Left Hand

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Where did I state that?

I can only relate what me feelings would be and what I would do (which is what I posted).

 

“Are you aware of any other interactions they might have had that weren’t recorded?”

If you listen to the recording, he starts right out with why he came in to speak to them and then immediately closes after he discusses this specific topic.  

But either way, he was very clear about his belief on this.

Being sad usually is the result of something unpleasant. Is harm not implied if we feel it necessary to take our child aside for consolation?  If a child were offended, that would be appropriate. We have only this snapshot of the event with which to form our judgement. What happened before and after? How did the youth react? We don’t know.

[JulieM]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Being sad usually is the result of something unpleasant. Is harm not implied if we feel it necessary to take our child aside for consolation?  If a child were offended, that would be appropriate. We have only this snapshot of the event with which to form our judgement. What happened before and after? How did the youth react? We don’t know.

As a parent I would just want to clarify and make clear to my son that what was expressed specifically about the exactness necessary for partaking the sacrament with the right hand, was President Oak’s opinion and feelings.  It’s not wrong to use your left hand at times.

I would not let the wrong impression or teaching be left without discussing it and making sure he knew what the actual instructions and teachings are on that.

You are certainly reading a lot into this and adding to what I stated. You are over complicating it in my opinion!  You state that you know our leaders aren’t infallible but then go into contortions when one makes a mistake rather than just admit what he taught was not correct.

Or do you believe it’s church doctrine to be as exact with partaking the sacrament with the right hand as we are with the sacrament prayer?  Do you believe members should have to take it again if the leader on the stand sees them use their left hand?  Because that’s the comparison with what is done with the prayer.

Edited February 14, 2019 by JulieM

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

Which was good and no one disagrees with that.  However, he also taught them something that wasn’t correct.  One does not have to partake of the sacrament only with their right hand with the equal exactness that the sacrament prayer has to be said.

You keep leaving that part out.   He left them believing something that is not true.  It’s totally acceptable to use your left hand to partake of the sacrament even if there is symbolism attached to using your right hand to perform ordinances.

Hopefully, most of those young men discussed this with their parents afterwards and this was clarified.  

As a parent I would just want to clarify and make clear to my son that what was expressed specifically about the exactness necessary for partaking the sacrament with the right hand, was President Oak’s opinion and feelings.  It’s not wrong to use your left hand at times.

I would not let the wrong impression or teaching be left without discussing it and making sure he knew what the actual instructions and teachings are on that.

 

Rather than leaving it out, I posted several other GA statements that treat the issue. I have repeatedly said we are free to do as we wish, but I have also said we might consider finding out for ourselves through contemplation and prayer what is right. Did you read those posts? 

Another thing to consider is that he said he was moved by the Spirit to give them that instruction and that he felt it was his apostolic duty to teach them. I see no reason to doubt his word.

Do you think it was appropriate to secretly record him and make the recording public? What would justify that?

Edited February 14, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Steve-o]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I thought I made that clear with the words, “Certainly not.” I said there are different ways to disagree and gave a hypothetical example of a bad and good way using Sister Gui and myself to illustrate. If I were in an intimate meeting with an apostle and he said something I found fault, I would think it amiss to secretly record his words and post them on the internet. I can think of no reason to do that other than to put him to shame. That is not the Savior’s way, IMO  

 

I am not sure I understand you. Deciding to record someone after they've said something wrong wouldn't do much good. It would be too late. Is it not more likely that someone in the audience decided to record it from the beginning because they were excited to listen to an apostle and wanted to remember everything that was said? And is it unreasonable to think that someone would record and share the recording because they liked it? Does there have to be a nefarious intention of the recorder or the person who released it? Do we even know if the person who recorded is also the person who released the recording?

[ALarson]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I thought I made that clear with the words, “Certainly not.” I said there are different ways to disagree and gave a hypothetical example of a bad and good way using Sister Gui and myself to illustrate. If I were in an intimate meeting with an apostle and he said something I found fault, I would think it amiss to secretly record his words and post them on the internet. I can think of no reason to do that other than to put him to shame. That is not the Savior’s way, IMO  

We don't know if the person who recorded him, posted it on the internet.  I would bet that one of the kids pushed their record button on their phone because they were so excited that an Apostle was actually coming into their deacon's quorum to talk to them and they wanted to record his words so they could share it later with their parents or family (or friends).  You have no idea that there was something sinister behind the recording.  

What we do know is that someone he shared it with, either posted it or shared it with someone who did.  

We also now know what was taught by Pres. Oaks and that is what we are discussing.

ETA:

Ha...just saw your post above, Steve-O!  Great minds and all that  

Edited February 14, 2019 by ALarson

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I thought I made that clear with the words, “absolutely  not.” I said there are different ways to disagree and gave a hypothetical example of a bad and good way using Sister Gui and myself to illustrate. If I were in an intimate meeting with an apostle and he said something with which I found fault, I would think it amiss to secretly record his words and post them on the internet. I can think of no reason to do that other than to put him to shame. That is not the Savior’s way, IMO  

 

Your "fruit of the poisoned tree" answer was not at all clear then.  Could you clarify what you meant by saying it?

 

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Rather than leaving it out, I posted several other GA statements that treat the issue. I have repeatedly said we are free to do as we wish, but I have also said we might consider finding out for ourselves through contemplation and prayer what is right. Did you read those posts? 

Another thing to consider is that he said he was moved by the Spirit to give them that instruction and that he felt it was his apostolic duty to teach them. I see no reason to doubt his word.

But what he taught is not correct.  Why aren't you able to see that?  One can personally believe they should use their right hand to partake of the sacrament, but it is not a church teaching that it is wrong to use your left hand and there is not a commandment or doctrine which states it has to be done with the same exactness as the sacrament prayer.  That is what he taught those boys though.

You can post all kinds of statements, but none of them state that (other than the recording we have of Pres. Oaks stating precisely that).  Yes, there is symbolism behind the use of the right hand when performing ordinances.....but it is not wrong to use your left hand when partaking of the sacrament (not yet anyway....Pres. Oaks can change that when he's the Prophet  ).

Edited February 14, 2019 by ALarson

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think the statement from the Church's newsroom, which I quoted above, is a more authoritative option.

Certainly. We will see if this issue gets that kind of notice. In the meantime, we have the opportunity to study it out in our minds and ask the Lord for guidance for what we should do.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I admire Brother Millet, but is he quoting the scriptures or the Handbook? Or is he speaking as a man?

I can’t answer that definitively. It strikes me as commentary, but it does make sense to me when I consider that ongoing revelation means that some instruction does change in some respects to befit changing times and conditions. 

That said, the fact that President Oaks, a knowledgeable, competent, experienced and authoritative Church leader, is emphasizing this instruction about use of the right hand, instruction that I received in my childhood, tells me that it has not been rescinded. I think it is out of line to call it “false doctrine” just because one hasn’t heard it in a while. 

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You are certainly reading a lot into this and adding to what I stated. You are over complicating it in my opinion!  You state that you know our leaders aren’t infallible but then go into contortions when one makes a mistake rather than just admit what he taught was not correct.

Or do you believe it’s church doctrine to be as exact with partaking the sacrament with the right hand as we are with the sacrament prayer?  Do you believe members should have to take it again if the leader on the stand sees them use their left hand?  Because that’s the comparison with what is gone with the prayer.

I would like to hear Bernard's answer to those questions....Bernard?

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t answer that definitively. It strikes me as commentary, but it does make sense to me when I consider that ongoing revelation means that some instruction does change in some respects to befit changing times and conditions. 

That said, the fact that President Oaks, a knowledgeable, competent, experienced and authoritative Church leader, is emphasizing this instruction about use of the right hand, instruction that I received in my childhood, tells me that it has not been rescinded. I think it is out of line to call it “false doctrine” just because one hasn’t heard it in a while. 

It's never been taught that it's to be done with the same exactness as applies to the sacrament prayer, has it?  That it would need to be retaken if the members used their left hand (as is the exactness required with the prayer)? 

If so, can you supply the source and a quote?  I am sincerely interested to see what was taught back then.

Edited February 14, 2019 by ALarson

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t answer that definitively. It strikes me as commentary, but it does make sense to me when I consider that ongoing revelation means that some instruction does change in some respects to befit changing times and conditions. 

That said, the fact that President Oaks, a knowledgeable, competent, experienced and authoritative Church leader, is emphasizing this instruction about use of the right hand, instruction that I received in my childhood, tells me that it has not been rescinded. I think it is out of line to call it “false doctrine” just because one hasn’t heard it in a while. 

What if one hasn't heard it at all?  How is someone supposed to know that it's doctrine under that circumstance?

Edited February 14, 2019 by bluebell

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

It seems though, that you have not figured it out for yourself. You’re defending how right Elder Oaks is without personal experience on the specific matter at hand (pun intended).

How has taking the sacrament with your right hand improved your experience over times you have taken it with your left?

That would be between me and the Lord. You don’t figure into that equation.

Perhaps we all can contemplate what we are doing and why we do it the way we do this Sunday. We could include this that I quoted earlier from then Elder Nelson in our silence...

Quote

Partaking of the sacrament is a sacred mental process, and as such it becomes a very personal one for me. I think of the covenants being made between me and Deity as the prayers are pronounced. I think of God offering his Only Begotten Son. I think of the atoning sacrifice of my Savior, Jesus Christ. The sacrament was instituted by him. For all mankind, even me, he offered his flesh and blood and designated the bread and the water as symbolic emblems. Because I have a right hand, I offer it in partaking of the sacrament as an oath, that I will always remember his atoning sacrifice, take his name upon me and remember him, and keep the commandments of God

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I would like to hear Bernard's answer to those questions....Bernard?

Those were added (probably after he responded and he might not have seen them).

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But what he taught is not correct.  Why aren't you able to see that?  One can personally believe they should use their right hand to partake of the sacrament, but it is not a church teaching that it is wrong to use your left hand and there is not a commandment or doctrine which states it has to be done with the same exactness as the sacrament prayer.  That is what he taught those boys though.

You can post all kinds of statements, but none of them state that (other than the recording we have of Pres. Oaks stating precisely that).  Yes, there is symbolism behind the use of the right hand when performing ordinances.....but it is not wrong to use your left hand when partaking of the sacrament (not yet anyway....Pres. Oaks can change that when he's the Prophet  ).

If I’m faced with a First Presidency member saying one thing about Church teaching and you declaring that it is not correct or is “false doctrine,” I’m going with what the First Presidency member says. Not to hurt your feelings, but that’s how it is; to me, it’s a matter of trust. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It's never been taught that it's to be done with the same exactness as applies to the sacrament prayer, has it?  That it would need to be retaken if the members used their left hand (as is the exactness required with the prayer)? 

If so, can you supply the source and a quote?  I am sincerely interested to see what was taught back then.

All I can tell you is what I was taught as a child. At age 8 and earlier, I wasn’t into double-checking things against handbooks and manuals, and, of course, we didn’t have LDS.org back then. 

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If I’m faced with a First Presidency member saying one thing about Church teaching and you declaring that it is not correct or is “false doctrine,” I’m going with what the First Presidency member says. Not to hurt your feelings, but that’s how it is; to me, it’s a matter of trust. 

And when they don't state or teach the same thing (which is the case here)?  What then?

(I'll assume you have no quotes teaching what President Oak's taught these deacons, correct?)

Edited February 14, 2019 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What if one hasn't heard it at all?  How is someone supposed to know that it's doctrine under that circumstance?

In that instance, I suppose you consider the source. To me, President Oaks is eminently trustworthy. 

[SouthernMo]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That would be between me and the Lord. You don’t figure into that equation.

Perhaps we all can contemplate what we are doing and why we do it the way we do this Sunday. We could include this that I quoted earlier from then Elder Nelson in our silence...

 

It seems that your position that you are sharing is based on quotes by leaders who you believe speak with authority.

Beyond that, you have offered me no reasoning for your position, nor personal experience.

I get that. For some, just being obedient is a place to start. I’ve tried to be obedient to this principle/rule/doctrine/teaching/symbol, and have found it makes no difference in my worship.

So far, no one in this thread has offered me anything to give me reason to try again to focus on using my right hand to take the sacrament.

I’m willing to keep listening, trying to find a reason to take this teaching from Elder Oaks to heart. But, at some point, when the only help people who agree with his teachings have to offer is “because he said so”, I start to have to think that his teachings are not sound or helpful.

I remain open to ideas - if you have any.

[bluebell]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

In that instance, I suppose you consider the source. To me, President Oaks is eminently trustworthy. 

I agree.  I love Pres. Oaks, he's one of my favorites.  That doesn't mean everything he teaches is without error of course.  But he wasn't speaking to me.  He wasn't speaking to anyone but that group of boys.  And according to Bernard, it's not even right that we should know what he told them.

This source was not meant for the church as a whole.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And when they don't state the same thing (which is the case here)?  What then?

(I'll assume you have no quotes teaching what President Oak's taught these deacons, correct?)

I’ve already told you, LDS.org didn’t exist when I was a child. I can tell you what the conventional wisdom was back then, though, and thus why comparable current instruction from a member of the First Presidency rings true to me vs naysaying from a frequent faultfinder. 

[JulieM]

20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t answer that definitively. It strikes me as commentary, but it does make sense to me when I consider that ongoing revelation means that some instruction does change in some respects to befit changing times and conditions. 

That said, the fact that President Oaks, a knowledgeable, competent, experienced and authoritative Church leader, is emphasizing this instruction about use of the right hand, instruction that I received in my childhood, tells me that it has not been rescinded. I think it is out of line to call it “false doctrine” just because one hasn’t heard it in a while. 

“Heard it In a while”?

As far as I know, what President Oaks taught has not ever been taught before, has it? (The part about the exactness to use the right hand).

Do you a source if you believe it has?

Edited February 14, 2019 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  I love Pres. Oaks, he's one of my favorites.  That doesn't mean everything he teaches is without error of course.  But he wasn't speaking to me.  He wasn't speaking to anyone but that group of boys.  And according to Bernard, it's not even right that we should know what he told them.

This source was not meant for the church as a whole.

But it’s enough to give me pause. Has President Oaks been consistently teaching the same thing in other settings? Perhaps time will tell. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

“Heard it In a while”?

As far as I know, what President Oaks taught has not ever been taught before, has it? (The part about the exactness to use the right hand).

Do you a source if you believe it has?

I’ve given my clear recollection from childhood, which I’ve never had occasion or reason to doubt since. 

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve already told you, LDS.org didn’t exist when I was a child. I can tell you what the conventional wisdom was back then, though, and thus why comparable current instruction from a member of the First Presidency rings true to me vs naysaying from a frequent faultfinder. 

Were members required to take the sacrament again if they were seen using their right hand?

I'd be shocked if this was ever truly taught as Pres. Oaks stated (comparing it to how the sacrament prayer has to be exact or done over).  Are you claiming it's just not been taught recently again until now?

Edited February 14, 2019 by ALarson