Brigham Young and the Love of God

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, Gray said:

This "file leader" notion is like a spiritual vacuum for me. Sucks all the spirit out of the room. Without that particular term, inspiring.

Why?  In this statement it refers directly to our Savior.  Is he not supposed to be our file leader?

It is no different than Christ stating "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" or that "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do."
 

Obedience to those in priesthood authority over us is a primary commandment.  It is an eternal principle that even Christ himself follows.

Edited March 15, 2018 by JLHPROF

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

This "file leader" notion is like a spiritual vacuum for me. Sucks all the spirit out of the room. Without that particular term, inspiring.

File leader:

"the soldier at the front of any file, who covers and leads those in rear of him (webster-dictionary.org)."

I don't think there could be a more apt, inspiring, and stirring description of him.  Christ is my file leader, standing in front for protection and guidance.  He leads me and protects me in battle with the adversary. 

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Revelation 19:11-21
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...

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Ephesians 6:10-18
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, ...

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2 Tim 2:3,4Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

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Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name.

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Isaiah 42:13
The LORD will go forth like a warrior, He will arouse His zeal like a man of war He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry He will prevail against His enemies.

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Psalm 144:1-2 
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle; he is my steadfast love and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield and he in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples under me.

Again, there could not be a more assuring and inspiring description of him.  I love it, it fills me with hope, assurance, and love for Him who goes before me to battle my demons, who protects me, covers me under his protective wing, and leads me as a shepherd leads his sheep and protects them from harm.  

[Gray]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

File leader:

"the soldier at the front of any file, who covers and leads those in rear of him (webster-dictionary.org)."

I don't think there could be a more apt, inspiring, and stirring description of him.  Christ is my file leader, standing in front for protection and guidance.  He leads me and protects me in battle with the adversary. 

Again, there could not be a more assuring and inspiring description of him.  I love it, it fills me with hope, assurance, and love for Him who goes before me to battle my demons, who protects me, covers me under his protective wing, and leads me as a shepherd leads his sheep and protects them from harm.  

 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Why?  In this statement it refers directly to our Savior.  Is he not supposed to be our file leader?

It is no different than Christ stating "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" or that "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do."
 

Obedience to those in priesthood authority over us is a primary commandment.  It is an eternal principle that even Christ himself follows.

I think my problem was I didn't know what the word meant. I thought it had some kind of bureaucratic connotation. I find notions of a celestial bureaucracy nauseatingly uninspiring (just a personal thing). Now that I know what it means, it's less bothersome, for whatever reason. (obviously this is just my emotional response)

 

Thanks!

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/13/2018 at 2:12 PM, Avatar4321 said:

I doubt Brigham or anyone really understands the love of God.

So, serving valiantly and unflinchingly as an apostle and prophet for decades, bearing a constant faithful witness of God, Joseph, and the Restoration, serving  all those hard missions, grieving at his best friends’ - Joseph and Hyrum - graves, seeing the destruction of the Temple and the homes he helped build, witnessing the deaths of the Saints on the Plains, overseeing the sacrifices to settle the Western valleys, having a large family while under threat from government and secular enemies, telling the Saints to prepare to burn everything and flee to the mountains, after all that and much, much more, Brigham didn't really understand the love of God? Maybe not, I suppose.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/12/2018 at 1:04 PM, Jeanne said:

I appreciate any insight to this..because of all the prophets..BY seems to still sting me.  He was wise in some government issues and wise in how to build a city..he was not perfect of course...but he made some huge spaces in between what Joseph sometimes taught..and made it his own.

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I can’t undertake to explain Brigham Young to your Atlantic citizens, or expect you to put him at his value.  Your great men Eastward are to me like your ivory and pearl handled table knives, balance handles, more shiny than the inside of my watch case; but, with only edge enough to slice bread and cheese or help spoon victuals, and all alike by the dozen one with another.  Brigham is the article that sells out West with us – between a Roman cutlass and a beef butcher knife, the thing to cut up a deer or cut down an enemy, and that will save your life or carve your dinner every bit as well, though the handpiece is buck horn and the case a hogskin hanging in the breech of your pantaloons.  You, that judge men by the handle and sheath, how can I make you know a good Blade? https://uniformlyuninformative.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/brigham-young-american-moses-by-leonard-j-arrington/

 

 

He was the man the Lord needed at the time.

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

He was the man the Lord needed at the time.

Well...can't beat that..

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well...can't beat that..

Nothing to beat. The infant Church was in a life or death struggle in a harsh land and needed a Moses, not a Job.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nothing to beat. The infant Church was in a life or death struggle and needed a Moses, not a Job.

Just one question...yes, BY was a strong person with a strong personality...for all his greatness though..there are still problems that create a division in the church that has mormons walking away...did God see this as a good thing?

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Just one question...yes, BY was a strong person with a strong personality...for all his greatness though..there are still problems that create a division in the church that has mormons walking away...did God see this as a good thing?

The fence posts of God's standards don't change.
People have eternally been moving towards them and walking away from them.

Brigham didn't change that.  People's inability to accept things of God has always been part of the gospel story.  People allowing those things that aren't of God but come from his servants to drive them away is no different.
Moses was a prophet, the Children of Israel were constantly changing in their devotion to God.  The entire Book of Mormon shows the cycle of society walking towards God or walking away from God.
Brigham may have made mistakes, but allowing those mistakes to drive people from the Church is just another excuse.  People will always find an excuse to leave or an excuse to stay.  The choice is entirely theirs.

[Avatar4321]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, serving valiantly and unflinchingly as an apostle and prophet for decades, bearing a constant faithful witness of God, Joseph, and the Restoration, serving  all those hard missions, grieving at his best friends’ - Joseph and Hyrum - graves, seeing the destruction of the Temple and the homes he helped build, witnessing the deaths of the Saints on the Plains, overseeing the sacrifices to settle the Western valleys, having a large family while under threat from government and secular enemies, telling the Saints to prepare to burn everything and flee to the mountains, after all that and much, much more, Brigham didn't really understand the love of God? Maybe not, I suppose.

Can anyone truly understand the magnitude of Gods love? Sure we can feel a portion of it. But can mortals understand it fully? I’m not sure 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Just one question...yes, BY was a strong person with a strong personality...for all his greatness though..there are still problems that create a division in the church that has mormons walking away...did God see this as a good thing?

At one point almost every one of Jesus's disciples left him because he said some hard things. At his death, pretty much everyone abandoned him, with just tiny bunch hangers-on. People walk away for many reasons, none of which is good, but they choose what they want to do. Where else should we go to find life eternal?

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John 6

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Can anyone truly understand the magnitude of Gods love? Sure we can feel a portion of it. But can mortals understand it fully? I’m not sure 

I understand what you are saying. In my opinion, BY probably understood it better than I do because of what he experienced in his lifetime. My trials are trivial compared with what he went through, but they have taught me much about humility, patience, and unconditional love that I could have learned no other way. Misery is a great tutor.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui