Reading Doc and Covs

[stemelbow]

I was a teenage boy.  My dad was a different type and at times would invite a needy person to live in our house with us.  This was before the Elizabeth Smart days so being nice he didn't think much of the dangers, or felt that showing love would conquer the risk.  One such time a really creepy guy was staying with us.  I just didn't feel comfortable around him.  My older sisters were moved out, so I had my own room.  And that week or two that he was there, if I was home, I was locked in my bedroom, hiding out.  Long solitary hours gave me reason to read my scriptures.  At the time I was in Seminary and we were in the D&C and Church history year, so I started with the Doctrine and Covenants.  I read it in one night, straight through and really enjoyed it.  In fact, it got me to read on, as I read the standard works and decided at that time I'd go on a mission and live a life of a pious Mormon, if you will.  It was a turning point, in a way, for me.  So every once in a while I've decided to read that conglomeration of pieced together revelations anew, to commemorate that moment of change in my life. 

I've decided to take it slow this time and read it one section at a time, slowly and ponder a bit--perhaps a section a week or so depending on it's content and my time.  So I started that this morning--trying to see it afresh.  I might come here and share my thoughts as I do go along.  Thus the purpose of this thread.  Questions, comments and other thoughts are welcome.  Don't know if there will be usefulness or success, so if it dies it dies.

 

Section 1. 

Verse 2

Quote

For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

So how many escaped this voice of the Lord since this verse was spoken in 1831?  Many have passed in the past 186 years who have not as much of heard of the Church, no?  So what can we get from this verse? 

Verse 4 and 5

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And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

What does "none shall stay them" mean?  Has not any of his disciples been stayed?

Verse 9

Quote

Yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—

I worry now more than ever I don't know who the wicked might be, when mentioned in scripture.  If so, I wonder if that means I'm of the wicked.  If God will poor upon me His wrath?  Being human kind of sucks in light of this kind of talk because for all we know, we're the wicked who will be subject to God's wrath. No?

More fo the same in verse 14

Quote

And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.

I think we like to assume the righteous will be spared.  But if God's sword falls upon the inhabitants on the earth, I wonder how many righteous will also feel his wrath. 

vs 19

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The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

I like the "man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh" talk.  I really like the weak things breaking down the mighty and strong ones.  But the mighty and strong ones remain strong to this day, it seems to me.  So I'm not sure if that is prophecy for the future or what?

vs 20

Quote

But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world

This passage tells me, we in the Church today are far from what God wants for us.  The Church is top down and the message is the messages of God come through man to us.  But scripture tells us it should not work that way.  Either maybe the Church has misled us, or we need to step up on a individual basis, not rely on messages from the men at the top and speak our truth loudly and proudly, no?

vs 29

Quote

And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.

It's kind weird this speaks of Joseph might having power to translate, when the Book of Mormon is already published by the time Joseph is speaking these words in Conference 1831.

vs 30

Quote

And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Was the foundation yet to be laid for the Church?  I know it was still small sitting in obscurity and darkness.  Do we feel like it is out of obscurity and darkness now?  Do we have a ways to go?  It feels like it to me.

vs 33

Quote

And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

I don't know why this comes off as very preachy, 19 Century American to me, but it does.  So, it makes me wonder.  Don't we all sin to some level daily?  Isn't it likely that each us fails to repent of some sin each day?  What is it like to have light taken from us?  What does that mean?

vs 35

Quote

For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.

If God will have all men know it, then when is it all men will know the day speedily cometh when peace shall be taken from the earth?  What does that mean?  Is it gone now?

 

[RevTestament]

51 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I was a teenage boy.  My dad was a different type and at times would invite a needy person to live in our house with us.  This was before the Elizabeth Smart days so being nice he didn't think much of the dangers, or felt that showing love would conquer the risk.  One such time a really creepy guy was staying with us.  I just didn't feel comfortable around him.  My older sisters were moved out, so I had my own room.  And that week or two that he was there, if I was home, I was locked in my bedroom, hiding out.  Long solitary hours gave me reason to read my scriptures.  At the time I was in Seminary and we were in the D&C and Church history year, so I started with the Doctrine and Covenants.  I read it in one night, straight through and really enjoyed it.  In fact, it got me to read on, as I read the standard works and decided at that time I'd go on a mission and live a life of a pious Mormon, if you will.  It was a turning point, in a way, for me.  So every once in a while I've decided to read that conglomeration of pieced together revelations anew, to commemorate that moment of change in my life. 

I've decided to take it slow this time and read it one section at a time, slowly and ponder a bit--perhaps a section a week or so depending on it's content and my time.  So I started that this morning--trying to see it afresh.  I might come here and share my thoughts as I do go along.  Thus the purpose of this thread.  Questions, comments and other thoughts are welcome.  Don't know if there will be usefulness or success, so if it dies it dies.

 

Section 1. 

Verse 2

So how many escaped this voice of the Lord since this verse was spoken in 1831?  Many have passed in the past 186 years who have not as much of heard of the Church, no?  So what can we get from this verse? 

I read D&C in its entirety when I reactivated in the Church - this was after reading the BoM in its entirety and receiving confirmation of its truth. I was surprised how much I enjoyed reading D&C. It opens up the NT further and helped me to understand the doctrines of the Church. Every member really needs to read them - and not just rely on the Sunday School lessons to teach them.

The first half of the millennium is when the stone will fill the whole earth. So no, not everyone has heard the voice of the Lord. What we can get from this verse is that it is not fulfilled.

Quote

Verse 9

I worry now more than ever I don't know who the wicked might be, when mentioned in scripture.  If so, I wonder if that means I'm of the wicked.  If God will poor upon me His wrath?  Being human kind of sucks in light of this kind of talk because for all we know, we're the wicked who will be subject to God's wrath. No?

I think you know if you have things to repent of. If you do, then that is what you need to worry about. Otherwise, don't worry and just do your best to follow Yeshua.

Quote

More fo the same in verse 14

I think we like to assume the righteous will be spared.  But if God's sword falls upon the inhabitants on the earth, I wonder how many righteous will also feel his wrath. 

No righteous will fell His wrath. Some may be killed, but that is because of the works of Satan and not of God. God has promised that the righteous will be spared from the plagues.

Quote

vs 19

I like the "man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh" talk.  I really like the weak things breaking down the mighty and strong ones.  But the mighty and strong ones remain strong to this day, it seems to me.  So I'm not sure if that is prophecy for the future or what?

The strong of the Lord are the weak of the earth. The world views them as weaklings - gullible, etc. The world does not value them. Here is an example: 

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailingand gnashing of teeth.

Not even the Church values this principle, but derides the concept as people being "ark-steadiers." 

Quote

vs 20

This passage tells me, we in the Church today are far from what God wants for us.  The Church is top down and the message is the messages of God come through man to us.  But scripture tells us it should not work that way.  Either maybe the Church has misled us, or we need to step up on a individual basis, not rely on messages from the men at the top and speak our truth loudly and proudly, no?

Kind of ironic that the Church teaches the scriptures are for all men to interpret through the gift of the Holy Ghost and then claims the presidency is the only ones who can interpret them...I must say I have some agreement here for no scripture is of any private interpretation. What the presidency says should be considered prayerfully.

Quote

vs 33

I don't know why this comes off as very preachy, 19 Century American to me, but it does.  So, it makes me wonder.  Don't we all sin to some level daily?  Isn't it likely that each us fails to repent of some sin each day?  What is it like to have light taken from us?  What does that mean?

Because in this modern day men don't like being told they must repent. They are no longer used to it.

Quote

vs 35

If God will have all men know it, then when is it all men will know the day speedily cometh when peace shall be taken from the earth?  What does that mean?  Is it gone now?

It has begun, but the time cometh when peace shall only be found in the Church, and all others will be forced to adopt the sword to survive, unless they come to the New Jerusalem.

[Robert F. Smith]

Not sure that the stream of consciousness approach is the best.  You might want to be more selective -- finding the really significant items for comment.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

 

Just a few comments:

1.  The voice of God is directed towards everyone.  Nobody is excluded and nobody can claim immunity or God's truths do not apply to them.  When one looks at the spirit world being an extension of mortality, then this is how none should escape.  All shall eventually hear the voice of God and make a decision. 

2.  God's wrath falls upon the wicked.  The righteous may suffer some temporary negative effects from it.  For example the home of the righteous will be destroyed as those of the wicked in a great earthquake.  But to God is that really a big deal?  Even death means little to God.  We are all subject to death and it actually a part of the plan.  Whether a righteous man dies in an earthquake or other judgement God sends to punish the wicked or are killed in a drunk driving accident really does not matter.  To the righteous, being killed is a very quick thing and from that point forward it is only blessings.  To the wicked, being killed is just the beginning of their punishment.  It only gets worse for them after they die and they have to wait a long time before they get some sort of reward by a resurrection to a lower kingdom. 

3.  The weak will bring down the strong.  The strong are only strong for a short period of time but then they are brought low.  The "strong" are not humble.  They base their wisdom and power on their own pride and strength.  But even the strongest on the earth is incredibly weak to God.  The day will come when all truth will be revealed.  The wicked will now they were wrong and the righteous will know they were right.  When God give out the letter grades on this course of mortal life, the weak will get the A grades and the strong will come away with D and F grades.  The strong will walk away weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

4.  The passage is directed towards of those of this dispensation and is including the period when Joseph Smith was translating.  The whole restoration part from the First Vision onward is included.

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I read D&C in its entirety when I reactivated in the Church - this was after reading the BoM in its entirety and receiving confirmation of its truth. I was surprised how much I enjoyed reading D&C. It opens up the NT further and helped me to understand the doctrines of the Church. Every member really needs to read them - and not just rely on the Sunday School lessons to teach them.

The first half of the millennium is when the stone will fill the whole earth. So no, not everyone has heard the voice of the Lord. What we can get from this verse is that it is not fulfilled.

Kinda sad to think the second verse in the book was not fulfilled.

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I think you know if you have things to repent of. If you do, then that is what you need to worry about. Otherwise, don't worry and just do your best to follow Yeshua.

That's probably how we have to proceed, lest we sink into an abyss of guilt and pain, I guess. 

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

No righteous will fell His wrath. Some may be killed, but that is because of the works of Satan and not of God. God has promised that the righteous will be spared from the plagues.

Where?  I'm curious though, if God kills millions and Satan kills a few, who is worse? 

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The strong of the Lord are the weak of the earth. The world views them as weaklings - gullible, etc. The world does not value them. Here is an example: 

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailingand gnashing of teeth.

Not even the Church values this principle, but derides the concept as people being "ark-steadiers."

 

The Church these days values those that are strong, it seems to me.  So I'm not sure how this verse applies. 

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 

Kind of ironic that the Church teaches the scriptures are for all men to interpret through the gift of the Holy Ghost and then claims the presidency is the only ones who can interpret them...I must say I have some agreement here for no scripture is of any private interpretation. What the presidency says should be considered prayerfully.

This verse stood out to me most as I read this morning.  I think we are better off telling each other that any one of us speaks for God, not just some elite crew of men.  The well-ordered structure of the Church is problematic to me. 

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Because in this modern day men don't like being told they must repent. They are no longer used to it.

k

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It has begun, but the time cometh when peace shall only be found in the Church, and all others will be forced to adopt the sword to survive, unless they come to the New Jerusalem.

If you say so.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Just a few comments:

1.  The voice of God is directed towards everyone.  Nobody is excluded and nobody can claim immunity or God's truths do not apply to them.  When one looks at the spirit world being an extension of mortality, then this is how none should escape.  All shall eventually hear the voice of God and make a decision. 
 

If so, then the restoration was useless.  All men would be hearing the voice of God and need to make a decision whether restoration or not, it seems. 

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

 

2.  God's wrath falls upon the wicked.  The righteous may suffer some temporary negative effects from it.  For example the home of the righteous will be destroyed as those of the wicked in a great earthquake.  But to God is that really a big deal?  Even death means little to God.  We are all subject to death and it actually a part of the plan.  Whether a righteous man dies in an earthquake or other judgement God sends to punish the wicked or are killed in a drunk driving accident really does not matter.  To the righteous, being killed is a very quick thing and from that point forward it is only blessings.  To the wicked, being killed is just the beginning of their punishment.  It only gets worse for them after they die and they have to wait a long time before they get some sort of reward by a resurrection to a lower kingdom. 

I think you have the gist of what the Church thinks here. 

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

3.  The weak will bring down the strong.  The strong are only strong for a short period of time but then they are brought low.  The "strong" are not humble.  They base their wisdom and power on their own pride and strength.  But even the strongest on the earth is incredibly weak to God.  The day will come when all truth will be revealed.  The wicked will now they were wrong and the righteous will know they were right.  When God give out the letter grades on this course of mortal life, the weak will get the A grades and the strong will come away with D and F grades.  The strong will walk away weeping and gnashing of teeth. \

Man, I didn't think of it that way.  Compared to God we're all weak.  There is no strong.  Of coruse that disregards the context as it suggests there are strong humans on the earth. 

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

4.  The passage is directed towards of those of this dispensation and is including the period when Joseph Smith was translating.  The whole restoration part from the First Vision onward is included.

I see.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.  They certainly help.

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not sure that the stream of consciousness approach is the best.  You might want to be more selective -- finding the really significant items for comment.

Thanks.  Don't know that I intended it to come out this way, but man, I have a lot of questions after having considered the first section.  Couldn't stop myself.  But I'll take your advice into consideration going forward.  Hopefully it'll make for some interesting conversation and ideas shared.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I read it in one night, straight through and really enjoyed it.  In fact, it got me to read on, as I read the standard works and decided at that time I'd go on a mission and live a life of a pious Mormon, if you will.  It was a turning point, in a way, for me.  So every once in a while I've decided to read that conglomeration of pieced together revelations anew, to commemorate that moment of change in my life. 

I've decided to take it slow this time and read it one section at a time, slowly and ponder a bit--perhaps a section a week or so depending on it's content and my time.  So I started that this morning--trying to see it afresh.  

I think that is great that you are doing that.  What was it about the D&C that you enjoyed as a youth?  It sounds like it really impacted you in a significant and life-changing way.  In an effort to truly "commemorate" that moment of change in your life, might I suggest that you give a real and genuine effort to read it with the same eyes and heart that you read it with in your youth.  In other words, let it impact you again for good.

[stemelbow]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think that is great that you are doing that.  What was it about the D&C that you enjoyed as a youth?  It sounds like it really impacted you in a significant and life-changing way.  

I was seeking purpose in my life.  I didn't see value in turning into a robotic creature vested in making money on the backs of others type of stuff.  So when I read it, I was more easily put into a place where the purpose was to build the kingdom, for the coming of the Lord is nigh at hand and all that.  I remember thinking in my head after finishing, "if the Book of Mormon is half this good, then I want to know it".  So I read it next.  It took me a couple more days shut in my room to finish it, but I did.  And it was impactful too as I searched for direction. 

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

In an effort to truly "commemorate" that moment of change in your life, might I suggest that you give a real and genuine effort to read it with the same eyes and heart that you read it with in your youth.  In other words, let it impact you again for good.

Suggest away.  I've tried.  It's really difficult.  My mind sees things differently now.  I'm more prone to catch things I didn't catch, and perhaps miss things I would not have missed back then.  This slow approach will hopefully give me a better full service feel. 

[Guest]

Stem...

Often we tend to take so things of scripture so literally, that we miss the mark. It is important to remember that the revelations given in the D&C are to both the living and the dead. This dispensation not only ushered in the restored Gospel, but also the Gospel to be preached "unto them that are dead also" (1 Peter, 3:16-18, and 4: 6, hope I got those correctly), "that they might hear according to men in the flesh, and be judged according to men in the Spirit". (Again I hope I quoted it correctly). With God, it does not matter when men and women hear the Gospel, all the better to hear and accept it in this life, but what matters is that all hear it before the final judgement. In so doing, only then can all be judged righteously. As for more, my back can only endure typing shorter points, and could endure every point...I will leave that to others. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I was a teenage boy.  My dad was a different type and at times would invite a needy person to live in our house with us.  This was before the Elizabeth Smart days so being nice he didn't think much of the dangers, or felt that showing love would conquer the risk.  One such time a really creepy guy was staying with us.  I just didn't feel comfortable around him.  My older sisters were moved out, so I had my own room.  And that week or two that he was there, if I was home, I was locked in my bedroom, hiding out.  Long solitary hours gave me reason to read my scriptures.  At the time I was in Seminary and we were in the D&C and Church history year, so I started with the Doctrine and Covenants.  I read it in one night, straight through and really enjoyed it.  In fact, it got me to read on, as I read the standard works and decided at that time I'd go on a mission and live a life of a pious Mormon, if you will.  It was a turning point, in a way, for me.  So every once in a while I've decided to read that conglomeration of pieced together revelations anew, to commemorate that moment of change in my life. 

I've decided to take it slow this time and read it one section at a time, slowly and ponder a bit--perhaps a section a week or so depending on it's content and my time.  So I started that this morning--trying to see it afresh.  I might come here and share my thoughts as I do go along.  Thus the purpose of this thread.  Questions, comments and other thoughts are welcome.  Don't know if there will be usefulness or success, so if it dies it dies.

 

I posted something else concerning this, but your words than I address now is on a more personal note. Reading any book of scripture is never a bad idea, and always a great idea. Usually whatever book of scripture I am reading, when I resolve to read all the way through becomes my favorite. As for the Book of Mormon, the first one I received, my reaction was immediate. I had a powerful experience just from taking it from a friend, and that night, I had to be up all night on duty (I was in the Army, living in Germany) I read the first five books of the BoM and all five of the pamphlets that I was given. I was converted that very night, at least when it came to the knowing that it was of God. When I returned home from a temporary duty assignment where I was serving, I asked my wife for everything ever published by the Church. Little did I know, what I was asking for! Upon reading the Doctrine and Convenats, I began to see the calling of the Prophet, the Spirit that prompted him, and the mission of his calling. The beauty of the doctrines of the Church, the poetry and fluidity of the words revealed unto him by God. As you noted these words were the words that inspired me to a mission, not in the traditional sense, as I was already married with children. But the mission to learn all I could, to teach all that I had learned, and then to live it, all that I could. Thank you for your post, and the reminder of those feelings, now numbering 38+, and the joy it has brought me, and my family...now three generations. 

[Avatar4321]

Quote

IF so, then the restoration was useless.  All men would be hearing the voice of God and need to make a decision whether restoration or not, it seems. 

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning here. Without the restoration there would be no work for the dead. 

The redemption of the dead requires authorized servants of the Lord:

1) dying to preach to the dead

2) finding the names of the dead

3) performing the necessary sealing ordinances on behalf of to dead.

While there may be some authorized servants remaining in the spirit world from previous dispensations the numbers would be small, making the work difficult to begin with. But without the Restoration of the priesthood, Keys, and the building of Holy Temples in our dispensation the need to find our kindred dead would be unknown and nonvicarious ordinances could be performed. Without the Restoration there is no Redemption for the dead. As Malachi put it the world would be "utterly wasted at His coming."

 

On a side note: Are you praying when you study and asking the Lord in faith what each passage means?

[Avatar4321]

I hope you don't mind me sharing a little about myself. It was the study of the Doctrine and Covenants that gave me my testimony. My first semester at BYU I began to be curious about whether the gospel was actually true. I started reading everything I could for and against. And I liked what I was taught but I had a lot of questions. I remember it being October. I watches general conference seriously for the first time and I was spiritually uplifted. And a few weeks later I was still pondering things when I came back from church and saw the scriptures on my bed and a thought occurred to me to read the D&C. It was the volume I was least familiar with because during seminary we did the Book of Mormon a second time instead of the D&C.

Interestingly I started reading the last few sections and the official declarations first. Not sure why but after that I started over and I really couldn't put it down. I was reading every time I could. I felt the Spirit throughout but i didn't realize it until I reached section 135. The experience I had when I read that made it obvious that it was true.

That experience changed my life. Good luck with your reading. Keep reading and keep praying and the Lord may surprise you