Testimony in new prophet

[thatjimguy]

We are supposed to confirm with the Holy Spirit. I dare even say commanded to do so.

Only the adversary would want to convince you not to.

[SouthernMo]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Both, as you cannot get to one without working through the other. You cannot come to Christ except through baptism, and the Church holds the authority to administer that ordinance.

So again, you cannot get to one without working through the other.

66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

I want to make sure I understand your belief and logic.  Correct me if I misunderstand:

Of all the billions of Gods children who have come to earth, His divine plan of the atonement - whom Jesus Christ championed - will only save the few million who are baptized LDS?  The rest, who serve, love, and lead good lives are all damned?

Is this the god you worship? Is this the Mormon god?

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

I want to make sure I understand your belief and logic.  Correct me if I misunderstand:

Of all the billions of Gods children who have come to earth, His divine plan of the atonement - whom Jesus Christ championed - will only save the few million who are baptized LDS?  The rest, who serve, love, and lead good lives are all damned?

Is this the god you worship? Is this the Mormon god?

You ask a fair question a fair question.  I will try to answer it, but I can only scratch the surface here (not enough time-- busy day ahead.)  It is definitely NOT as you postulate in your question, although I can see why you would think it could be.

The closest thing to a creed that we have is our articles of faith;

The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints        
        
            1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
            2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
            3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
            4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
            5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
            6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
            7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
            8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
            9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
            10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
            11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
            12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
            13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

The God Mormons worship is not a god of confusion, but a God or order.  Those who perform sacred ordinances such as Baptism must have authority from God to act in His name, as stated in Hebrews 5:4 "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron..." who was called by one with authority from God by the laying on of hands, as stated in our 5th Article of Faith quoted above.

Mormons believe there have been billions who have lived on earth who were good and honorable people who loved their fellow beings, and God, to the best of their understanding.  They acted according to the light of Christ that was in them.  But many, if not most, were never taught about Jesus Christ and how He shed His blood for them that they might be forgiven on condition of repentance, and have the joy of Christ in their lives.  I believe they worshipped God according to their conscience, although unaware of the Savior.  We believe God has provided a way for them to be taught the Gospel of Christ, and receive the sacred ordinance of Baptism vicariously.  That is important because Jesus taught in John 3:5 "...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."  He sent His disciples forth to preach "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..."  Mark 16:15-16

1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 may shed some light on why we are baptized vicariously:

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
            19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (Christ began ministering to those who had already died)
            20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

And:

"6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Just as we can't atone for our own sins (that required the infinite sacrifice of our Creator, Jesus Christ in our behalf-- a vicarious sacrifice,) we seek out our kindred dead and perform those ordinances for them in our Temples.  They can either accept or reject them.

If they choose to reject the work done for them, they cannot live where God dwells.  No unclean thing can enter there-- only those who have accepted Jesus Christ, repented of their sins and accepted the sacred ordinance of baptism by one who has authority to perform it.

Rather than be "damned," in the traditional Christian sense, they will reside in a lower kingdom of glory where they will blessed according to what they would receive.  Rather than being damned in everlasting burnings, they are dammed, as a river is dammed to prevent it from going where it is not permitted to go.  The God we worship is not capricious or arbitrary.  He gives everyone the same opportunity to learn of Him, and gives them the greatest eternal reward they are willing to receive.

Having said that, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galations 6:7, and "21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
            23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  Matt. 7:21-23

The God Mormons worship provides a universal resurrection.  "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."  1 Cor. 15:22

The God Mormons worship loves all of His children, and provides a kingdom of glory for all except Perdition.  

I hope that's helpful to you.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Meerkat

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

I want to make sure I understand your belief and logic.  Correct me if I misunderstand:

Of all the billions of Gods children who have come to earth, His divine plan of the atonement - whom Jesus Christ championed - will only save the few million who are baptized LDS?  The rest, who serve, love, and lead good lives are all damned?

Is this the god you worship? Is this the Mormon god?

Yes, except I don't think it will only be the few million baptized so far.

I personally believe that since providing the immortality and eternal life of man is God's work that we will have far more opportunities to follow the one path than we realize, both in this life and the next.

The  authority currently vested only in the LDS Church is needed for us to start that journey right now. 

 

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I want to make sure I understand your belief and logic.  Correct me if I misunderstand:

Of all the billions of Gods children who have come to earth, His divine plan of the atonement - whom Jesus Christ championed - will only save the few million who are baptized LDS?  The rest, who serve, love, and lead good lives are all damned?

Is this the god you worship? Is this the Mormon god?

Huh. I thought most or all people who frequented this board, whether pro-Mormon or anti-Mormon or whatever, would be aware of the Church's teaching that the vast majority of all people who come to earth will be saved and go to heaven, one of the degrees of heaven, and receive rewards far greater than they can imagine. I also thought that people who came to this board would be aware that the Church is doing quite a bit to extend the greatest blessings of the Gospel to as many of God's children as possible, even to those who have already passed on. Based on all this (and it can't even be fully elaborated in my feeble little post) it seems odd that someone would come here and accuse us of deliberately limiting salvation to a precious few. SouthernMo, are you aware of how much effort The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints puts into striving to bring the blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to literally everyone? Maybe this could become a good learning opportunity for you. The Church is far more merciful than you realize. It's not about thanking God that we are saved whilst all around us are elected to be cast down to hell.

[Meerkat]

7 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

In my experience, my testimony has suffered when I have not separated God from the LDS chuch.  To say that there is no separation?  If I held your view, I would have left the church by now - expecting that this organization is perfectly aligned with my Heavenly Father, and being disappointed.

While I refuse to list the many, many mistakes men have made in this church INCLUDING the leaders of our church, to pretend that this church and all its decisions are in perfect harmony with God and that there is no separation is dangerous and harmful.  Dangerous because while God will not fail me, this church has.  Harmful because some teachings from church leaders have led me and others to suicidal attempts, depression, isolation, and addiction.  Harmful because the contradictions between teachings are never explained - only leaving those of us who ask about them feeling gaslighted, and consequently more isolated and confused.

Don't get me wrong - I believe, to @Bernard Gui's point, the testimony of the Savior and of this organization are not mutually exclusive.  I don't have to choose between God and the LDS Church.  But, it is hard for me to see how anyone can claim that a separation does not exist.

@JLHPROF Seriously - explain to me how you can believe that God's will is perfectly exemplified in this church?  In all God's great glory, perfection, peace, and beauty - you see all this in this LDS Church?  A flawless organization?  Where is this Zion you speak of?

Even Jesus Christ learned line upon line, precept upon precept.  

And we learn from others mistakes as well as our own.  I think the Scriptures are pretty perfect, at least as perfect as God working through mortal scribes can be.

If you mean, by separating God from the Church, that you get your answers directly from God, I think we're entitled to direct revelation on anything that's important to us.  

I believe you when you say you feel gaslighted.  You've experienced some awful things.  If you've ever watched the movie, Gaslight, you know it took it's name from a husband who deliberately deceived his wife to drive her crazy by turning the gas lights down or up, causing strange noises, etc.  My experience in the Church is that any of us can make human mistakes, and mistakes in judgment, etc. that could come across as gas lighting.  But I believe few if them are deliberate.  And any that are deliberate, that would cause an experience like yours, well, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.  But aside from deliberate failings, I think we need to try to forgive just as we need to be forgiven.  I know that's not always easy to do, especially when there's been a great offense, even a perceived offense.  Remember, even the great Apostle Peter denied Christ three times.

[SouthernMo]

There does not seem to be a consistent LDS belief regarding the fate of those who chose not to be baptized.

@JLHPROF says that those who don’t accept LDS baptism are damned, but @Meerkat and @CMZ indicate that God is far more merciful, but that he rewards those who accept the LDS creed.

Do I understand now?  There is no consistent LDS belief as to what happens to those who don’t join this church?

[CMZ]

11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

There does not seem to be a consistent LDS belief regarding the fate of those who chose not to be baptized.

@JLHPROF says that those who don’t accept LDS baptism are damned, but @Meerkat and @CMZ indicate that God is far more merciful, but that he rewards those who accept the LDS creed.

Do I understand now?  There is no consistent LDS belief as to what happens to those who don’t join this church?

SouthernMo, let's help your understanding a little bit more: those who don’t accept LDS baptism may be "damned" in the sense that they cannot enter the celestial kingdom (the highest), but they can still enter the terrestrial (the middle) or telestial kingdom (the lowest, but still whose glory "surpasses all understanding" [D&C 76:89]). There is pretty much a heaven for everyone. But even then, even with all this talk of differing degrees of glory, the Church is still trying to make the highest blessings available to everyone and believes that everyone will be given a full and complete chance to accept it of their own accord.

Edited May 12, 2018 by CMZ

[SouthernMo]

14 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

But I believe few if them are deliberate. 

I completely agree. Exceptionally rare it must be when leaders in this church try to harm its members (or anyone for that matter!).

Where I (and maybe others?) feel confused/deceived/crazy is when mistakes that have been made aren’t addressed.

One small example: Joseph Smith once stated that Quakers live on the moon.

Is my testimony insufficient for this church if I think that’s nuts?  While is is VERY minor, I wonder if any leaders of the church would openly repudiate that statement?  Or, in the interest of keeping faith in prophets, do our leaders look past statements like that?

Again, the Quaker statement is fairly inconsequential, but the failure to ‘set the record straight’ on past inconsistencies and falsehoods causes me to wonder if I am crazy.  How does a member of this church be faithful to (false, odd, contradictory) statements made by leaders?

The answer I hear is “a prophet is only a prophet when speaking as such” (or something like that). But - who decides when a prophet is speaking as one?  What about modern prophets?  Can I be a faithful Mormon if I decide that sometimes Russell Nelson is not speaking as a prophet?

This is a struggle for me - and why I wonder if I belong. So many Mormons are comfortable with this, but I am not.

Has anyone resolved this or come to peace with this question?

[Meerkat]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

There does not seem to be a consistent LDS belief regarding the fate of those who chose not to be baptized.

@JLHPROF says that those who don’t accept LDS baptism are damned, but @Meerkat and @CMZ indicate that God is far more merciful, but that he rewards those who accept the LDS creed.

Do I understand now?  There is no consistent LDS belief as to what happens to those who don’t join this church?

I'm sure I misunderstand many things.  I think God allows us to misunderstand things on our road to learning.

D&C 138 is a wonderful scripture that clarifies many things and some of your questions:

"31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
            32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
            33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
            34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

God is filled with mercy and love, regardless of how cruel we can be.  He leaves no stone unturned to bring the Gospel to us all.

[SouthernMo]

6 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

"31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
            32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
            33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
            34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

This is one of the most beautiful truths revealed since the restoration - but to me the problem remains that there are so many good people who reject the LDS church on this earth, who are alive today.

Why would we expect more people (billions more?) to accept LDS baptism in the afterlife?

[Jeanne]

34 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Even Jesus Christ learned line upon line, precept upon precept.  

And we learn from others mistakes as well as our own.  I think the Scriptures are pretty perfect, at least as perfect as God working through mortal scribes can be.

If you mean, by separating God from the Church, that you get your answers directly from God, I think we're entitled to direct revelation on anything that's important to us.  

I believe you when you say you feel gaslighted.  You've experienced some awful things.  If you've ever watched the movie, Gaslight, you know it took it's name from a husband who deliberately deceived his wife to drive her crazy by turning the gas lights down or up, causing strange noises, etc.  My experience in the Church is that any of us can make human mistakes, and mistakes in judgment, etc. that could come across as gas lighting.  But I believe few if them are deliberate.  And any that are deliberate, that would cause an experience like yours, well, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.  But aside from deliberate failings, I think we need to try to forgive just as we need to be forgiven.  I know that's not always easy to do, especially when there's been a great offense, even a perceived offense.  Remember, even the great Apostle Peter denied Christ three times.

Why would the Son of God HAVE TO learn line upon line..precept upon precept?

[JLHPROF]

40 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

There does not seem to be a consistent LDS belief regarding the fate of those who chose not to be baptized.

@JLHPROF says that those who don’t accept LDS baptism are damned, but @Meerkat and @CMZ indicate that God is far more merciful, but that he rewards those who accept the LDS creed.

Do I understand now?  There is no consistent LDS belief as to what happens to those who don’t join this church?

Baptism is the gateway into God's kingdom.  The Church holds the authority to do that.  Simple.

That is consistent LDS teaching.

It's not about joining the Church.  There was no Church when Joseph and Oliver were baptized.  It's about coming to Christ through authoritative baptism.

Damnation is an entirely different issue.  But until that ordinance is performed and accepted they are severely limited in their progress.

Edited May 12, 2018 by JLHPROF

[CMZ]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

This is one of the most beautiful truths revealed since the restoration - but to me the problem remains that there are so many good people who reject the LDS church on this earth, who are alive today.

Why would we expect more people (billions more?) to accept LDS baptism in the afterlife?

Remember that we as mortals can't judge if they are acting on a full and complete knowledge. Our mission is simply to do all we can to bring the truths of the gospel to them and invite them. Ultimately each individual has the final say.

[CMZ]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Why would the Son of God HAVE TO learn line upon line..precept upon precept?

Because everyone does? Nobody learns everything all at once.

[CMZ]

Quote

D&C 123:12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it.

 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Why would the Son of God HAVE TO learn line upon line..precept upon precept?

Because in order to experience mortality he was subject to the same veil we are.

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Why would the Son of God HAVE TO learn line upon line..precept upon precept?

Pure speculation on my part....because even He was limited in some way by the veil. Also, he was learning along with the rest of us what it is like to live in a mortal body on a fallen earth.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Meerkat]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

One small example: Joseph Smith once stated that Quakers live on the moon.

Is my testimony insufficient for this church if I think that’s nuts?

Actually, that sounds pretty nuts to me.  I can't argue with you there.   I appreciate your perspective that that instance is inconsequential.

Joseph Smith was a man.  However, I can't get past the powerful testimony from the Holy Ghost as I read the Book of Mormon.  We are each entitled to personal revelation on all pounts of the Gospel.  I am fully converted to the Book of Mormon, and therefore that Joseph Smith was a prophet.  I have not received a revelation on Quakers on the moon.  Frankly, I don't believe that is an accurate statement, even if Joseph Smith said it.  

But I believe this from Alma 5: 

"Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
            12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
            13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.
            14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

I have experienced that mighty change of heart in just that way.  I have bern saved from a life of sin and sorrow through Jesus Christ.  The Holy Ghost has changed me.  The experiences I read about in the Book of Mormon are so clear, wise and accurate (comparing my experiences to them,) that I am convinced that a young man Joseph's age when he translated it, could not have had that depth.

So there's a lot I let slide that I don't understand because of the things I do.

You, by the way, have some great insights.  I appreciate your frankness and vulnerability.  Your testimony of this church IS sufficient, in my opinion BECAUSE you are entitled to personal revelation about everything.  You aren't required to believe anything that isn't true.  Quakers on the moon? NAH! But there are some things I will withhold judgment on.  The Gospel I follow is encapsulated in the title and hymn "Lord, I would follow thee." Maybe yours is too.

[CMZ]

Quote

 

We have sustained President Russell M. Nelson as the 17th President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As I have had the blessing of working with him each day, I have felt a confirmation of the Spirit that President Nelson is called of God to lead the Lord’s true Church.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/inspired-ministering?lang=eng

 

 

[SouthernMo]

23 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Why would the Son of God HAVE TO learn line upon line..precept upon precept?

It was once pointed out to me that Christ needed faith, too:

Matt 26: 39: And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Why would Christ have asked if there was another way unless he was unsure?  He seems to be moving forward with faith - not knowledge.  This is a guess on my part, but wouldn’t it make sense that his faith grew?  If it did, wouldn’t it grow like the rest of ours - little by little?

 

[Meerkat]

25 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Why would the Son of God HAVE TO learn line upon line..precept upon precept?

He had to experience everything we did, including ignorance, to know how to succor us in our times of need.

I love Isaiah 53:

"1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
            2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
            3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
            4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
            5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
            6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
            7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
            8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
            9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
            10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
            11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
            12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Jeanne]

20 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Because everyone does? Nobody learns everything all at once.

Okay..I understand then what you and others are saying and believe..but is there a divinity of His Father that gave Him a better understanding and/or better perception in the perfection He attained?  Somehow, I have always thought that it may not have been easier for Jesus but at least a divine certain knowledge that made Him more than mortal in His own mortality. I know that this doesn't make sense..but being a Son of God had to have added gifts of divine knowledge that we mortals could only obtain on that line upon line.

[Jeanne]

12 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It was once pointed out to me that Christ needed faith, too:

Matt 26: 39: And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Why would Christ have asked if there was another way unless he was unsure?  He seems to be moving forward with faith - not knowledge.  This is a guess on my part, but wouldn’t it make sense that his faith grew?  If it did, wouldn’t it grow like the rest of ours - little by little?

 

Thank you.  Like I say, I think I just assumed that there was this huge asset in mortality to being the Son of God.  This makes me more ashamed I think..because it must be possible to attain perfection..and I am so not close to that.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Okay..I understand then what you and others are saying and believe..but is there a divinity of His Father that gave Him a better understanding and/or better perception in the perfection He attained?  Somehow, I have always thought that it may not have been easier for Jesus but at least a divine certain knowledge that made Him more than mortal in His own mortality. I know that this doesn't make sense..but being a Son of God had to have added gifts of divine knowledge that we mortals could only obtain on that line upon line.

Christ is the perfect exemplar.  In order for him to set the example, he had to be subject to the same conditions we are.