Silk in Ancient MesoAmerica

[cdowis]

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"Silk in ancient mesoamerica?  Now you have gone too far." 

Aren't you the idiot that claimed that particles of matter have intelligence.  Please ignore him.

Silk -- any suggestions?  😎

[CV75]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

Silk -- any suggestions?  😎

Look at pages 31 and 48 of this book:

https://archive.org/details/reportsondiscove00markrich/page/30

Francisco de Xerez, Miguel de Estete, Hernando Pizarro, Pedro Sancho - (Translated by B. Franklin), Reports on the discovery of Peru.

There are also Hebrew words that get translated as "silk" that actually describe other plant and animal materials (linen, lace, hair, etc.) or other sophisticated means of manufacture that renders them fine and costly: shesh, demeshek, mashah.

Edited December 8, 2018 by CV75

[cdowis]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

There are also Hebrew words that get translated as "silk" that actually describe other plant and animal materials (linen, lace, hair, etc.) or other sophisticated means of manufacture that renders them fine and costly: shesh, demeshek, mashah.

ok, I have heard of that, but that falls under the category of a horse is not a horse. 

I was looking at a really interesting  possibility..  What if ....... our assumptions are incorrect..

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by cdowis

[CV75]

9 hours ago, cdowis said:

ok, I have heard of that, but that falls under the category of a horse is not a horse. 

I was looking at a really interesting  possibility..  What if ....... our assumptions are incorrect..

I assume that all the time and still "silk" is good for a working purposes.

[cdowis]

1. "chinese ocean voyages "

2. Circa 3000 BCE -- Silk cloth produced in China

 

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, cdowis said:

1. "chinese ocean voyages "

2. Circa 3000 BCE -- Silk cloth produced in China

 

I once read a (fairly controversial) book* about that, but I think it is certainly plausible.

*1421: The Year China Discovered America by Gavin Menzies

[RevTestament]

21 hours ago, cdowis said:

Silk -- any suggestions?  😎

Cloth made from the flower silk of the milk weed.

Sorry, you Mesoamericanists.

In S. America the hair of the Alpaca(esp infants) is sometimes compared to silk. 

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Cloth made from the flower silk of the milk weed.

Sorry, you Mesoamericanists.

No problem.  I agree that Nephites lived in the land northward. 

Too bad the Book of Mormon makes little mention of them.  Not even a footnote about the famous warrior Zelph.  👀

Edited December 9, 2018 by cdowis

[mrmarklin]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:47 AM, cdowis said:

Silk -- any suggestions?  😎

Likely not from silkworms. 

 

There may be another material that is silk like that would qualify. 

 

But at some level as another poster said “a horse is a horse”. 

 

BTW I’m not convinced at all by the Mesoamerican model. I much prefer SA as the venue. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by mrmarklin

[smac97]

From John L. Sorenson's "Open Letter to Michael Coe":

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“Silk. Nothing.” [Part 1, 31:50]

The Spaniards described at least five Mesoamerican varieties of what they termed “silk” or its equivalent; none of them used the species of silkworm that prevailed in East Asia.¹⁸

---

¹⁸ A treatment of this topic appeared in Sorenson, Ancient American Setting, 232. The Mesoamerican “silk” materials were from various plant and animal fibers.

And here:

Quote

Parent page:Book of Mormon/Textiles/Silk

Sorenson: Linen and silk textiles in ancient America

John L. Sorenson:^[1]

Linen and silk are textiles mentioned in the Book of Mormon (Alma 4:6). Neither fabric as we now know them was found in Mesoamerica at the coming of the Spaniards. The problem might be no more than linguistic. The redoubtable Bernal Diaz, who served with Cortez in the initial wave of conquest, described native Mexican garments made of "henequen which is like linen." ^[2]The fiber of the maguey plant, from which henequen was manufactured, closely resembles the flax fiber used to make European linen. Several kinds of "silk," too, were reported by the conquerors. One kind was of thread spun from the fine hair on the bellies of rabbits. Padre Motolinia also reported the presence of a wild silkworm, although he thought the Indians did not make use of the cocoons. But other reports indicate that wild silk was spun and woven in certain areas of Mesoamerica. Another type came from the pod of the ceiba tree. ^[3] We may never discover actual remains of these fabrics, but at least the use of the words in the Book of Mormon now seems to offer no problem.

1.  John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]), 232. See also Sorenson, "Silk and Linen in the Book of Mormon," Ensign (April 1992): 62.
2.  A.P. Maudslay, trans. and ed. Bernal Diaz del Castillo: The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico, 1517-1521 (New York: Farrar, Straus, and Cudahy, 1956), p. 24. (Note: Sorenson p. 232 note 52 corresponds to endnote 52, p. 382).
3.  I.W. Johnson, "Basketry and Textiles," HMAI 10, part 1 (1971), p. 312. Matthew Wallrath in Excavations in the Tehuantepec Region, Mexico, American Philosophical Society Transactions, n.s. 57, part 2 (1967) p. 12, notes that wild silk was collected and spun in the isthmus area, and that the cloth had very high value. Clavigero also reported that fiber of the ceiba tree's pod was woven by Mexican Indians into fabric "as soft and delicate, and perhaps more so, than silk." C. Cullen, ed., The History of Mexico, vol. 1 (Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1817), p. 41. (Note: Sorenson p. 232 note 54 corresponds to endnote 53, p. 382)

More here.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

Burp!  

Edited December 11, 2018 by Kenngo1969