Some things to think about.

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No. That's is a direct reference to the fall.  Without the atonement our fallen natures with even one sin would prevent resurrection and leave us in the grave.  The wages of sin is that we remain dead physically too.

Yes, I know. But even with the Atonement, the wage of sin is spiritual death for those who do not repent.

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Are you saying the Holy Spirit and Jesus initially before he got a body wasn't perfect ? Do you have any proof texts from the Book of Mormon or Bible teaching that ?

Just His own words. He does not refer to Himself as perfect until after His resurrection. 

In your opinion, why do you think that is?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yes, I know. But even with the Atonement, the wage of sin is spiritual death for those who do not repent.

True. But in the context of filovirus question, all of our bodies have to pay the penalty of sin.  We all die.  If it weren't for Christ making up the difference we would remain that way.

Being born into a world under sin requires all of us to die to pass back.  Accepting Christ's atonement covers all those sins which would bar us from his presence and leave us physically dead forever.

Sin causes both physical AND  spiritual death.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, you would say that.  And you are welcome to be wrong.

Could you give me a scripture from either the Book of Mormon or Bible that tells me I'm wrong ?

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Just His own words. He does not refer to Himself as perfect until after His resurrection. 

In your opinion, why do you think that is?

Where after his resurrection does Jesus teach all of a sudden he became perfect, either the Book of Mormon or Bible would suffice 

[co-eternal]

34 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Where after his resurrection does Jesus teach all of a sudden he became perfect, either the Book of Mormon or Bible would suffice 

3 Nephi 12: Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

[co-eternal]

38 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Could you give me a scripture from either the Book of Mormon or Bible that tells me I'm wrong ?

Quote

Matthew 5: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Quote

3 Nephi 12: Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Could you give me a scripture from either the Book of Mormon or Bible that tells me I'm wrong ?

There idea that Christ was always perfect (which in Matthew means complete) would negate Jesus ability to show any progression, already being perfect.  Scripture shows Christ progressed.

We can start with two.

He did not at that time even consider himself to be completely good, let alone as perfect as God.

• Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

He learned and increased in wisdom and he gained more favor with God than he previously had.

• Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Edited December 22, 2017 by JLHPROF

[FormerLDS]

14 hours ago, filovirus said:

Can you explain a little more? I don't know if I understand this concept.

The concept is not something inherently obvious to LDS Christians because LDS theology presents doctrines drastically different with respect to, among pretty-much everything else, being "born again", which is where the new, spiritual life originates.

"Eternal life" means your soul is "born again", spiritually.  Jesus Christ himself enters the soul through belief in Him.  That's what evangelicals refer to when they say "ask Jesus to come into your heart".  What they mean is "receive Him, His gift of life into your soul".

Accordingly, 100% of the initial salvation process on earth happens spiritually, not physically.  Eternal life is essentially like a door prize given right up front.  In the end, it will be given physically when we are with him in new bodies.

Being "perfect" therefore means that one has His perfection attributed to one's own self because He lives within your soul.  Do you see?  This "new life" within your soul makes it possible for those on this earth who HAVE Eternal Life (Jesus Christ) within them and those who do not (1 John 5).

Friends, Jesus Christ is knocking at the door of your heart and has been your entire life.  If you hear His voice and choose to open that door of belief, he will come in to your soul and give you the gift of eternal life - His perfection - today.  

[FormerLDS]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Exactly, eternal life is a gift to all.  Christian, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Mormon, and pretty much anyone else.
Christ says none are lost but the sons of perdition.

So what makes the difference between those who merely receive eternal life (live forever in resurrected bodies) and those who dwell in the presence of Christ and the Father.
Everyone gets the gift.  Not every gets to be part of the kingdom of heaven.

Living forever in resurrected bodies is not "eternal life" according to LDS theology.  Look it up.

Living forever in resurrected bodies is called "immortality".

[FormerLDS]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

The wages of sin is spiritual death.  But I suppose that one could say that the wages of sin (as in the Fall) is physical death.

The wages of sin is death.  Period.  Physical and spiritual.  

Unless you believe your body will never die of course...

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Where after his resurrection does Jesus teach all of a sudden he became perfect, either the Book of Mormon or Bible would suffice 

Matt. 5:48 (Be perfect as the Father is perfect).

3 Ne 12 (Be perfect as the Father and I are perfect).

Like I asked earlier, why do you believe He changed the wording of the commandment?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The wages of sin is death.  Period.  Physical and spiritual.  

Unless you believe your body will never die of course...

Yes, I already said that I can correctly be looked at that way.

[co-eternal]

So the first two scriptures show that it is the Atonement & Resurrection Perfected Christ such that he became like the Father.

So what of the second pair of scriptures? What have they to do with this? What do they mean?

 

Quote

D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

 

What events are each describing? When does eah event occur? Who are the actors in each event? What are the results of each event?

Edited December 22, 2017 by co-eternal

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Quote

FormerLDS said:
Easy?  Absolutely!  I didn't have to do anything because Jesus did it ALL for me just like He said he would.  Eternal life is a gift friends, not the reward of worthy behavior.

Living forever in resurrected bodies is not "eternal life" according to LDS theology.  Look it up.

Living forever in resurrected bodies is called "immortality".

But we aren't only talking LDS theology here are we?  We are comparing LDS belief about salvation vs non-LDS beliefs.

Because if we limit ourselves to LDS theology then yes, there is a difference, and terms like exaltation, salvation in a Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom, and the dreaded "works" come into play.
You are correct, eternal life vs living eternally has a distinction in LDS theology based on obedience to God's law.  All will be resurrected but there are difference levels of salvation.

Robert Millett wrote:

• "From an LDS perspective, there are two types of salvation...universal and individual. Universal salvation is from physical death, a salvation available to all.  Immortality is salvation from the grave...it is a universal gift.  Individual salvation is another matter.  Though all salvation is available through the goodness and grace of Christ, there are certain things that must be done in order for divine grace and mercy to be activated."  (A Different Jesus? pg 95).

But the traditional Christian view is that the only kind of salvation = eternal life in heaven with Christ.  It's heaven or hell, saved or damned.  Those who are saved are those who go to heaven, those who aren't saved go to hell, and being resurrected has nothing to do with it (which makes me wonder what the big deal about resurrection is to the traditional Christian).  The traditional Christian apparently makes no connection between the term salvation and redemption from the grave.  

Yet redemption from the grave, death and the fall was the free gift Christ gave to all.  It is literally the plan of salvation.  In Adam all men fall and in Christ all men live again.  That's the free gift of salvation.  The reversal of the fall.  That was Christ's calling.
So if we are talking only in LDS theology we have to acknowledge both types of salvation.  If you want to limit us to traditional Christian theology and reject there are two types of salvation then we aren't talking about what Mormons believe any more.
You can't have it both ways.  Making LDS theology fit into the traditional Christian understanding of the Bible is neither necessary nor desired.

Edited December 22, 2017 by JLHPROF

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The concept is not something inherently obvious to LDS Christians because LDS theology presents doctrines drastically different with respect to, among pretty-much everything else, being "born again", which is where the new, spiritual life originates.

"Eternal life" means your soul is "born again", spiritually.  Jesus Christ himself enters the soul through belief in Him.  That's what evangelicals refer to when they say "ask Jesus to come into your heart".  What they mean is "receive Him, His gift of life into your soul".

Accordingly, 100% of the initial salvation process on earth happens spiritually, not physically.  Eternal life is essentially like a door prize given right up front.  In the end, it will be given physically when we are with him in new bodies.

Being "perfect" therefore means that one has His perfection attributed to one's own self because He lives within your soul.  Do you see?  This "new life" within your soul makes it possible for those on this earth who HAVE Eternal Life (Jesus Christ) within them and those who do not (1 John 5).

Friends, Jesus Christ is knocking at the door of your heart and has been your entire life.  If you hear His voice and choose to open that door of belief, he will come in to your soul and give you the gift of eternal life - His perfection - today.  

Is there anything a person can do after "being saved" to lose salvation?  Does Christ reside in the soul of a man during the act of cheating on his wife with different women each weekend, child abuse, even murder?  Does Christ essentially become a free pass to do whatever you want without guilt?  Just trying to understand how this is not a reckless way to live.

  

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But we aren't only talking LDS theology here are we?  We are comparing LDS belief about salvation vs non-LDS beliefs.

Because if we limit ourselves to LDS theology then yes, there is a difference, and terms like exaltation, salvation in a Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom, and the dreaded "works" come into play.
You are correct, eternal life vs living eternally has a distinction in LDS theology based on obedience to God's law.  All will be resurrected but there are difference levels of salvation.

Robert Millett wrote:

• "From an LDS perspective, there are two types of salvation...universal and individual. Universal salvation is from physical death, a salvation available to all.  Immortality is salvation from the grave...it is a universal gift.  Individual salvation is another matter.  Though all salvation is available through the goodness and grace of Christ, there are certain things that must be done in order for divine grace and mercy to be activated."  (A Different Jesus? pg 95).

But the traditional Christian view is that the only kind of salvation = eternal life in heaven with Christ.  It's heaven or hell, saved or damned.  Those who are saved are those who go to heaven, those who aren't saved go to hell, and being resurrected has nothing to do with it (which makes me wonder what the big deal about resurrection is to the traditional Christian).  The traditional Christian apparently makes no connection between the term salvation and redemption from the grave.  

Yet redemption from the grave, death and the fall was the free gift Christ gave to all.  It is literally the plan of salvation.  In Adam all men fall and in Christ all men live again.  That's the free gift of salvation.  The reversal of the fall.  That was Christ's calling.
So if we are talking only in LDS theology we have to acknowledge both types of salvation.  If you want to limit us to traditional Christian theology and reject there are two types of salvation then we aren't talking about what Mormons believe any more.
You can't have it both ways.  Making LDS theology fit into the traditional Christian understanding of the Bible is neither necessary nor desired.

Doesn't the Book of Mormon agree with Traditional Christianity when it comes to either heaven or hell ?

[Josh Khinder]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

Just His own words. He does not refer to Himself as perfect until after His resurrection. 

In your opinion, why do you think that is?

 because it's obvious Jesus was always perfect, The Bible also teaches not all of his words are recorded , at Bible study we discovered words Paul said that Jesus said not recorded in the Bible of than Paul's 

3 Nephi 12: Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Is this recorded before or after his resurrection, I would say before which disagrees with Bluebell's thinking 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Josh Khinder

[Josh Khinder]

11 hours ago, co-eternal said:

3 Nephi 12: Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Is this recorded before or after his resurrection, I would say before which disagrees with Bluebell's thinking 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

 because it's obvious Jesus was always perfect, The Bible also teaches not all of his words are recorded , at Bible study we discovered words Paul said that Jesus said not recorded in the Bible of than Paul's 

3 Nephi 12: Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Is this recorded before or after his resurrection, I would say before which disagrees with Bluebell's thinking 

 

It's after His resurrection, it says right in the BOM that it's after.

And how is it obvious?  What references can you share?

[FormerLDS]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Is there anything a person can do after "being saved" to lose salvation?  Does Christ reside in the soul of a man during the act of cheating on his wife with different women each weekend, child abuse, even murder?  Does Christ essentially become a free pass to do whatever you want without guilt?  Just trying to understand how this is not a reckless way to live.

  

Is there any act you can perform to no longer be the son or daughter of your parents?

Likewise, those who are born again through works not of their own have a new Father and are made perfect forever more.

Just think for a moment how truly wonderful, free and incredible it would be to have that kind of salvation right now friends.

That is what Jesus Christ will give you if you would only first allow eternal life to be a free gift, not the reward of worthy behavior.

[FormerLDS]

3 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Doesn't the Book of Mormon agree with Traditional Christianity when it comes to either heaven or hell ?

Reason why the BoM is handed to traditional Christians - there isn't much in there which they would disagree.  

Think about it, when's the last time you handed an investigator a copy of the D&C?

Exactly.

See "It felt so familiar" videos on LDS.org...

Edited December 22, 2017 by FormerLDS
Added link

[pogi]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Is there any act you can perform to no longer be the son or daughter of your parents?

Likewise, those who are born again through works not of their own have a new Father and are made perfect forever more.

Just think for a moment how truly wonderful, free and incredible it would be to have that kind of salvation right now friends.

That is what Jesus Christ will give you if you would only first allow eternal life to be a free gift, not the reward of worthy behavior.

I'm sorry, this is in violation of my conscience, offensive to my sensibilities, and contrary to the demands of justice.

When a child is sexually abused and crying "please stop, you are hurting me!"   The "born again" perpetrator, can rightfully reply (according to your theology), "don't worry, God is with me, and Jesus is in my soul, what I do to you is no sin."  "I am perfect in Christ and Christ in me."   Then walk away guilt free, with a clear conscience, as a child of God without spot, sin, or guilt?  How is this not repulsive theology?  Where is justice?  Where is accountability?  Where is God in this?  I could not worship a God that freely let men abuse children without accountability.  Was this child also a "free gift" from God to abuse?  Because that's what it sounds like.    

God does not reside in the temple of those who offend the spirit and abuse little children.  

Quote

 

Galatians 5:

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Easy?  Absolutely!  I didn't have to do anything because Jesus did it ALL for me just like He said he would.  Eternal life is a gift friends, not the reward of worthy behavior...................................

Why then does Jesus repeatedly declare that we will be judged by our works?  His brother James says the same thing.

[The Nehor]

Is this some weird attempt at preaching using a bastardized watered-down version of the Socratic Method with extra helpings of condescension?