Genesis 5, 10 and the D&C 107 Genealogies

[snowflake]

The genealogies in Genesis 5, Genesis 10 and D&C 107, 41-53 all support the biblical narrative that the ancient patriarchs lived a long time.  When I ask Christians about the age of the patriarchs and if the genealogies are to be trusted as accurate, most of the responses are skeptical about the accuracy of the narrative.  How do the LDS feel about the accuracy of these genealogies and do you really believe people could live this long? And I understand that the D&C 107 isn't a specific genealogy, but it absollutely supports the Genesis 5 account. 

[JAHS]

 Many have suggested that time was counted differently back then than it is now, but there is at least no evidence in the scriptures that a year then was much different than what we call a year now. After the fall of Adam, the genetic line of his descendents would have been very pure, perhaps providing for very healthy long lives.

It is interesting to note that after the flood, the lifespan of people started to decline rapidly, as if the flood caused some alteration in the atmosphere that had an effect on the aging process. The theory goes that the rains that came during the flood destroyed the "canopy" or inversion layer of the atmosphere, permanently changing the earth's climate. This canopy had until this time caused a nearly uniform, warm climate over all the earth and had prevented moist air from rising and condensing to form rain: " . . . the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth. . . ." (Genesis 2:5.). Rather, plants were watered by dew that formed "in the cool of the day." (Genesis 3:8.) Destruction of the canopy also allowed small amounts of ozone, formed from oxygen in the upper atmosphere by ultraviolet light from the sun, to reach the earth's surface, greatly shortening the lifespans of people born after the time of Noah.
This is all speculation. 

[JLHPROF]

There are many theories among members to explain this away, ranging from the "these people likely never existed" crowd to the more academic explanations about how time was measured back then.

Personally, I'm a believer that they really did have extended lifespans.

[snowflake]

9 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 Many have suggested that time was counted differently back then than it is now, but there is at least no evidence in the scriptures that a year then was much different than what we call a year now. After the fall of Adam, the genetic line of his descendents would have been very pure, perhaps providing for very healthy long lives.

It is interesting to note that after the flood, the lifespan of people started to decline rapidly, as if the flood caused some alteration in the atmosphere that had an effect on the aging process. The theory goes that the rains that came during the flood destroyed the "canopy" or inversion layer of the atmosphere, permanently changing the earth's climate. This canopy had until this time caused a nearly uniform, warm climate over all the earth and had prevented moist air from rising and condensing to form rain: " . . . the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth. . . ." (Genesis 2:5.). Rather, plants were watered by dew that formed "in the cool of the day." (Genesis 3:8.) Destruction of the canopy also allowed small amounts of ozone, formed from oxygen in the upper atmosphere by ultraviolet light from the sun, to reach the earth's surface, greatly shortening the lifespans of people born after the time of Noah.
This is all speculation. 

Thanks for your take, and I agree with you here. Life spans were shortened significantly after the flood. Do you think the lifespans and genealogies are to be trusted as accurate?

[snowflake]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There are many theories among members to explain this away, ranging from the "these people likely never existed" crowd to the more academic explanations about how time was measured back then.

Personally, I'm a believer that they really did have extended lifespans.

I'm with you JLHPROF, i'm one of those crazies that thinks the scriptures are accurate and that the lifespans and genealogies are to be trusted.....how about you?

[JAHS]

57 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Thanks for your take, and I agree with you here. Life spans were shortened significantly after the flood. Do you think the lifespans and genealogies are to be trusted as accurate?

I think all I can say on that is that I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. The question is are the ages of the prophets as stated in the Bible considered the word of God or is it just the doctrines in the Bible that are the word of God? The prophets back then were not infallible jut like our prophets today are not infallible. Could stories like Moses parting the red sea be an exaggeration of what really happened?  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I'm with you JLHPROF, i'm one of those crazies that thinks the scriptures are accurate and that the lifespans and genealogies are to be trusted.....how about you?

Yes, as a general rule, I would agree.
I am open to the possibility of some error, but I find such teachings fit with other doctrinal theology and cosmology in Mormonism, and see no benefit in trying to separate it out.

But then I'm one of those rebels that think the creation account is historical too (although filled with allegory) and that evolution was not the method used.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

.............................

The genealogies in Genesis 5, Genesis 10 and D&C 107, 41-53 all support the biblical narrative that the ancient patriarchs lived a long time.  When I ask Christians about the age of the patriarchs and if the genealogies are to be trusted as accurate, most of the responses are skeptical about the accuracy of the narrative.  How do the LDS feel about the accuracy of these genealogies and do you really believe people could live this long? And I understand that the D&C 107 isn't a specific genealogy, but it absollutely supports the Genesis 5 account. 

You left out the Book of Moses, and the figures you provided on your chart are merely one version of the biblical text -- there is not agreement among the Hebrew and Greek Septuagint (which was translated from a no longer existing Hebrew version).  So we don't have accuracy.  Still, the Ante-Diluvian lifespans are very long and generally pose the question whether any humans could have lived that long no matter what the conditions were.

We also have very long lives in the more ancient Sumerian King List from Mesopotamia -- a total of 241,200 years, whereas the biblical list covers a total of only 6,695 years.  Several scholars have noted that, when the biblical total is converted to Mesopotamian sexigesimal values, it is exactly the same as the Sumerian number.  There is clearly a strong relationship between the two systems, and we know that the ancestors of the Hebrews came from Mesopotamia.  The Mesopotamians also had Creation and Flood Stories very similar to the Hebrews.  The Hebrew language did not exist in Abraham's day, so that any such ancient traditions had to be passed on for thousands of years, translated from one language to another, from one tradition to another.  Those who edited and redacted the Hebrew Bible had no way of knowing whether any of those old traditions were accurate.  They were already part of a very ancient cultural heritage.  Much of the Bible is figurative in any case, so that ultimate judgments about this or that story are difficult to make.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

My faith in Jesus Christ, His Gospel, His Church, etc. aren't affected by one point of view or the other, all of which I've contemplated at some point. As far as I am concerned, these genealogies might as well be accurate and the patriarchs might as well have lived this long.

[Gray]

About as accurate as the accounts of Paul Bunyan and Babe. They're stories, not histories.

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, Gray said:

About as accurate as the accounts of Paul Bunyan and Babe. They're stories, not histories.

I'm so looking forward to the day you meet Adam and Noah and Moses face to face as Joseph did.

[Gray]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm so looking forward to the day you meet Adam and Noah and Moses face to face as Joseph did.

I'm even more looking forward to meeting Paul Bunyan face to... ankle, I guess.

I'd also be interested in seeing the actual apple in "the apple of my eye" and the actual clam in "happy as a clam".

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Gray

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You left out the Book of Moses, and the figures you provided on your chart are merely one version of the biblical text -- there is not agreement among the Hebrew and Greek Septuagint (which was translated from a no longer existing Hebrew version).  So we don't have accuracy.  Still, the Ante-Diluvian lifespans are very long and generally pose the question whether any humans could have lived that long no matter what the conditions were.

We also have very long lives in the more ancient Sumerian King List from Mesopotamia -- a total of 241,200 years, whereas the biblical list covers a total of only 6,695 years.  Several scholars have noted that, when the biblical total is converted to Mesopotamian sexigesimal values, it is exactly the same as the Sumerian number.  There is clearly a strong relationship between the two systems, and we know that the ancestors of the Hebrews came from Mesopotamia.  The Mesopotamians also had Creation and Flood Stories very similar to the Hebrews.  The Hebrew language did not exist in Abraham's day, so that any such ancient traditions had to be passed on for thousands of years, translated from one language to another, from one tradition to another.  Those who edited and redacted the Hebrew Bible had no way of knowing whether any of those old traditions were accurate.  They were already part of a very ancient cultural heritage.  Much of the Bible is figurative in any case, so that ultimate judgments about this or that story are difficult to make.

Do you think section 107 is accurate in stating that Enoch was 430 years old when he was translated? 

 47 Jared was two hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam, who also blessed him.

48 Enoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

49 And he saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually; and he walked with God three hundred and sixty-five years, making him four hundred and thirty years old when he was translated.

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'm even more looking forward to meeting Paul Bunyan face to... ankle, I guess.

I'd also be interested in seeing the actual apple in "the apple of my eye" and the actual clam in "happy as a clam".

I think I am more concerned with your doubt of the modern prophets who met these people than your lack of belief in the historicity of the Bible.

It's one thing to say I doubt Moses existed because the Bible is just myth or whatever.
It's another to say I doubt Moses existed when the leaders of your Church actually saw the man, and possibly had him speak to them and lay his hands upon their heads.

I am willing to acknowledge much allegory and symbolism in scripture.  But I draw the line at saying Joseph Smith lied about it or was deceived.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Do you think section 107 is accurate in stating that Enoch was 430 years old when he was translated? 

 47 Jared was two hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam, who also blessed him.

48 Enoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

49 And he saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually; and he walked with God three hundred and sixty-five years, making him four hundred and thirty years old when he was translated.

Good question, to which I have no firm answer.  However, Enoch has a close parallel in Old Babylonian tradition of the ten Ante-Diluvian heroes, the seventh of which, Enmeduranki/Enmeduranna (Enoch was likewise seventh in the biblical genealogy), was also taken directly by God!*  In addition, as Speiser points out, “Enmeduranna’s capital city was the ancient center of the sun god of Sippar, which could explain the solar number of 365 that is recorded for Enoch.” 

*  Helge S. Kvanvig, Roots of Apocalyptic: The Mesopotamian Background of the Enoch Figure and the Son of Man (1988).

**  Ephraim Speiser, Genesis, 43, citing Driver, Book of Genesis, 12th ed. (1926), 78-79.

We already know for certain that many other biblical numbers are highly symbolic and are deliberately structured in sophisticated mathematical relationships:

Abraham	7 x 52	= 175 years		(5 + 5 + 7 = 17)
Sarah		127	(2 x 60) + 7 = 127)
Isaac	5 x 62	= 180	3 x 60 = 180	(6 + 6 + 5 = 17)
Jacob	3 x 72	= 147	2 x 70 = 147	(7 + 7 + 3 = 17)
Joseph	1 x (52 + 62 + 72)	= 110		(8 + 8 + 1 = 17)

Moreover, note that Joseph spends 17 years with Jacob in Canaan, and 17 years with him in Egypt (part of the chiastic symmetry of the Joseph Narrative).

[Gray]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think I am more concerned with your doubt of the modern prophets who met these people than your lack of belief in the historicity of the Bible.

It's one thing to say I doubt Moses existed because the Bible is just myth or whatever.
It's another to say I doubt Moses existed when the leaders of your Church actually saw the man, and possibly had him speak to them and lay his hands upon their heads.

I am willing to acknowledge much allegory and symbolism in scripture.  But I draw the line at saying Joseph Smith lied about it or was deceived.

Lots of people have visions about meeting deceased persons. My opinion is that these in the mind only, not external to the mind. One can even consider and acknowledge these visions as revelatory without believing that such persons existed in history.

Of course my original point was about the lifespans of these characters, not necessarily their historical existence.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Gray

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

Lots of people have visions about meeting deceased persons. My opinion is that these in the mind only, not external to the mind.

Ordinations in the mind are contrary to the gospel.

[Gray]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Ordinations in the mind are contrary to the gospel.

As you please. Ordinances are symbolic. You can obsess about the shape and spacing of letters in the word "cat" if you like, or you can focus on the actual meaning of the word "cat".

[theplains]

On 16/02/2018 at 12:15 PM, JLHPROF said:

I'm so looking forward to the day you meet Adam and Noah and Moses face to face as Joseph did.

Don't you mean Michael the Archangel (Adam) and Gabriel (Noah)?

Jim

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Don't you mean Michael the Archangel (Adam) and Gabriel (Noah)?

Jim

Of course.  That's a given.