Calm Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, ttribe said: STOP MAKING GOOD POINTS!!! 😉 Lol, I didn't report it because traffic was slow and I was thinking I was probably being oversensitive.
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 31 minutes ago, changed said: Your goal is to avoid talking with anti's? Just FYI - when you are talking with anti's, quite often you are talking with someone who has been deeply wounded. Perhaps this is a bad analogy - but if you encounter a dog that has been abused, or even bees, what would it take for that abused creature to regain trust or faith in anything or anyone? Is the believer's goal to take the person who has been knocked around, and knock them around a little more? Make sure they have left for good? So very true! I read often on other boards and the anger comes from a few scenarios, such as finding out something they hadn't known down to realizing the choices they made in life would never have been had they not been members to losing a wife/husband or family members over their disbelief.
changed Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, I do not have anything to discuss with them if they are out (and not just wrestling with doubt). A debate will just harden them. An argument is unlikely to be cathartic for them and is the devil’s method anyways. So say something inflammatory and confusing. At least it breaks their script. I like you Nehor because you are honest and not afraid of saying what you are thinking - it feels like there are many members who hold this same belief, but they will not say it, they just give you the cold shoulder without saying anything - leave in silence, which is a horrible thing to do to someone who is hurting and looking for answers. Can I suggest that a lot of anti's are not looking for debate - they are not looking for a fight, they are genuinely trying to find answers to serious questions. Our stake will have its conference soon, and an email was sent out asking for questions. I want to submit a question, but I do not want it to appear I am attacking anyone, or wanting to start a fight or trying to pull down the faith in anyone, and I am having a hard time with the wording... perhaps with your honest spirit you could help? What can I do to both ask real questions, and give others room to respond? John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to tear down John the beloved. Dear Brother __________, Brother ___________, and Brother _____________, Thank you for your solicitation for questions for the upcoming stake conference. I know you will not be able to address all questions within the conference and will choose what you think is most relevant for the majority of the members - but am asking, if you choose not to address the following during the conference, if you could at least reply to me personally with your thoughts and opinions. At this point, I am not even asking for answers any more - I understand that everyone here, leaders or not, do not have all the answers. I would love a magic silver bullet but know there are not going to be any comforting answers to this one. So what is the point of asking a question when I know there are no answers? I guess the point of asking is to better understand the hearts of the leaders of the church - or at least the hearts of the leaders in this stake. Let me start with a scripture..... And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? .... _______________ was abused by a bishopric member from a ward in ___________. He abused many more than just _____________ - I personally know 9 of the kids from the videos he made. He is now in jail for the rest of his life, without probation under Jesssica’s law. He was abusing kids while serving as the 1st councilor in the bishopric. Years and years and years of recorded, videotaped abuse - detectives are still going through files. No one stopped it. Did not one person through all those years have the spirit? I thought the spirit was supposed to be a protection? Not only was it not stopped, he was given leadership callings in the church. Do callings come from God? How much are church leaders led by God? Are you led by God? I guess God calls people like Judas .... Why was Judas called again? What lesson are we to learn from that? I am trying really hard not to be angry or confrontational – but would anyone at least be able to stand up publicly and give everyone the freedom to not follow everything that every leader states? These kids were brought up in primary to follow their leaders and do everything they were told to do - that is why they were abused year after year. They followed their leader without question. What are children taught in primary to question for their own safety? Also, what are adults allowed to question without being disfellowshipped? I have been labeled as an ex-Mormon by some now, and there are some who will not talk to me. I no longer have a calling, or a TR, because I now claim the right to follow my own conscience above what any church leader might tell me. Call us "inactive" or call us "ex-Mormon", I am sure you know of the growing group in our stake who are leaving over unanswered questions….. Everyone has different reasons for having left, and different issues they are struggling with of course, but I think at least a few of us are trying to hold onto a faith in God - even though our faith in the church or in church leaders is not there any more. Our family, and friends still attend church - it is said "they can leave the church but cannot leave the church alone" - let me repeat, our friends and family are in the church - that is why a few of us are still tied to it. It is a bit like going through a divorce, and fighting through custody issues years after the fact I guess... so...lots of issues here I know, if I could summarize some questions I would like at least addressed - if not answered, but at least addressed - 1. Would you consider teaching children that it is ok to question their leaders? .... I like that the "Follow the prophet" primary song includes a verse about Jonah - Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away, But he later learned to listen and obey.... is there room for a discussion, with kids, about not following Jonah onto the boat, not following him into the mouth of a big fish? that there are times where they should not follow their leaders? 2. I once suggested the stake form a support group for those going through a faith crisis. This request was denied, and I was told that the regularly scheduled meetings should be enough for me. I have resisted sharing my questions in meetings as some would think they would decrease the spirit. Should I feel at liberty to honestly share my questions during Sunday meetings? or, are Sunday meetings reserved for primary questions and primary aged answers? … When I was a child I spake as a child.... are we all to see through a glass darkly, see and say everything through rose-colored lenses, or is there room in the church for someone to be vulnerable - to see face-to-face as it were? Ask real questions? People in our little ex-mormon support group (or call it “inactive” support group – not sure where people draw the line between calling us “inactive” or “ex-Mormon”) We are really open and vulnerable with one another, and I find that form of communication very healing. I have not seen this type of open honest communication during church meetings. I understand it is not appropriate to share some things in large settings but am now questioning the purpose of coming to church. I come to church because of family members – not wanting my kids to be interviewed without my being there etc. etc. I am trying to use the time during church for personal reflection and meditation but am finding it hard not to be internally stewing and critical of what is being said. Example – listening to sacrament meeting talk on being missionaries and reaching out to inactive members, while just having sat with a group of inactive members who said no one talked to them, no one reached out to them, no one asked them why they left.) … listening to talks on the promised blessings of following church doctrines, while knowing many are more apt to receive trials than blessings. … listening to anything to do with the family proclamation and gender roles, while personally acquainted with _________(sister)____________ struggling to support a family and refusing to work outside the home because it is so ingrained her that she would be a bad mother if she took on the male role of provider. I have seen, first hand, that abuse is perpetuated by the doctrine that men are protectors and providers. What is to be done? I apologize for sounding angry – and hope you can see through my anger to the issues which apply to more than just me and my family. John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to hurt any "John the beloved's" who are out there. There are many incredibly loving and caring people in this stake, and I do not want to minimize that. I no longer feel safe, or spiritually uplifted at church though.... Is our stake's leadership open to hearing concerns? 2-deep leadership and interview question concerns? leadership training on how to handle abuse concerns? self-reliance and employment for women concerns? Support group for inactive and struggling member concerns? Your struggling broken-hearted sister, ______________ ________________ ok - re-write it for me - if you were (or are) a stake pres, and received this, what would anger you? what was triggering to you? too blunt? I feel like I need to blunt though? Edited March 1, 2019 by changed
Calm Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) I think in the vast majority of cases people freeze into doing nothing because they are afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing rather than being callous or angered by others' pain. Or they may walk away because they feel nothing they do changes anything for the other and they feel helpless and hopeless and prefer not to or worry that they are encouraging in some fashion these negative feelings. Though if someone continues to strike out against something loved, they may start purposely avoiding them for that reason as they don't like being angry themselves. Edited March 1, 2019 by Calm
changed Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Calm said: I think in the vast majority of cases people freeze into doing nothing because they are afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing rather than being callous or angered by others' pain. Or they may walk away because they feel nothing they do changes anything for the other and they feel helpless and hopeless and prefer not to or worry that they are encouraging in some fashion these negative feelings. Though if someone continues to strike out against something loved, they may start purposely avoiding them for that reason as they don't like being angry themselves. Fight, Flight, Freeze... I go into fight mode. No one is hopeless. In engineering, nothing is ever perfect - nothing is exact, but we at least try. Trying is so much better than nothing. Edited March 2, 2019 by changed
SteveO Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 6 hours ago, changed said: I like you Nehor because you are honest and not afraid of saying what you are thinking - it feels like there are many members who hold this same belief, but they will not say it, they just give you the cold shoulder without saying anything - leave in silence, which is a horrible thing to do to someone who is hurting and looking for answers. Can I suggest that a lot of anti's are not looking for debate - they are not looking for a fight, they are genuinely trying to find answers to serious questions. Our stake will have its conference soon, and an email was sent out asking for questions. I want to submit a question, but I do not want it to appear I am attacking anyone, or wanting to start a fight or trying to pull down the faith in anyone, and I am having a hard time with the wording... perhaps with your honest spirit you could help? What can I do to both ask real questions, and give others room to respond? John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to tear down John the beloved. Dear Brother __________, Brother ___________, and Brother _____________, Thank you for your solicitation for questions for the upcoming stake conference. I know you will not be able to address all questions within the conference and will choose what you think is most relevant for the majority of the members - but am asking, if you choose not to address the following during the conference, if you could at least reply to me personally with your thoughts and opinions. At this point, I am not even asking for answers any more - I understand that everyone here, leaders or not, do not have all the answers. I would love a magic silver bullet but know there are not going to be any comforting answers to this one. So what is the point of asking a question when I know there are no answers? I guess the point of asking is to better understand the hearts of the leaders of the church - or at least the hearts of the leaders in this stake. Let me start with a scripture..... And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? .... _______________ was abused by a bishopric member from a ward in ___________. He abused many more than just _____________ - I personally know 9 of the kids from the videos he made. He is now in jail for the rest of his life, without probation under Jesssica’s law. He was abusing kids while serving as the 1st councilor in the bishopric. Years and years and years of recorded, videotaped abuse - detectives are still going through files. No one stopped it. Did not one person through all those years have the spirit? I thought the spirit was supposed to be a protection? Not only was it not stopped, he was given leadership callings in the church. Do callings come from God? How much are church leaders led by God? Are you led by God? I guess God calls people like Judas .... Why was Judas called again? What lesson are we to learn from that? I am trying really hard not to be angry or confrontational – but would anyone at least be able to stand up publicly and give everyone the freedom to not follow everything that every leader states? These kids were brought up in primary to follow their leaders and do everything they were told to do - that is why they were abused year after year. They followed their leader without question. What are children taught in primary to question for their own safety? Also, what are adults allowed to question without being disfellowshipped? I have been labeled as an ex-Mormon by some now, and there are some who will not talk to me. I no longer have a calling, or a TR, because I now claim the right to follow my own conscience above what any church leader might tell me. Call us "inactive" or call us "ex-Mormon", I am sure you know of the growing group in our stake who are leaving over unanswered questions….. Everyone has different reasons for having left, and different issues they are struggling with of course, but I think at least a few of us are trying to hold onto a faith in God - even though our faith in the church or in church leaders is not there any more. Our family, and friends still attend church - it is said "they can leave the church but cannot leave the church alone" - let me repeat, our friends and family are in the church - that is why a few of us are still tied to it. It is a bit like going through a divorce, and fighting through custody issues years after the fact I guess... so...lots of issues here I know, if I could summarize some questions I would like at least addressed - if not answered, but at least addressed - 1. Would you consider teaching children that it is ok to question their leaders? .... I like that the "Follow the prophet" primary song includes a verse about Jonah - Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away, But he later learned to listen and obey.... is there room for a discussion, with kids, about not following Jonah onto the boat, not following him into the mouth of a big fish? that there are times where they should not follow their leaders? 2. I once suggested the stake form a support group for those going through a faith crisis. This request was denied, and I was told that the regularly scheduled meetings should be enough for me. I have resisted sharing my questions in meetings as some would think they would decrease the spirit. Should I feel at liberty to honestly share my questions during Sunday meetings? or, are Sunday meetings reserved for primary questions and primary aged answers? … When I was a child I spake as a child.... are we all to see through a glass darkly, see and say everything through rose-colored lenses, or is there room in the church for someone to be vulnerable - to see face-to-face as it were? Ask real questions? People in our little ex-mormon support group (or call it “inactive” support group – not sure where people draw the line between calling us “inactive” or “ex-Mormon”) We are really open and vulnerable with one another, and I find that form of communication very healing. I have not seen this type of open honest communication during church meetings. I understand it is not appropriate to share some things in large settings but am now questioning the purpose of coming to church. I come to church because of family members – not wanting my kids to be interviewed without my being there etc. etc. I am trying to use the time during church for personal reflection and meditation but am finding it hard not to be internally stewing and critical of what is being said. Example – listening to sacrament meeting talk on being missionaries and reaching out to inactive members, while just having sat with a group of inactive members who said no one talked to them, no one reached out to them, no one asked them why they left.) … listening to talks on the promised blessings of following church doctrines, while knowing many are more apt to receive trials than blessings. … listening to anything to do with the family proclamation and gender roles, while personally acquainted with _________(sister)____________ struggling to support a family and refusing to work outside the home because it is so ingrained her that she would be a bad mother if she took on the male role of provider. I have seen, first hand, that abuse is perpetuated by the doctrine that men are protectors and providers. What is to be done? I apologize for sounding angry – and hope you can see through my anger to the issues which apply to more than just me and my family. John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to hurt any "John the beloved's" who are out there. There are many incredibly loving and caring people in this stake, and I do not want to minimize that. I no longer feel safe, or spiritually uplifted at church though.... Is our stake's leadership open to hearing concerns? 2-deep leadership and interview question concerns? leadership training on how to handle abuse concerns? self-reliance and employment for women concerns? Support group for inactive and struggling member concerns? Your struggling broken-hearted sister, ______________ ________________ ok - re-write it for me - if you were (or are) a stake pres, and received this, what would anger you? what was triggering to you? too blunt? I feel like I need to blunt though? What answers would you like that aren’t addressed at fairmormon? What is a lay ministry going to add that is not already there? If you aren’t currently satisfied with those answers, how will a discussion in Sunday school satiate you? From Elder Packer, all the way back in 1993, a little long, but absolutely reflects how I currently feel: There isn't time to talk about it now, but out in the Church there is another growing group of the discontented. That is the rank and file who are trying to do what they are supposed to do and feel neglected as we concentrate on solving the problems of the exceptions. Those who are hurting think they are not understood. They are looking for a champion, an advocate, someone with office and influence from whom they can receive comfort. They ask us to speak about their troubles in general conference, to put something in the curriculum, or to provide a special program to support them in their problems or with their activism. When members are hurting, it is so easy to convince ourselves that we are justified, even duty bound, to use the influence of our appointment or our calling to somehow represent them. We then become their advocates -- sympathize with their complaints against the Church, and perhaps even soften the commandments to comfort them. Unwittingly we may turn about and face the wrong way. Then the channels of revelation are reversed. Let me say that again. Then the channels of revelation are reversed. In our efforts to comfort them, we lose our bearings and leave that segment of the line to which we are assigned unprotected. I’m getting to the point now, where I’m starting to feel a little frustrated myself. I feel comfortable in saying that the vast majority of the membership aren’t going to church on Sunday to have a discussion about the complexities and controversy over plural marriage. They’re going because they’re spiritually sick and need their weekly remedy. I’m not sure why you’re complaining about the shortcomings of other members with regards to their ministry when all you’ve managed to do is sit around stewing in your criticism of them. You’re missing the entire point of church. Why are we only wringing our hands over those on their way out all the time? I’m not saying concern isn’t needed, but a disproportionate amount of concern is given to them. What about those who are hurting and dealing with their own heartaches and going to church, fulfilling their callings, paying a full tithe, going to the temple, and building the kingdom? Why are you sitting around criticizing them? If I we’re your bishop/stake president, I’d say you would see far more progress if you forgot yourself for a season, and lived the “primary answers” by looking for ways to imitate the Savior. You’re shooting beyond the mark.
bsjkki Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 6 hours ago, changed said: I like you Nehor because you are honest and not afraid of saying what you are thinking - it feels like there are many members who hold this same belief, but they will not say it, they just give you the cold shoulder without saying anything - leave in silence, which is a horrible thing to do to someone who is hurting and looking for answers. Can I suggest that a lot of anti's are not looking for debate - they are not looking for a fight, they are genuinely trying to find answers to serious questions. Our stake will have its conference soon, and an email was sent out asking for questions. I want to submit a question, but I do not want it to appear I am attacking anyone, or wanting to start a fight or trying to pull down the faith in anyone, and I am having a hard time with the wording... perhaps with your honest spirit you could help? What can I do to both ask real questions, and give others room to respond? John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to tear down John the beloved. Dear Brother __________, Brother ___________, and Brother _____________, Thank you for your solicitation for questions for the upcoming stake conference. I know you will not be able to address all questions within the conference and will choose what you think is most relevant for the majority of the members - but am asking, if you choose not to address the following during the conference, if you could at least reply to me personally with your thoughts and opinions. At this point, I am not even asking for answers any more - I understand that everyone here, leaders or not, do not have all the answers. I would love a magic silver bullet but know there are not going to be any comforting answers to this one. So what is the point of asking a question when I know there are no answers? I guess the point of asking is to better understand the hearts of the leaders of the church - or at least the hearts of the leaders in this stake. Let me start with a scripture..... And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? .... _______________ was abused by a bishopric member from a ward in ___________. He abused many more than just _____________ - I personally know 9 of the kids from the videos he made. He is now in jail for the rest of his life, without probation under Jesssica’s law. He was abusing kids while serving as the 1st councilor in the bishopric. Years and years and years of recorded, videotaped abuse - detectives are still going through files. No one stopped it. Did not one person through all those years have the spirit? I thought the spirit was supposed to be a protection? Not only was it not stopped, he was given leadership callings in the church. Do callings come from God? How much are church leaders led by God? Are you led by God? I guess God calls people like Judas .... Why was Judas called again? What lesson are we to learn from that? I am trying really hard not to be angry or confrontational – but would anyone at least be able to stand up publicly and give everyone the freedom to not follow everything that every leader states? These kids were brought up in primary to follow their leaders and do everything they were told to do - that is why they were abused year after year. They followed their leader without question. What are children taught in primary to question for their own safety? Also, what are adults allowed to question without being disfellowshipped? I have been labeled as an ex-Mormon by some now, and there are some who will not talk to me. I no longer have a calling, or a TR, because I now claim the right to follow my own conscience above what any church leader might tell me. Call us "inactive" or call us "ex-Mormon", I am sure you know of the growing group in our stake who are leaving over unanswered questions….. Everyone has different reasons for having left, and different issues they are struggling with of course, but I think at least a few of us are trying to hold onto a faith in God - even though our faith in the church or in church leaders is not there any more. Our family, and friends still attend church - it is said "they can leave the church but cannot leave the church alone" - let me repeat, our friends and family are in the church - that is why a few of us are still tied to it. It is a bit like going through a divorce, and fighting through custody issues years after the fact I guess... so...lots of issues here I know, if I could summarize some questions I would like at least addressed - if not answered, but at least addressed - 1. Would you consider teaching children that it is ok to question their leaders? .... I like that the "Follow the prophet" primary song includes a verse about Jonah - Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away, But he later learned to listen and obey.... is there room for a discussion, with kids, about not following Jonah onto the boat, not following him into the mouth of a big fish? that there are times where they should not follow their leaders? 2. I once suggested the stake form a support group for those going through a faith crisis. This request was denied, and I was told that the regularly scheduled meetings should be enough for me. I have resisted sharing my questions in meetings as some would think they would decrease the spirit. Should I feel at liberty to honestly share my questions during Sunday meetings? or, are Sunday meetings reserved for primary questions and primary aged answers? … When I was a child I spake as a child.... are we all to see through a glass darkly, see and say everything through rose-colored lenses, or is there room in the church for someone to be vulnerable - to see face-to-face as it were? Ask real questions? People in our little ex-mormon support group (or call it “inactive” support group – not sure where people draw the line between calling us “inactive” or “ex-Mormon”) We are really open and vulnerable with one another, and I find that form of communication very healing. I have not seen this type of open honest communication during church meetings. I understand it is not appropriate to share some things in large settings but am now questioning the purpose of coming to church. I come to church because of family members – not wanting my kids to be interviewed without my being there etc. etc. I am trying to use the time during church for personal reflection and meditation but am finding it hard not to be internally stewing and critical of what is being said. Example – listening to sacrament meeting talk on being missionaries and reaching out to inactive members, while just having sat with a group of inactive members who said no one talked to them, no one reached out to them, no one asked them why they left.) … listening to talks on the promised blessings of following church doctrines, while knowing many are more apt to receive trials than blessings. … listening to anything to do with the family proclamation and gender roles, while personally acquainted with _________(sister)____________ struggling to support a family and refusing to work outside the home because it is so ingrained her that she would be a bad mother if she took on the male role of provider. I have seen, first hand, that abuse is perpetuated by the doctrine that men are protectors and providers. What is to be done? I apologize for sounding angry – and hope you can see through my anger to the issues which apply to more than just me and my family. John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to hurt any "John the beloved's" who are out there. There are many incredibly loving and caring people in this stake, and I do not want to minimize that. I no longer feel safe, or spiritually uplifted at church though.... Is our stake's leadership open to hearing concerns? 2-deep leadership and interview question concerns? leadership training on how to handle abuse concerns? self-reliance and employment for women concerns? Support group for inactive and struggling member concerns? Your struggling broken-hearted sister, ______________ ________________ ok - re-write it for me - if you were (or are) a stake pres, and received this, what would anger you? what was triggering to you? too blunt? I feel like I need to blunt though? I can relate to many of your concerns and have some of your similar concerns. I have often heard from those who are struggling that there is no place to go and have an honest discussion about their Faith crisis. In Sunday School, it is not something to discuss and it seems anything less than positive and faith promoting is frowned on. I once talked to a Stake Presidency member briefly about a very deep hurt but they never got back to me with any answer to my concern and it seems, almost they pretend that the conversation never happened. I thought your letter was fine...send it. See what they say. You have been hurt, you feel betrayed. This pain is still hurting you. I am sorry. I am sorry this abuse happened. I am sorry your leaders can’t/won’t/don’t know how to help you heal from this deep wound. For many years, I could not sleep at night, and had terrible thoughts and feelings keep me up all night long with anger. I wanted to tell my leaders, in many colorful words how much they failed me. How much the church failed me. How I had failed to protect and how many mistakes I made as I tried to “support” my leaders. In trying to support imperfect leaders, I failed the one I was most needing to protect. I understand anger and bitterness. The only thing that truly helped me was reading the New Testament and seeking to know the Savior better. ...and time. It’s been 8 years and the angry thoughts and feeling only ended recently. Some days it is still a struggle but God let me know, “he’s got this” and that I just need to love and he will heal things in his own way and in his own time. I never got “satisfaction” from any encounters with church leaders and I doubt you will either but God let me know he’s there and that has made all the difference for me.
changed Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, SteveO said: Those who are hurting think they are not understood. I feel comfortable in saying that the vast majority of the membership aren’t going to church on Sunday to have a discussion about the complexities and controversy over plural marriage. They’re going because they’re spiritually sick and need their weekly remedy. Why are we only wringing our hands over those on their way out all the time? I’m not saying concern isn’t needed, but a disproportionate amount of concern is given to them. What about those who are hurting and dealing with their own heartaches and going to church, fulfilling their callings, paying a full tithe, going to the temple, and building the kingdom? Why are you sitting around criticizing them? If I we’re your bishop/stake president, I’d say you would see far more progress if you forgot yourself for a season, and lived the “primary answers” by looking for ways to imitate the Savior. You’re shooting beyond the mark. I've been on both sides now - TBM, and now to the other side of the fence - when I was TBM I did not understand the point of view of ex-m'so ... I guess you have to walk a mile in their shoes first. Yes, everyone has their problems. There are solutions to problems though - like two-deep policies with children, like training sessions for those who find themselves in counseling positions, like forming support groups for those who need it. Isn't that how healthy people deal with problems??? look for solutions??? Is no one supposed to talk about anything? Not change anything? not try to solve problems?? Edited March 2, 2019 by changed
Calm Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, changed said: Fight, Flight, Freeze... I go into fight mode. No one is hopeless. In engineering, nothing is ever perfect - nothing is exact, but we at least try. Trying is so much better than nothing. There is one case I tried for ten years or more and admit to being grateful when we needed to move as everything I did appeared to either maintain status (not good) or make things worse. I wonder if it would have been better for that person to have hit bottom or been forced to become more independent when younger and more likely perhaps to change. Not God, so I don't have a clue. And when trying appears to make things worse, then it may be best to step away for a goodly amount of time. People are not machines that will respond the right way if we just design our actions correctly. If we allow others agency, sometimes I think we have to allow that nothing we will try will help at that point...perhaps besides giving space and a lot of prayers. And some people are harmful to others. Or willing to limitlessly take. I assume you don't think we should always sacrifice ourselves to try to help anyone under any condition? If not, the question then becomes when is not trying appropriate? I do think default should be trying to help, but no one's resources are endless, so we have to pick and choose where to extend our abilities and possessions to help others. Edited March 2, 2019 by Calm 1
bsjkki Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, changed said: Isn't that how healthy people deal with problems??? look for solutions??? Is no one supposed to talk about anything? Not change anything? not try to solve problems?? I take heart in the many changes that have taken place. I take heart that changes are happening and believe the leaders of the church are aware but they are not having these discussions with me. And, that’s okay. I am in charge of my stewardship and I have made changes in my own life and in how I think and teach and interact with people. I am a better, kinder, less judge mental person and much, much less naive and I have a much deeper faith in the Savior than I did before this trial began. 1
changed Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I can relate to many of your concerns and have some of your similar concerns. I have often heard from those who are struggling that there is no place to go and have an honest discussion about their Faith crisis. In Sunday School, it is not something to discuss and it seems anything less than positive and faith promoting is frowned on. I once talked to a Stake Presidency member briefly about a very deep hurt but they never got back to me with any answer to my concern and it seems, almost they pretend that the conversation never happened. I thought your letter was fine...send it. See what they say. You have been hurt, you feel betrayed. This pain is still hurting you. I am sorry. I am sorry this abuse happened. I am sorry your leaders can’t/won’t/don’t know how to help you heal from this deep wound. For many years, I could not sleep at night, and had terrible thoughts and feelings keep me up all night long with anger. I wanted to tell my leaders, in many colorful words how much they failed me. How much the church failed me. How I had failed to protect and how many mistakes I made as I tried to “support” my leaders. In trying to support imperfect leaders, I failed the one I was most needing to protect. I understand anger and bitterness. The only thing that truly helped me was reading the New Testament and seeking to know the Savior better. ...and time. It’s been 8 years and the angry thoughts and feeling only ended recently. Some days it is still a struggle but God let me know, “he’s got this” and that I just need to love and he will heal things in his own way and in his own time. I never got “satisfaction” from any encounters with church leaders and I doubt you will either but God let me know he’s there and that has made all the difference for me. Thanks bsjkki. So very many who are hurting - I'm not trying to be selfish, I'm not trying to tear good people down - it is hell on earth. My daughter has nightmares, she is scared of the dark. I have nightmares. How many are alone in the dark? How many are walking corpses - completely numb, dragged beyond their ability to mentally process anything anymore? If no one will talk, if the only people you find comfort in are other ex-mos? Is it wrong to try to protect others from hell? to have anxiety attacks every time someone mentions a priesthood interview? ... to say nothing is to leave the door open for more abuse, more heartache. Just be quiet, keep your head down, don't say anything, keep everything to yourself, stay alone. isolated. unheard. silence. disfellowshipped. excommunicated... are these the fruits of the church that claim heaven is a place of unity and being together forever?
changed Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Calm said: There is one case I tried for ten years or more and admit to being grateful when we needed to move as everything I did appeared to either maintain status (not good) or make things worse. I wonder if it would have been better for that person to have hit bottom or been forced to become more independent when younger and more likely perhaps to change. Not God, so I don't have a clue. And when trying appears to make things worse, then it may be best to step away for a goodly amount of time. People are not machines that will respond the right way if we just design our actions correctly. If we allow others agency, sometimes I think we have to allow that nothing we will try will help at that point...perhaps besides giving space and a lot of prayers. And some people are harmful to others. Or willing to limitlessly take. I assume you don't think we should always sacrifice ourselves to try to help anyone under any condition? If not, the question then becomes when is not trying appropriate? I think brutal honesty is better than silence. Did you share with them, the case you tried to help - were you ever brutally honest with them in how they made you feel? in what you thought of them? Sometimes people need a slap in the face. The opposite of love is not hate - it is indifference, it is silence... at least for me.
Calm Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, changed said: I think brutal honesty is better than silence. Did you share with them, the case you tried to help - were you ever brutally honest with them in how they made you feel? in what you thought of them? Sometimes people need a slap in the face. Oh yes. 1
SteveO Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, changed said: I've been on both sides now - TBM, and now to the other side of the fence - when I was TBM I did not understand the point of view of ex-m'so ... I guess you have to walk a mile in their shoes first. Yes, everyone has their problems. There are solutions to problems though - like two-deep policies with children, like training sessions for those who find themselves in counseling positions, like forming support groups for those who need it. Isn't that how healthy people deal with problems??? look for solutions??? Is no one supposed to talk about anything? Not change anything? not try to solve problems?? Right, “TBM’s” never experience that crisis of faith...you’re a heroic pilgrim treading new ground... There are solutions to problems—much like the ones the church already has. Counseling for addictions, finances, job training, grieving, etc. What more do you want? It sounds like you want therapy sessions to unload your resentment at the church. Well, the church most likely isn’t going to train counselors in that endeavor anytime soon. I understand that abuse has happened. I’m sorry for that. We can and are doing better. But I’m not going into my CTR 5’s and explain the difference between a good touch and a bad touch. I’m not going to explain the difference between following the counsel of a bishop with regards to doing better at tithing or WoW, and his suggestion to take your pants off in his office. If you can’t figure out how to teach your kids where to draw the line between obeying one, and refusing the other, I’m not sure what more could be said in the church’s curriculum. If, In the year 2019, you as a parent can’t see that a bishop picking your 16 year daughter up for ice cream is inappropriate, I don’t know how many ways the brethren can say to not blindly trust others for the simple fact of being fellow members of the church. What you can do is spend the extra hour each Sunday and teach your kids your expectations and your concerns. But I don’t think we need instruction at church. Parents need to take the initiative and instruct their kids and have a plan in place to protect them. Nobody will do it better than you.
bsjkki Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, changed said: Thanks bsjkki. So very many who are hurting - I'm not trying to be selfish, I'm not trying to tear good people down - it is hell on earth. My daughter has nightmares, she is scared of the dark. I have nightmares. How many are alone in the dark? How many are walking corpses - completely numb, dragged beyond their ability to mentally process anything anymore? If no one will talk, if the only people you find comfort in are other ex-mos? Is it wrong to try to protect others from hell? to have anxiety attacks every time someone mentions a priesthood interview? ... to say nothing is to leave the door open for more abuse, more heartache. Just be quiet, keep your head down, don't say anything, keep everything to yourself, stay alone. isolated. unheard. silence. disfellowshipped. excommunicated... are these the fruits of the church that claim heaven is a place of unity and being together forever? Well, I came to this board to scream about injustice and imperfections in the church. I’ve had all those thoughts. Is it helping you to write it all out? I hope it is. I’ve heard, in therapy, writing it all down is helpful in the healing process. I wish we could go lunch so I could just listen to you express this pain. I felt very alone and isolated in a new town/new ward/no friends and church turned into the absolute worst thing in my life for awhile. I refused to let my kids have interviews for many years. We have blunt talks about what is appropriate and inappropriate questions. I let my kids know they don’t have to meet with anyone if they dont want to and I can go with them. It truly is a crossroads and you need to do what it takes so you and your loved ones can heal. I have found “peace” in my faith. My husband still struggles and comes home from church anxious and he is still angry. I pray he can find a way to let the anger go because, at this point, he is hurting himself. His anger at the church and certain people at church is causing a war within himself. It really is time for it end. He loves God and has had too many spiritual witnesses to walk away. It’s tough. It’s hard for his kids to watch him struggle. Edited March 2, 2019 by bsjkki 2
The Nehor Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 8 hours ago, changed said: I like you Nehor because you are honest and not afraid of saying what you are thinking - it feels like there are many members who hold this same belief, but they will not say it, they just give you the cold shoulder without saying anything - leave in silence, which is a horrible thing to do to someone who is hurting and looking for answers. Can I suggest that a lot of anti's are not looking for debate - they are not looking for a fight, they are genuinely trying to find answers to serious questions. Our stake will have its conference soon, and an email was sent out asking for questions. I want to submit a question, but I do not want it to appear I am attacking anyone, or wanting to start a fight or trying to pull down the faith in anyone, and I am having a hard time with the wording... perhaps with your honest spirit you could help? What can I do to both ask real questions, and give others room to respond? John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to tear down John the beloved. Dear Brother __________, Brother ___________, and Brother _____________, Thank you for your solicitation for questions for the upcoming stake conference. I know you will not be able to address all questions within the conference and will choose what you think is most relevant for the majority of the members - but am asking, if you choose not to address the following during the conference, if you could at least reply to me personally with your thoughts and opinions. At this point, I am not even asking for answers any more - I understand that everyone here, leaders or not, do not have all the answers. I would love a magic silver bullet but know there are not going to be any comforting answers to this one. So what is the point of asking a question when I know there are no answers? I guess the point of asking is to better understand the hearts of the leaders of the church - or at least the hearts of the leaders in this stake. Let me start with a scripture..... And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? .... _______________ was abused by a bishopric member from a ward in ___________. He abused many more than just _____________ - I personally know 9 of the kids from the videos he made. He is now in jail for the rest of his life, without probation under Jesssica’s law. He was abusing kids while serving as the 1st councilor in the bishopric. Years and years and years of recorded, videotaped abuse - detectives are still going through files. No one stopped it. Did not one person through all those years have the spirit? I thought the spirit was supposed to be a protection? Not only was it not stopped, he was given leadership callings in the church. Do callings come from God? How much are church leaders led by God? Are you led by God? I guess God calls people like Judas .... Why was Judas called again? What lesson are we to learn from that? I am trying really hard not to be angry or confrontational – but would anyone at least be able to stand up publicly and give everyone the freedom to not follow everything that every leader states? These kids were brought up in primary to follow their leaders and do everything they were told to do - that is why they were abused year after year. They followed their leader without question. What are children taught in primary to question for their own safety? Also, what are adults allowed to question without being disfellowshipped? I have been labeled as an ex-Mormon by some now, and there are some who will not talk to me. I no longer have a calling, or a TR, because I now claim the right to follow my own conscience above what any church leader might tell me. Call us "inactive" or call us "ex-Mormon", I am sure you know of the growing group in our stake who are leaving over unanswered questions….. Everyone has different reasons for having left, and different issues they are struggling with of course, but I think at least a few of us are trying to hold onto a faith in God - even though our faith in the church or in church leaders is not there any more. Our family, and friends still attend church - it is said "they can leave the church but cannot leave the church alone" - let me repeat, our friends and family are in the church - that is why a few of us are still tied to it. It is a bit like going through a divorce, and fighting through custody issues years after the fact I guess... so...lots of issues here I know, if I could summarize some questions I would like at least addressed - if not answered, but at least addressed - 1. Would you consider teaching children that it is ok to question their leaders? .... I like that the "Follow the prophet" primary song includes a verse about Jonah - Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away, But he later learned to listen and obey.... is there room for a discussion, with kids, about not following Jonah onto the boat, not following him into the mouth of a big fish? that there are times where they should not follow their leaders? 2. I once suggested the stake form a support group for those going through a faith crisis. This request was denied, and I was told that the regularly scheduled meetings should be enough for me. I have resisted sharing my questions in meetings as some would think they would decrease the spirit. Should I feel at liberty to honestly share my questions during Sunday meetings? or, are Sunday meetings reserved for primary questions and primary aged answers? … When I was a child I spake as a child.... are we all to see through a glass darkly, see and say everything through rose-colored lenses, or is there room in the church for someone to be vulnerable - to see face-to-face as it were? Ask real questions? People in our little ex-mormon support group (or call it “inactive” support group – not sure where people draw the line between calling us “inactive” or “ex-Mormon”) We are really open and vulnerable with one another, and I find that form of communication very healing. I have not seen this type of open honest communication during church meetings. I understand it is not appropriate to share some things in large settings but am now questioning the purpose of coming to church. I come to church because of family members – not wanting my kids to be interviewed without my being there etc. etc. I am trying to use the time during church for personal reflection and meditation but am finding it hard not to be internally stewing and critical of what is being said. Example – listening to sacrament meeting talk on being missionaries and reaching out to inactive members, while just having sat with a group of inactive members who said no one talked to them, no one reached out to them, no one asked them why they left.) … listening to talks on the promised blessings of following church doctrines, while knowing many are more apt to receive trials than blessings. … listening to anything to do with the family proclamation and gender roles, while personally acquainted with _________(sister)____________ struggling to support a family and refusing to work outside the home because it is so ingrained her that she would be a bad mother if she took on the male role of provider. I have seen, first hand, that abuse is perpetuated by the doctrine that men are protectors and providers. What is to be done? I apologize for sounding angry – and hope you can see through my anger to the issues which apply to more than just me and my family. John the beloved vs. Judas - I don't want to hurt any "John the beloved's" who are out there. There are many incredibly loving and caring people in this stake, and I do not want to minimize that. I no longer feel safe, or spiritually uplifted at church though.... Is our stake's leadership open to hearing concerns? 2-deep leadership and interview question concerns? leadership training on how to handle abuse concerns? self-reliance and employment for women concerns? Support group for inactive and struggling member concerns? Your struggling broken-hearted sister, ______________ ________________ ok - re-write it for me - if you were (or are) a stake pres, and received this, what would anger you? what was triggering to you? too blunt? I feel like I need to blunt though? I am not comfortable helping you write this. Plus I am a writer by trade and would have to charge you. If I were the Stake President I think I would not respond or would send a letter. I definitely would not read it in Conference. I would recommend taking out the "Lord, is it I?" I think overt abusers know who they are and do not have to do soul-searching to figure that out. 1
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