Jeanne Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 11 hours ago, california boy said: Ok, it seems you are determined to be chosen as the one that gets to decide what is sin and what is not. So I will let you be the one to decide. I have some very good friends who biologically were unable to have any childruen. They decided to adopt. Maggie was a beautiful baby zgirl, just what they hoped to adopt. After careful consideration, they applied to adopt her. But in the process, they were told that Maggie had an older brother. He was a bit of a handful, angry that his biological parents had abandoned him. But he also needed a loving home. Would they please consider taking both siblings, keeping them together and adopting Trevor as well. It was not what they were expecting, but their hearts were deeply touched and they agreed to adopt the two siblings. About 5 years later, they were thinking that perhaps they would like to adopt one more child to complete their (as you would put it) "family". They talked to Maggie and Trevor about their plan. All agreed that would wonderful. So my friends went back to the adoption agency and applied to adopt again. The agency looked over their history and noticed that before they were willing to adopt siblings. Then they told my friends that they actually had 4 siblings. None were cute new born babies. All under 10. But they needed good parents to raise them. Wow, my friends were not expecting that. They didn't even have room in their house for 4 more kids. But their hearts were touched and they agreed to adopt them all. I am not going to say that this adoption has been easy. It hasn't. There was some resentment from the two older kids for having so many brothers and sisters, now demanding the resources of the family. But they are making it work. So, good master, who has sinned? The biological parents who abandoned their children or the couple who were unable to have children who wanted a family enough to take on this responsibility and give these kids a loving home. You want to be the judge? Go ahead and judge them. Condemn who you will. And show us why it is important to judge these families as harshly as you have in defending your position that these families need to be judged by someone and you are the one to do it. Let us be perfectly clear when making the kind of judgements that you have been making against gay families and straight families that are unable to have "real children". What you have so clearly condemned them for in not being able to have their own biological children is actually what they should be praised for the most. These parents are NOT ripping children out of the arms of loving biological parents. These couples are raising children that have been abandoned, thrown aside, cast off as being just too inconvenient in their biological parents lives. And you want to castigate the couples that are raising these children? And you want to make that judgement a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Tell me, wise master, who has sinned?. Who deserves the prejudice you have showed towards these families? Who do you judge as worthy parents? What sin do you want to condemn here? Should your condemnation be directed at the biological parents, or those who take in these unwanted cast off children? Judge the sin here. Wow...what wonderful people....what a wonderful couple and how many lives will be blessed by their hearts being touched. The sin lies with the parents.
california boy Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 3 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Cal, have I ever said that parenting children is a sin? CFR I have never intended to say nor have I attempted to insinuate it. This is a red herring and has nothing to do with what I have stated previously in this thread or anywhere else. What was this rant about? Because it sounds to me you are pretty aggressively attacking gay couples. Quote I suppose common sense is hostile to stupidity; there are a lot of things that are hostile, but hostility does not invalidate the concept. Within a spiritual context, God created the world and placed a man, with his helpmeet - a woman - with the initial command to go; be fruitful and multiply. This great command is completely beyond the realm of possibility for any gay couple. The path of two individuals who choose to imitate God's command is death. There is no life in their relationship because the foundation itself is death. Is God hostile to incorrect choices? Yes, apparently so in the same way that he is hostile to all sin. There is no super prize for SSA - it is just sin. God, biology, common sense all direct towards proper choices. The mere fact that two individuals sense an attraction to one another does not make it right or correct; nor does it automatically make it warm and loving. If a human's choice is the standard for acceptable sexual behavior then the world is doomed. Human sexuality, especially male sexuality, is polymorphous, or utterly wild and without restraint. Men have had sex with women and with men; with little girls and boys; with a single partner and in large groups; with total strangers and immediate family members; and with a variety of domesticated animals. They have achieved orgasm with inanimate objects, through urinating and defecating on each other (check out photographer Robert Mapplethorpe); by dressing in women’s garments; by watching other human being tortured; by listening to a disembodied voice (e.g., “phone sex”); and, of course, by looking at pictures of bodies or parts of bodies. There is little, animate or inanimate, that has not excited some men to orgasm. Of course, not all of these practices have been condoned by societies—parent-child incest and seducing another’s man’s wife have rarely been countenanced—but many have, and all illustrate what the unchanneled, or in Freudian terms, the “un-sublimated,” sex drive can lead to. You, and others, somehow think that simply because two humans of the same sex then everything is okay. God's teachings, the fundamental reason for being on this earth, and all of biological science should be ignored because, well because they "love" each other. I get rather tired of this silly, rainbow (no pun intended) colored reason gets traipsed out when the topic comes up. All the world is supposed to stop because two individuals of the same sex love each other. It is not that they lust, it is not that they lust with hundreds, if not thousands, of others who choose similarly, but that it is equal to what God has commanded. Then wrapping it up with every topic - adoptive parents in this case - everyone is just supposed to look the other way. Can individuals parent a child? Yes. No, a homosexual couple is not the same as a heterosexual couple. Can a gay individual parent a child? Yes. The point is that in the same way that I am not a farmer just because I can go out into a field and throw seeds about so a gay individual is not a parent just because they can parent a child that is not their own. There are consequences to the choices we make in this life. For those individuals that choose a gay lifestyle, this is one of the consequences. A mother and a father are not replaceable with two females or two males. And then you follow up your post with this comment about gay couples and their families. Quote Cal, there is a world of difference between the sinner and the sin. I think you have conflated what I have stated and taken it personally rather than an attack on the sin itself. I ask you a question - should sin never be acknowledged? Did Jesus ever teach that sin was unimportant? When should we look the other way when it comes to sin? If as all you are saying is you think gay couples are sinning, then fine. Everyone on this board knows the church's stand of apostate gay couples. I wouldn't have even responded. But your post went much further than that. Say what you clearly mean and let's move on. 1
Storm Rider Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, california boy said: What was this rant about? Because it sounds to me you are pretty aggressively attacking gay couples. And then you follow up your post with this comment about gay couples and their families. If as all you are saying is you think gay couples are sinning, then fine. Everyone on this board knows the church's stand of apostate gay couples. I wouldn't have even responded. But your post went much further than that. Say what you clearly mean and let's move on. This is rather tedious but is demonstrative of how the Gay agenda pushes its objectives. Homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is clear on this point and only the committed blind individual can conclude otherwise. My post was and is intended to define any behavior that is contrary to God's purpose as a behavior that leads to spiritual death. I understand the need for a kneejerk response - we all do that for those topics we hold dear - so that does not bother me. I get it. 1
california boy Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: This is rather tedious but is demonstrative of how the Gay agenda pushes its objectives. Homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is clear on this point and only the committed blind individual can conclude otherwise. My post was and is intended to define any behavior that is contrary to God's purpose as a behavior that leads to spiritual death. I understand the need for a kneejerk response - we all do that for those topics we hold dear - so that does not bother me. I get it. You do realize that your position on gay couples, while aligns with the church's, is not shared by the majority of Americans. This may surprise you, but not everyone is in complete agreement on what the Bible says about this subject along with many others. To rant about others ramming their beliefs down your throat, perhaps you should understand that they are doing no such thing. What they are doing is standing up for their beliefs. Something that I would hope you would be ok with. Edited July 8, 2018 by california boy 1
USU78 Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: You do realize that your position on gay couples, while aligns with the church's, is not shared by the majority of Americans. This may surprise you, but not everyone is in complete agreement on what the Bible says about this subject along with many others. To rant about others ramming their beliefs down your throat, perhaps you should understand that they are doing no such thing. What they are doing is standing up for their beliefs. Something that I would hope you would be ok with. A majority of Americans, or so it seems, likes kehl. Don't make it right.
california boy Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 16 minutes ago, USU78 said: A majority of Americans, or so it seems, likes kehl. Don't make it right. Don’t make it right from your point of view. They still have just as much of a right to voice their opinion as you do.
USU78 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: Don’t make it right from your point of view. They still have just as much of a right to voice their opinion as you do. Who's trying to shut whom up?
california boy Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, USU78 said: Who's trying to shut whom up? Well, let's see. I know religions that send thousands out going from door to door to convince otheres that their lifestyle should be embraced. Almost every newspaper and a lot of magazines have their own section on religion. They build buildings all over the place to try and gather people into their lifestyle. Bibles are often found en hotel rooms intruding on those that stay. They spend millions of dollars on political campaigns to try and get their way. Religion has countless television and radio stations pushing their agenda. When the LGBT supporters get to the same level as religion in "forcing their lifestyle down peoples throats" let me know. Or maybe we should just respect that people have different points of view. We all choose what lifestyle we want to live. And we all are able to stand up for what we believe is a healthy and fulfilling lifestyle. Edited July 9, 2018 by california boy
USU78 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 5 hours ago, california boy said: Well, let's see. I know religions that send thousands out going from door to door to convince otheres that their lifestyle should be embraced. Almost every newspaper and a lot of magazines have their own section on religion. They build buildings all over the place to try and gather people into their lifestyle. Bibles are often found en hotel rooms intruding on those that stay. They spend millions of dollars on political campaigns to try and get their way. Religion has countless television and radio stations pushing their agenda. When the LGBT supporters get to the same level as religion in "forcing their lifestyle down peoples throats" let me know. Or maybe we should just respect that people have different points of view. We all choose what lifestyle we want to live. And we all are able to stand up for what we believe is a healthy and fulfilling lifestyle. Ridiculous. You were shouting down a poster and I called you on it. Now you justify your antiMormon virulence with imagined pursuers.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) On 7/7/2018 at 11:57 AM, Storm Rider said: I suppose common sense is hostile to stupidity; there are a lot of things that are hostile, but hostility does not invalidate the concept. Within a spiritual context, God created the world and placed a man, with his helpmeet - a woman - with the initial command to go; be fruitful and multiply. This great command is completely beyond the realm of possibility for any gay couple. The path of two individuals who choose to imitate God's command is death. There is no life in their relationship because the foundation itself is death. Is God hostile to incorrect choices? Yes, apparently so in the same way that he is hostile to all sin. There is no super prize for SSA - it is just sin. God, biology, common sense all direct towards proper choices. The mere fact that two individuals sense an attraction to one another does not make it right or correct; nor does it automatically make it warm and loving. If a human's choice is the standard for acceptable sexual behavior then the world is doomed. Human sexuality, especially male sexuality, is polymorphous, or utterly wild and without restraint. Men have had sex with women and with men; with little girls and boys; with a single partner and in large groups; with total strangers and immediate family members; and with a variety of domesticated animals. They have achieved orgasm with inanimate objects, through urinating and defecating on each other (check out photographer Robert Mapplethorpe); by dressing in women’s garments; by watching other human being tortured; by listening to a disembodied voice (e.g., “phone sex”); and, of course, by looking at pictures of bodies or parts of bodies. There is little, animate or inanimate, that has not excited some men to orgasm. Of course, not all of these practices have been condoned by societies—parent-child incest and seducing another’s man’s wife have rarely been countenanced—but many have, and all illustrate what the unchanneled, or in Freudian terms, the “un-sublimated,” sex drive can lead to. You, and others, somehow think that simply because two humans of the same sex then everything is okay. God's teachings, the fundamental reason for being on this earth, and all of biological science should be ignored because, well because they "love" each other. I get rather tired of this silly, rainbow (no pun intended) colored reason gets traipsed out when the topic comes up. All the world is supposed to stop because two individuals of the same sex love each other. It is not that they lust, it is not that they lust with hundreds, if not thousands, of others who choose similarly, but that it is equal to what God has commanded. Then wrapping it up with every topic - adoptive parents in this case - everyone is just supposed to look the other way. Can individuals parent a child? Yes. No, a homosexual couple is not the same as a heterosexual couple. Can a gay individual parent a child? Yes. The point is that in the same way that I am not a farmer just because I can go out into a field and throw seeds about so a gay individual is not a parent just because they can parent a child that is not their own. There are consequences to the choices we make in this life. For those individuals that choose a gay lifestyle, this is one of the consequences. A mother and a father are not replaceable with two females or two males. Apparently you are redefining "parent", because if a gay person "parents" a child, that absolutely means they are a "parent". Again, saying the child is not the gay couples "own" because they've adopted also takes a swipe at every adoptive family out there. Do you see that? I'm not intending this to be aimed at you personally because I believe the thoughts you've expressed here are shared by many in the church, but as long as that belief/teaching/attitude persists in the church, many will continue to label the church as a bigoted organization. Refusing to accept the obvious, that a gay parent is a parent, only illustrates the unreasonableness of the argument. It's not a very inspiring vision of Christianity, even for a straight white guy like me. So people can pound the pulpit and rail against gays as much as they like. I just hope that you and others realize that every time you pound your fists you push many people away, both straight and gay. John 8:1-11 Edited July 9, 2018 by HappyJackWagon 2
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