Gray Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Thank you for the fact checking and the apology. Thanks for understanding.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 36 minutes ago, california boy said: Never mind. Mormons want to exclude gays from the joys of family and having a spouse, then so be it. It is not us, it is God. Someone born with a serious physical disability or a psychiatric disorder cannot get married. Someone who is attracted to objects cannot get married in the church, objectophilia is a sexual orientation. A psychology article says, "In a 2010 issue of the Internet Journal of Human Sexuality, clinical sexologist Dr. Amy Marsh described what she claims is the first ever research study conducted on a group of 40 objectophiles of which 21 English-speaking participants shared their experiences. On US television, Marsh revealed that she supported OS as a legitimate sexual orientation. Her research doesn’t appear to indicate childhood trauma being a factor in the development of OS. She stated there would be far more objectophiles if this was the case". If self conscious artificial intelligence becomes a reality many humans are going to be romantically attracted to intelligent computers. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/16/japan.virtual.wedding/index.html God allows many to have object attraction. God allows physical disability to happen. So please, it is God, not us. Do you have a problem with God?
ALarson Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: It is not us, it is God. Someone born with a serious physical disability or a psychiatric disorder cannot get married. What a horribly offensive post. First of all being born gay is not the same as having a "psychiatric disorder". And, many born with a "serious physical disability" are able to marry and find happiness. Same with many who have a "psychiatric disorder". Why would you state that they "cannot get married"? 3
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, ALarson said: What a horribly offensive post. First of all being born gay is not the same as having a "psychiatric disorder". and what a horrible offensive misrepresentation, again! I agree being gay is not a "psychiatric disorder", being gay is a sexual orientation, being straight is a sexual orientation too. What I said is that someone with a psychiatric disorder cannot get married. Same for someone with Down syndrome. My point is that not all of God's creations can get married. It is God, not us, that doesn't bless everyone in this life with a spouse. You badly misrepresented me a week ago, don't do it again! I have a question, if artificial intelligence becomes self-aware would you support humans marrying intelligent computers? or androids? 41 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: A psychology article says, "In a 2010 issue of the Internet Journal of Human Sexuality, clinical sexologist Dr. Amy Marsh described what she claims is the first ever research study conducted on a group of 40 objectophiles of which 21 English-speaking participants shared their experiences. On US television, Marsh revealed that she supported OS as a legitimate sexual orientation. Her research doesn’t appear to indicate childhood trauma being a factor in the development of OS. She stated there would be far more objectophiles if this was the case". If self conscious artificial intelligence becomes a reality many humans are going to be romantically attracted to intelligent computers. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/16/japan.virtual.wedding/index.html God allows many to have object attraction. God allows physical disability to happen. So please, it is God, not us. Do you have a problem with God? Edited August 28, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 How can I report a specific post? I am running out of patience. False accusations are never nice.
ALarson Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: How can I report a specific post? I am running out of patience. False accusations are never nice. Click on the "report post" at the top right. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 Just now, ALarson said: Click on the "report post" at the top right. I will next time. Let's have a conversation, not a character assassination
Guest Posted August 28, 2017 Posted August 28, 2017 28 minutes ago, california boy said: Never mind. Mormons want to exclude gays from the joys of family and having a spouse, then so be it. So despite everything about my life and what I value, and as wrong as I feel this is to tell ANYONE that they are unworthy of marriage, I just have to come to grips that Mormons think that is a perfectly acceptable position to have. I just pray that every gay Mormon growing up will come to the realization that they can have a happy and productive life, filled with joy and with all the blessings that marriage gives everyone. It just has to happen outside the Mormon church. Because Mormons will always believe that simply because you are gay, you are not worthy of the blessings of marriage. Please don't do this, you know that I am not suggesting that I or anyone else does not care about you or your feelings. I assure you that this is not the case. I was only trying to answer the questions that you asked of me. This "is not" a Mormon issue, these scriptures I quoted in their context were not pinned by Joseph Smith or any other Prophet or Apostle. If you believe that that Eternal Marriage is just a Mormon Doctrine , written from the mind of Mormon Apostles, then what is anyone being excluded from a hoax? If that be the case why would anyone care, if you or I believed it was man made, I would not care, I would walk away. "Everything" about you is not wrong, not a waste, you just as everyone are not defined by a single issue, and you deserve to be happy. While some may wish to put you in a little box and label you so they can dismiss you, does not mean you should allow it or give into it out of anger. You are allowed by law to marry, and I cannot speak for God. If the Church or scriptures are in error, then God will do what is right. If it is his will, you will receive all the blessings due to any other. We already live in a world where people believe that all one needs to do is "believe" and it matters not if they obey God's law to receive all his blessings. We believe that there is a different standard for greater rewards. We also believe that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind, saving all from death and hell. But that is different from additional reward or Eternal reward. We are told in the scripture that by the power of the Holy Ghost "we shall know the truth of all things", and that "the truth will set us free". But it seems clear that we should embrace truth, no matter the cost. But CA, I and others do care about how you feel, as I care about those in my own family whom I love. I was only answering your questions because you assured me that you value my opinion. Was I in error? For some leaving the Church may be what is required (I started to say necessary) for them to feel, or be happy. There are people who struggle in the Church with every commandment or behavior who lament that they are excluded because the standards of the Temple are just too difficult. I have someone so close to me, that I would give my life, who feels that he just can't be a one woman man. He tells me, he is different, that God must have made him that way, who lost his membership. My own biological father could not obey the laws of chastity, and ended up losing his first family (my mother and three children) and ended up in prison for non-child support and bigamy. As he used to weep to my Papa, that God just made him differently. Since he was not ever LDS, it was not polygamy. But when polygamy ended, many thought they just could live by God's or the Church's commandments and left too. Believing this is the only way they could be happy. The entire point of sacrifice is that we are willing to lay all upon the altar, for our God who suffered for all. Just as King Lamoni, prayed..."I will give away all my sins to know Thee". Sometimes that all, is not even sin as the world sees it, but tithing "where we have robbed God". I cannot begin to list the many ways I tried to rationalize this commandment. What about Word of Wisdom issues, will God send me to hell over a simple cup of coffee, or a drink...no. I speak of the literal hell here. But compliance with this is one of many requirements for a Temple Recommend. I have been with missionaries many times where someone would say, "you know I can do any other those things, but I can't give up my coffee", we would laugh...only to find out it was no joke! For the first eight years of my marriage, I was in the military where their were long absences from my wife. There were many times where everyone would go out to bars, pick up women, etc. Sometimes I would have guys "friends" say, "why don't I ever see you with a woman"? My reply would be, you see me with a woman all the time; "my wife". But that wasn't enough for them, but it was for me. I was not even LDS, growing up, but I have never been but with one woman in my 60 years, my wife. Kids at school would kid me, ask if I was Gay, and my brothers and my friends would put them in their place. Not for the Gay question, but because I was "true believer", not only of God, but because of my bio-father a line I would never cross. Anyway, I am rambling, if you believe that I am just trying to harm you or make you feel badly then, I will let it be. May the Lord bless and keep you my brother. 1
The Nehor Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: and what a horrible offensive misrepresentation, again! I agree being gay is not a "psychiatric disorder", being gay is a sexual orientation, being straight is a sexual orientation too. What I said is that someone with a psychiatric disorder cannot get married. Same for someone with Down syndrome. My point is that not all of God's creations can get married. It is God, not us, that doesn't bless everyone in this life with a spouse. You badly misrepresented me a week ago, don't do it again! I have a question, if artificial intelligence becomes self-aware would you support humans marrying intelligent computers? or androids? 2
california boy Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 6 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Please don't do this, you know that I am not suggesting that I or anyone else does not care about you or your feelings. I assure you that this is not the case. I was only trying to answer the questions that you asked of me. This "is not" a Mormon issue, these scriptures I quoted in their context were not pinned by Joseph Smith or any other Prophet or Apostle. If you believe that that Eternal Marriage is just a Mormon Doctrine , written from the mind of Mormon Apostles, then what is anyone being excluded from a hoax? If that be the case why would anyone care, if you or I believed it was man made, I would not care, I would walk away. "Everything" about you is not wrong, not a waste, you just as everyone are not defined by a single issue, and you deserve to be happy. While some may wish to put you in a little box and label you so they can dismiss you, does not mean you should allow it or give into it out of anger. You are allowed by law to marry, and I cannot speak for God. If the Church or scriptures are in error, then God will do what is right. If it is his will, you will receive all the blessings due to any other. We already live in a world where people believe that all one needs to do is "believe" and it matters not if they obey God's law to receive all his blessings. We believe that there is a different standard for greater rewards. We also believe that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind, saving all from death and hell. But that is different from additional reward or Eternal reward. We are told in the scripture that by the power of the Holy Ghost "we shall know the truth of all things", and that "the truth will set us free". But it seems clear that we should embrace truth, no matter the cost. But CA, I and others do care about how you feel, as I care about those in my own family whom I love. I was only answering your questions because you assured me that you value my opinion. Was I in error? For some leaving the Church may be what is required (I started to say necessary) for them to feel, or be happy. There are people who struggle in the Church with every commandment or behavior who lament that they are excluded because the standards of the Temple are just too difficult. I have someone so close to me, that I would give my life, who feels that he just can't be a one woman man. He tells me, he is different, that God must have made him that way, who lost his membership. My own biological father could not obey the laws of chastity, and ended up losing his first family (my mother and three children) and ended up in prison for non-child support and bigamy. As he used to weep to my Papa, that God just made him differently. Since he was not ever LDS, it was not polygamy. But when polygamy ended, many thought they just could live by God's or the Church's commandments and left too. Believing this is the only way they could be happy. The entire point of sacrifice is that we are willing to lay all upon the altar, for our God who suffered for all. Just as King Lamoni, prayed..."I will give away all my sins to know Thee". Sometimes that all, is not even sin as the world sees it, but tithing "where we have robbed God". I cannot begin to list the many ways I tried to rationalize this commandment. What about Word of Wisdom issues, will God send me to hell over a simple cup of coffee, or a drink...no. I speak of the literal hell here. But compliance with this is one of many requirements for a Temple Recommend. I have been with missionaries many times where someone would say, "you know I can do any other those things, but I can't give up my coffee", we would laugh...only to find out it was no joke! For the first eight years of my marriage, I was in the military where their were long absences from my wife. There were many times where everyone would go out to bars, pick up women, etc. Sometimes I would have guys "friends" say, "why don't I ever see you with a woman"? My reply would be, you see me with a woman all the time; "my wife". But that wasn't enough for them, but it was for me. I was not even LDS, growing up, but I have never been but with one woman in my 60 years, my wife. Kids at school would kid me, ask if I was Gay, and my brothers and my friends would put them in their place. Not for the Gay question, but because I was "true believer", not only of God, but because of my bio-father a line I would never cross. Anyway, I am rambling, if you believe that I am just trying to harm you or make you feel badly then, I will let it be. May the Lord bless and keep you my brother. I don't know what is worse. Knowing that the church thinks that just because I am gay I am unworthy of marriage. Or knowing that just because I am gay God thinks that I am unworthy of marriage. Your military story only emphasizes how important your wife and your marriage is to you. Finding someone to love and cherish is a big deal to humans and center to our lives here on earth. Paying tithing, drinking coffee, not so much. Yeah I know the company line. Being gay is a tough road. But what really is tough is knowing that the church or God thinks that because you are gay, you just don't deserve that joy and happiness. It is like being condemned for something that is completely not my fault. 1
california boy Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 7 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: It is not us, it is God. Someone born with a serious physical disability or a psychiatric disorder cannot get married. Someone who is attracted to objects cannot get married in the church, objectophilia is a sexual orientation. A psychology article says, "In a 2010 issue of the Internet Journal of Human Sexuality, clinical sexologist Dr. Amy Marsh described what she claims is the first ever research study conducted on a group of 40 objectophiles of which 21 English-speaking participants shared their experiences. On US television, Marsh revealed that she supported OS as a legitimate sexual orientation. Her research doesn’t appear to indicate childhood trauma being a factor in the development of OS. She stated there would be far more objectophiles if this was the case". If self conscious artificial intelligence becomes a reality many humans are going to be romantically attracted to intelligent computers. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/16/japan.virtual.wedding/index.htmlGod allows many to have object attraction. God allows physical disability to happen. So please, it is God, not us. Do you have a problem with God? Do you know what a CFR is? It means that you have to prove a statement you make or withdraw the statement. You can read more about ti in the board guidelines. So I am issuing you a CFR. Where does the church state that someone with a serious physical disability or a psychiatric disorder can not get married. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, california boy said: Do you know what a CFR is? It means that you have to prove a statement you make or withdraw the statement. You can read more about ti in the board guidelines. So I am issuing you a CFR. Where does the church state that someone with a serious physical disability or a psychiatric disorder can not get married. I just re-read his post, and I don't read him as claiming that the Church states this. Rather, I understood him to be noting that for some people, circumstances are such that marriage would be so infeasible as to place it outside the realm of possibility for them. You can argue against that, if you like, but I don't think he is attributing it to the Church, and I don't think he is obligated to answer a CFR for a claim he didn't make. I suppose StL can clarify if he chooses to. Edited August 29, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 15 hours ago, california boy said: Where does the church state that someone with a serious physical disability It is very difficult for someone born with a significant physical disability to find a spouse. It is God, not us. God knows that some won't have "joys of family and having a spouse". God created us the way we are. You need to ask God why not everyone has the "joys of family and having a spouse". 15 hours ago, california boy said: psychiatric disorder can not get married. "baptism is not required of people who are mentally incapable of knowing right and wrong (see Moroni 8:9–22)." https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-20-baptism?lang=eng I assume the same thing applies to Temple Marriage
JulieM Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 23 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: It is not us, it is God. Someone born with a serious physical disability or a psychiatric disorder cannot get married. This isn't true. Some may not be able to marry, but many do.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 1 hour ago, JulieM said: This isn't true. Some may not be able to marry, but many do. I am talking about the some that can't.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) Same for objectophilia (object attraction), in the eyes of God object marriage is never going to be accepted. Someone attracted to objects must not act of his or her feelings. I believe God creates us (all humans) the way we are to test us and make us strong. Edited August 29, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite
california boy Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I just re-read his post, and I don't read him as claiming that the Church states this. Rather, I understood him to be noting that for some people, circumstances are such that marriage would be so infeasible as to place it outside the realm of possibility for them. You can argue against that, if you like, but I don't think he is attributing it to the Church, and I don't think he is obligated to answer a CFR for a claim he didn't make. I suppose StL can clarify if he chooses to. 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: It is very difficult for someone born with a significant physical disability to find a spouse. It is God, not us. God knows that some won't have "joys of family and having a spouse". God created us the way we are. You need to ask God why not everyone has the "joys of family and having a spouse". "baptism is not required of people who are mentally incapable of knowing right and wrong (see Moroni 8:9–22)." https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-20-baptism?lang=eng I assume the same thing applies to Temple Marriage But the point is, someone born with physical disability CAN marry. The church doesn't call them apostates if they choose to marry.
ALarson Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Same for objectophilia (object attraction), in the eyes of God object marriage is never going to be accepted. Someone attracted to objects must not act of his or her feelings. I believe God creates us (all humans) the way we are to test us and make us strong. Well, maybe those who fall in love with a roller coaster or who want to have sex with a car are among the "some with psychiatric disorders who cannot marry"? I'm still not sure what any of that has to do with the fact that a gay person cannot marry the person they love from the same sex and not be considered an apostate by church leaders. Edited August 29, 2017 by ALarson
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, california boy said: But the point is, someone born with physical disability CAN marry. The church doesn't call them apostates if they choose to marry. but it is not the church, it is God. There is no evidence that the ancient Jews practiced homosexual marriage. How do you feel about Objectophilia? The Bible is silent on that too, you think someday General Authorities are going to allow object marriage in the church? Just because objectophilia is a sexual orientation doesn't object marriage is acceptable for God. Human can't control their feelings, but they can control their actions. Edited August 30, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, california boy said: But the point is, someone born with physical disability CAN marry. Not everyone, but God allows that. God knows some people won't be able to have a family. Edited August 30, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 22 minutes ago, ALarson said: I'm still not sure what any of that has to do with the fact that a gay person cannot marry the person they love from the same sex and not be considered an apostate by church leaders. Above please
california boy Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Not everyone, but God allows that. God knows some people won't be able to have a family. Oh really? Which physically disabled does God think are not worthy enough to marry and if they do the church labels them apostates?
SamuelTheLamanite Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, california boy said: Oh really? Which physically disabled does God think are not worthy enough to marry and if they do the church labels them apostates? I don't see much difference between the label apostasy and God creating humans that can't find a spouse. God knows not everyone can get married. I don't understand why you are so mad at the church, you have to ask God why he doesn't allow same sex marriage. I have a question, do you want the federal government to recognize and legalize object and android marriage ? marriage to 16 and 17 year olds? If not, why only gay marriage? Just curiosity. But like I said, just because God created human feelings doesn't the all marriages are acceptable in the eyes of God. Edited August 30, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite
carbon dioxide Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 On 8/29/2017 at 10:51 PM, california boy said: Oh really? Which physically disabled does God think are not worthy enough to marry and if they do the church labels them apostates? I don't label them apostates. I think the Church should just not recognize the marriages as being valid according to the standards of the gospel and view the relationships as if they are not married.
carbon dioxide Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 6 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: I have a question, do you want the federal government to recognize and legalize object and android marriage ? marriage to 16 and 17 year olds? If not, why only gay marriage? Just curiosity. In time I think the Federal government will have to under equal protection. Just as few would have taken SSM seriously 30 years ago, things will be accepted 30 years from now that nobody takes seriously today. As the standards of society race to the bottom, there is no limit to what will be accepted over time. We laugh at something like this today But give it time and society will accept it. (That bride is not real for those that can't tell.)
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