistrue said:

angst, vitriol, offended, attacking, afraid? Nah.

Certainly by some, but I agree not by all here.

2 hours ago, churchistrue said:

I'll always consider Bill a friend. I just didn't like how that played out with the interview being congenial but then the aftermath like a sucker punch. 

I think that Jim handled it just fine on his own without all the drama about it here.  His blog post (which is now posted at FairMormon) explains it well, with great class and definitely clarifies what he meant regarding some of the concessions and comments he made during the interview/podcasts.  

There's no doubt that just starting a thread about Bill Reel (or anything related to him) causes some to get a bit "crazy" and overreact (IMO).  But I can understand that reaction if there's personal reasons involved.  I'm wondering if Reel has affected some family members or friends of those posting here?   If so, I understand that would be difficult.

Edited February 26, 2019 by ALarson

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

The tragedy doesn't come from trying to "score points." It comes in trying to "score converts" - on both sides.

Bennett did not intend to score converts, imo.  He specifically said he did not want to debate.  He says he wants to support those who are experiencing shattered testimonies, give them in my interpretation breathing space to see if they can---if they so desire to---piece together their testimony, or in other words compassionately strengthen those that are feeling weak, lost, and alone.

This is how he expressed his intent:

Quote

"I readily admit that my reply is unlikely to persuade Jeremy Runnells to reclaim his faith, although I’d be delighted if that were the (unlikely) result. Nor did I write it for any who have already made up their minds that faith in LDS truth claims is incompatible with intellectual honesty.

Instead, I wrote it for those believers who read the CES Letter and feel like chumps. They still want to believe, but they think they can’t do that because there’s no other way to look at these issues than the way Jeremy Runnells has presented. I wanted to provide an example of a believer who has honestly and frankly confronted all of these issues head on with logic, intelligence, and solid information and still come out with a testimony on the other side. Hopefully, someone who finds their testimony shattered by the CES letter can look at me and think, “well, if that Bennett bozo can read this and keep his faith, maybe I can, too.”

That was also my purpose in having these conversations. I doubt I captured any ground held by any contributors to the exMormon SubReddit, but that was not what I was trying to do. My goal was not to prove the Church true or call fire down from heaven. It was to give courage to any who find themselves confronted with troubling issues and assume that it is no longer possible to believe and still maintain intellectual honesty. I don’t know how many people in that situation are listeners to Bill Reel’s podcast, but if there is a single one who heard me and realized that they don’t have to abandon their faith when confronted by hard questions, then I think my time spent on this project will have been worth it.

http://canonizer.com/blog/ces-reply-conversations-with-bill-reel/

Edited February 26, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I love how you describe your uncles (or uncle and grandpa - I forget which) and appreciate their commitment to their faith. It would have been great to have grown up with their faith, humor, and wisdom. I didn't have any of that. If it helps any, like them, I also had to demonstrate proficiency in Greek and Hebrew prior to being ordained! Sometimes I feel like My LDS Christian friends aren't as interested in stealing me out of the sheepfold as they are in shearing me of my wool - my own personal testimony of Christ and the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit in my life - diminishing that to an acknowledgement that I might on some random fortunate occasion, feel the Spirit, but never be indwelt by the fullness of the Spirit. In some ways that is more effective in diminishing me.  

Sounds to me as though your Mormon friends aren't very "Christian" or truly Mormon.  My circle of Mormon friends are scholars who have spent their lives associated with great non-Mormon scholars, whom they do not see as targets for conversion.  Instead, they find such friendships as opportunities to learn profound truths from one another.  Otherwise, such friendships would not continue or be at all productive.  They include many Jewish scholars and rabbis, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic scholars.  We get along so well because we have mutual respect and admiration.

LDS D&C 49:8 says that God has reserved unto himself "holy men that ye know not of."  Moreover, Pres Joseph Fielding Smith said:

Quote

I am in full accord with the idea that has been expressed that the Lord is using many agencies; his work is not confined to the Latter-day Saints, for he has called many to his service outside of the Church and has endowed them with power, has inspired them to do his work. … However, my brethren and sisters, do not let us lose sight of the fact that we are a power in the earth for good and for the spread of the truth and the establishment of peace among all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples.    Conference Report, Oct 1919, pages 89-90,

Apostle Orson F Whitney concurred:

Quote

[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves.

 

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sounds to me as though your Mormon friends aren't very "Christian" or truly Mormon.  My circle of Mormon friends are scholars who have spent their lives associated with great non-Mormon scholars, whom they do not see as targets for conversion.  Instead, they find such friendships as opportunities to learn profound truths from one another.  Otherwise, such friendships would not continue or be at all productive.  They include many Jewish scholars and rabbis, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic scholars.  We get along so well because we have mutual respect and admiration.

LDS D&C 49:8 says that God has reserved unto himself "holy men that ye know not of."  Moreover, Pres Joseph Fielding Smith said:

Apostle Orson F Whitney concurred:

 

Those are great quotes. Thanks so much for sharing them. They seem at odds with other portrayals of Non-LDS Christians. I appreciate your quotes. I have read other things by Orson Whitney and has his volumes of Utah history. Good stuff!

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

as appears to have happened from Tacenda...points to her for doing what Reel should have automatically included

Not intended for this thread, but just to resolve this above post...I have listened to the time stamps provided by Tacenda and posted my response to them in the other thread that includes most of the claims.

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Do you think the Jews at the time of Christ felt the same way?

I am not absolutely certain what you mean since I talked about both sides today trying to convert each other. I have thought about it for several hours and can see the Jews and the Jewish reaction in the LDS-Christians reaction to non-LDS Christians who deny both that the LDS-Christian is the only and true way, and that somehow the LDS Covenants with God are special and unique. On the other hand, I can see the reaction of the Jews in the non-LDS Christians to the upstart new-fangled faith that claims to be the new, the only, and the true path and the resistance that has created. So yes, I think both sides might feel like the Jews at the time of Christ felt.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

So yes, I think both sides might feel like the Jews at the time of Christ felt.  

Thanks for your reply. Personally, I think it would be weird if my friends didn't want to 'convert' me by sharing with me what they find has blessed their lives. I take occasions of proselyting as evidence of genuine love unless there is clear evidence that they are something else. I'm very close with a number of men in one of our local Muslim communities. They call me 'brother', we greet each other with warm hugs, they invite me to events at their mosque and in public, and so forth. I know they think, deeply, that I should join them in their faith. I wish they would join me in mine. In both cases, this is just an expression of sincere love.

I understand that your faith group does not proselyte and so you can't relate, but you must have had an analogous experience, no? Have you ever eaten the most delicious thing ever and immediately thought, 'My family and friends all need to try this!'?

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks for your reply. Personally, I think it would be weird if my friends didn't want to 'convert' me by sharing with me what they find has blessed their lives. I take occasions of proselyting as evidence of genuine love unless there is clear evidence that they are something else. I'm very close with a number of men in one of our local Muslim communities. They call me 'brother', we greet each other with warm hugs, they invite me to events at their mosque and in public, and so forth. I know they think, deeply, that I should join them in their faith. I wish they would join me in mine. In both cases, this is just an expression of sincere love.

I understand that your faith group does not proselyte and so you can't relate, but you must have had an analogous experience, no? Have you ever eaten the most delicious thing ever and immediately thought, 'My family and friends all need to try this!'?

Thanks for the reply. If I know that your faith has blessed your life in the same way that mine has blessed me. If I know that we share the core common belief in faith in the atonement of Christ, then no I don't think it is evidence of genuine love that I continue to try and convince you that my version of the rest of my belief system is better, or more pleasing to God. What you describe with your Muslim friends is the warmth and respect of friends; not of a shared belief in the atonement of Christ. I believe in that as do you. One would logically think therefore, that we should be able to have even a tighter bond because of that shared faith. Yet it seems that we (speaking generically) don't because of stereotypes, history, ethnocentrism, some significant doctrinal differences, and a complete failure to understand the other. In fact where you (speaking generically) might not make a Muslim friend "the other" for a host of reasons, you (speaking generically) have little issue with generalizing about evangelicals and making them "the other." There is a special antipathy between us (speaking generically) that comes out loud and clear on this forum, as it would in reverse on an anti-Mormon forum.  We know what that does sociologically to the members of the in-group and to the identified out-group.

I once on this thread apparently made the mistake of asking why we fight, when on the essentials we are already in agreement; it is on the non-essentials that we disagree. This, I have always thought was a core essential to inter-faith dialogue among believers in Christ. It certainly is with Methodists and Baptists for instance. No, I was told by several of you (used generically), no . . . LDS folks don't have any non-essentials. All beliefs held by the Saints are essential either to salvation or exaltation. Well, that certainly shut down my thinking that our essentials bind us together while our non-essentials, things like ecclesiology, worship style, eschatology, etc. are simply fascinating differences for us to discuss, not fight over. I guess I was wrong.

My favorite meal is hot dogs or sausage, mashed potatoes, and sauerkraut. You tell me you don't like sauerkraut. I don't keep trying to convince you it is a delicacy. I don't want to make you think you are less-than because you prefer rice. Oh, and I have immersed myself in Mormon history, and have been on this forum for 15 months, just about the same time I have been immersed in a Mormon ward. So I have tried to learn from the source. I have tasted your delicious offerings. I like much of what I have tasted; but the Holy Spirit has shown me that I am engaged with Mormonism for some other reason than to convert. Right now I see through the glass darkly as to why we are where we are. I feel a kinship with the Saints that some seem to feel with me, others don't because their doctrine doesn't allow it, and still others probably don't because at times I have been a jerk. yet, don't we have a special bond as joint heirs of the grace of Jesus Christ, even if I like hot dogs, mashed potatoes, and sauerkraut and you don't? Please, all of you "every doctrine is essential folks" don't jump on me or my silly illustration. After all Hamba is the one who brought up the food! 😉

[Rivers]

On 2/25/2019 at 12:24 PM, churchistrue said:

That's what I was disappointed by. Bill using words like "eviscerated" to describe the interview.

Sounds like the title of a YouTube clip.

 Bill Reel EVISCERATES Jim Bennett!

I finished the first episode and I feel Bennett gives very good responses to all the questions. And considering that Bennett has the more difficult job, I find him more impressive than Bill.  I always enjoy hearing faithful members tackle all the difficult issues.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Rivers