LittleNipper Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, RevTestament said: This kind of absolute interpretation is silly - typical Greek linear interpretation. Strike one. Obviously He didn't create the Father, nor His own spirit. Strike two. Genesis doesn't say God created the earth from nothing, but the earth was created by God moving His Spirit upon the waters. Strike three. Protestant ultra-literal interpretation is OUT. You can bold letters all you want, but it won't change what was originally intended when written, and nowhere is the concept of time discussed as something created by God. God always existed and so He didn't create Himself. The Bible isn't typical in any sense of the word --- Greek or otherwise. The Bible is obviously speaking in terms of EVERYTHING else aside from the triune GOD the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient creator of ALL. God created the waters as He created all the elements and H2O is but one of many. Interpretation is from the Spirit and not of the individual. My use of bold lettering merely is pointing out the obvious that you seem to ignore. The Bible starts. "In the beginning GOD CREATED the Heavens and the earth." What do the heavens have in common ---- space. What is earth --- matter. God is the beginning and the ending ---- The Alpha and the Omega. In other words -- all time. God knows what you are going to do before you even do it! How? Because His presence and mind exist in the past, present and future all at the very same moment. A day is but a moment to GOD and yesterday is but today tomorrow. God referenced Himself as "I AM". Before Abraham was I AM. You seem to want to define GOD in terms of humanity and humanly speaking that is impossible. Edited July 9, 2017 by LittleNipper Link to comment
RevTestament Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 23 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: God always existed and so He didn't create Himself. The Bible isn't typical in any sense of the word --- Greek or otherwise. The Bible is obviously speaking in terms of EVERYTHING else aside from the triune GOD the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient creator of ALL. God created the waters as He created all the elements and H2O is but one of many. Interpretation is from the Spirit and not of the individual. My use of bold lettering merely is pointing out the obvious that you seem to ignore. The Bible starts. "In the beginning GOD CREATED the Heavens and the earth." What do the heavens have in common ---- space. What is earth --- matter. God is the beginning and the ending ---- The Alpha and the Omega. In other words -- all time. God knows what you are going to do before you even do it! How? Because His presence and mind exist in the past, present and future all at the very same moment. A day is but a moment to GOD and yesterday is but today tomorrow. God referenced Himself as "I AM". Before Abraham was I AM. You seem to want to define GOD in terms of humanity and humanly speaking that is impossible. Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. Strike four. Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 Please consider this. The Biblical interpretation of God is far different than the Mormon interpretation: http://www.angelfire.com/in/HisName/creator.html Link to comment
RevTestament Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 30 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: God always existed and so He didn't create Himself. The Bible isn't typical in any sense of the word --- Greek or otherwise. The Bible is obviously speaking in terms of EVERYTHING else aside from the triune GOD the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient creator of ALL. God created the waters as He created all the elements and H2O is but one of many. Interpretation is from the Spirit and not of the individual. My use of bold lettering merely is pointing out the obvious that you seem to ignore. The Bible starts. "In the beginning GOD CREATED the Heavens and the earth." What do the heavens have in common ---- space. What is earth --- matter. God is the beginning and the ending ---- The Alpha and the Omega. In other words -- all time. God knows what you are going to do before you even do it! How? Because His presence and mind exist in the past, present and future all at the very same moment. A day is but a moment to GOD and yesterday is but today tomorrow. God referenced Himself as "I AM". Before Abraham was I AM. You seem to want to define GOD in terms of humanity and humanly speaking that is impossible. When God gets specific about how He created the earth, it was by moving His Spirit across uncreated waters - by organizing matter already in existence. There is no denying that from Genesis. Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, RevTestament said: When God gets specific about how He created the earth, it was by moving His Spirit across uncreated waters - by organizing matter already in existence. There is no denying that from Genesis. The first thing that GOD does is Create Space, Time and Matter (the building blocks) and then He hovers over the water HE created. Bereshis (Genesis) 1-2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) 1 In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth). (1st step --- beginning/time, heaven/space, earth/matter) 2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters. 3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light Why would you insist on designing GOD as less than what HE is ----- ALMIGHTY! Edited July 9, 2017 by LittleNipper Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 9 hours ago, RevTestament said: Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. Strike four. Christ became man and as such accepted man's limitations but not man's imperfections/fallen nature. Christ emptied HIMSELF and as such then depended on His Father for instruction and guidance --- as HE also instructed believers to be. Jesus is both humanity and Divine so HE could die in our place and that we might be saved who trust in Christ. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 12 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Please consider this. The Biblical interpretation of God is far different than the Mormon interpretation: http://www.angelfire.com/in/HisName/creator.html No. Your interpretation of the Bible is at odds with our interpretation of the Bible. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Christ became man and as such accepted man's limitations but not man's imperfections/fallen nature. Christ emptied HIMSELF and as such then depended on His Father for instruction and guidance --- as HE also instructed believers to be. Jesus is both humanity and Divine so HE could die in our place and that we might be saved who trust in Christ. No one here is denying the Divinity of Christ. Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 17 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Please consider this. The Biblical interpretation of God is far different than the Mormon interpretation: http://www.angelfire.com/in/HisName/creator.html Who decides the Biblical interpretation. For LDS, the "Mormon" interpretation is the Biblical interpretation. Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The first thing that GOD does is Create Space, Time and Matter (the building blocks) and then He hovers over the water HE created. Bereshis (Genesis) 1-2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) 1 In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth). (1st step --- beginning/time, heaven/space, earth/matter) 2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters. 3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light Why would you insist on designing GOD as less than what HE is ----- ALMIGHTY! Yes God is Almighty but that does no mean we just make up stuff that is not there because God is almighty. Nowhere does it say God created time, space, and matter. Whether one believes God did that or not, the text itself does not say that. You are forcing that view into the scriptures than rather the scriptures declaring that plainly. God created the earth but nothing in their suggest methodology. There is nothing to suggest that God creates the earth any differently than I create chocolate chip cookies. I take preexisting ingredients and put them together in a certain formula to come up with something that would not have occurred without my help. Edited July 9, 2017 by carbon dioxide Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: No. Your interpretation of the Bible is at odds with our interpretation of the Bible. No, YOUR interpretation of the Bible is compromised by Mormon doctrine. Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Who decides the Biblical interpretation. For LDS, the "Mormon" interpretation is the Biblical interpretation. Only if you find that interpretation in and from the Holy Bible. Edited July 10, 2017 by LittleNipper Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Yes God is Almighty but that does no mean we just make up stuff that is not there because God is almighty. Nowhere does it say God created time, space, and matter. Whether one believes God did that or not, the text itself does not say that. You are forcing that view into the scriptures than rather the scriptures declaring that plainly. God created the earth but nothing in their suggest methodology. There is nothing to suggest that God creates the earth any differently than I create chocolate chip cookies. I take preexisting ingredients and put them together in a certain formula to come up with something that would not have occurred without my help. Then YOU do not believe GOD is GOD. You believe GOD was a man born on some planet who became GOD by being good and now wants YOU to be a GOD just like HIM. You believe that you are His spirit child and that GOD has a birthing wife. You as a Mormon clearly have no idea of what or who GOD is. I don't want to turn you away from GOD, but I'd like to introduce you to a far superior God than you have come to accept. GOD created everything and man will never be able to accomplish that feat. But man can worship GOD and be loved by GOD and choose to live with GOD forever. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7) This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9) The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2) To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25) Edited July 10, 2017 by LittleNipper Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) On 7/7/2017 at 8:44 PM, RevTestament said: The Alpha and Omega of this World, yep. The beginning and the end. However, He was begotten within time - "this DAY, I have begotten thee" as the scriptures declare. Neither do the scriptures teach that He created time. He created all things means in terms of physcial stuff we see. But JS brought meaning to that as well - it means organized rather than created from nothing. That is fine. I don't mean to offend. We will just have to disagree I guess - cheers. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9) The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2) 8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: No. Your interpretation of the Bible is at odds with our interpretation of the Bible. Where is the Holy Spirit in your interpretation. Do you even believe the Holy Spirit is One with the Triune GOD.--- Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Who is at odds again? Nehemiah 9:6 "You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. Isaiah 66:2 "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. Ephesians 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; Revelation 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens Edited July 10, 2017 by LittleNipper Link to comment
RevTestament Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, LittleNipper said: This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9) The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2) Picking and choosing translations now are we? I choose KJV 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, May I add that you are not helping your case. This scripture is Strike 5. God had this all planned before this world began, because He knew us already as He told Jeremiah, "I knew thee before I formed thee in the belly." Jeremiah was foreordained as a prophet before He was born. Why? Because he was one of the chosen 144,000 of Rev 7 - chosen to be God's prophets before the world began. How can God do this if He is no respecter of persons? Edited July 10, 2017 by RevTestament Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On 7/6/2017 at 1:30 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: As I have grown older, I have found their is much more wisdom in listening than speaking. If everyone listened, who would do the speaking? Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, RevTestament said: Picking and choosing translations now are we? I choose KJV 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, May I add that you are not helping your case. This scripture is Strike 5. God had this all planned before this world began, because He knew us already as He told Jeremiah, "I knew thee before I formed thee in the belly." Jeremiah was foreordained as a prophet before He was born. Why? Because he was one of the chosen 144,000 of Rev 7 - chosen to be God's prophets before the world began. How can God do this if He is no respecter of persons? Though the Old King James is a very good translation, it is contemporary to an Elizabethan understanding of terminology. A Jewish Orthodox translation would put it this way: Titos 1 Orthodox Jewish Bible 2 The mekor (basis) of this is a tikvah of Chayyei Olam which Hashem Who cannot speak sheker [BAMIDBAR 24:19; SHMUEL ALEF 15:29] promised before the Yamim HaOlam (days of eternity). I believe you are playing a Mormon game and not according to Christian rules. In other words, before time itself. And that would make my God, Lord, and Savior far superior to some former man bound by some preexisting format. My GOD created every atom, every molecule, everything and He preconceived the total outcome before HE started the pendulum in motion. And this was all formulated by ONE GOD comprised of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is biblically supported --- I'm no genius but I am a Saint. Edited July 10, 2017 by LittleNipper Link to comment
RevTestament Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Though the Old King James is a very good translation, it is contemporary to an Elizabethan understanding of terminology. A Jewish Orthodox translation would put it this way: Titos 1 Orthodox Jewish Bible 2 The mekor (basis) of this is a tikvah of Chayyei Olam which Hashem Who cannot speak sheker [BAMIDBAR 24:19; SHMUEL ALEF 15:29] promised before the Yamim HaOlam (days of eternity). I believe you are playing a Mormon game and not according to Christian rules. In other words, before time itself. And that would make my God, Lord, and Savior far superior to some former man bound by some preexisting format. My GOD created every atom, every molecule, everything and He preconceived the total outcome before HE started the pendulum in motion. And this was all formulated by ONE GOD comprised of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is biblically supported --- I'm no genius but I am a Saint. Sorry friend but you are not a saint but a victim of neoplatonist ideas who insists on imposing them onto the text. Converting Galilean Aramaic into Greek then into Hebrew and back into English is the epitome of desperation and ridiculousness. The Greek is a more precise language than the Galilean Aramaic was, and we have little or no evidence that Timothy was even written in Aramaic rather than Greek in the first place, so converting the Greek back into Hebrew to try to make a linguistic point isn't done by any scholars that I know of. You are not defending scripture but just early Greek Christian neoplatonism.... which insists the scriptures in Exodus for example are wrong since it claims Heavenly Father is a spirit who cannot be seen, and therefore has no reason to tell Moses that if he saw Him he would die. Abandon all those neoplatonist perversions and read the text for what it says. Why would an invisible God tell Moses he could not see Him or he would die? Link to comment
RevTestament Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: If everyone listened, who would do the speaking? Me..of course... Link to comment
HappyJackWagon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On 7/6/2017 at 2:55 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: When do any of you feel imposed upon? When MUST we make a stand? How do we find balance between "Preaching and Teaching"? Ye Southerners will understand the difference in the two. I'm reminded of a semi-recent example from my life. After the SSM became legal nationwide I made some fairly innocuous posts on FB expressing my appreciation for this change as a civil rights issue. When I saw gay friends post engagement photos I "liked" the posts and shared congratulatory words. These things were too much for many family members to take. Family councils were held amongst my grandparents/parents/aunts/uncles etc focused on my apostasy supporting SSM. In these councils it was decided that both grandparents and parents should write letters to me testifying of my apostasy. In these letters I was compared to anti-christs and 1/3 of the angels cast out of heaven. My family felt they must take a stand against my "false teachings" (ie- FB posts). They stated their purpose was to both testify but also so that their hands would be clean and so that other family members would not mistakenly think that they supported my evil beliefs about SSM. They sent the letter that was addressed to me to all of my siblings and extended family. They thought they were doing a good thing when really all they were doing was alienating me and pushing me further away from them and the church. IMO the family council and the letters were a terrible way to address the issue and I feel that they overreacted in a severe way. There is great damage to the relationship that may be healed some day...I hope. 1 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I'm reminded of a semi-recent example from my life. After the SSM became legal nationwide I made some fairly innocuous posts on FB expressing my appreciation for this change as a civil rights issue. When I saw gay friends post engagement photos I "liked" the posts and shared congratulatory words. These things were too much for many family members to take. Family councils were held amongst my grandparents/parents/aunts/uncles etc focused on my apostasy supporting SSM. In these councils it was decided that both grandparents and parents should write letters to me testifying of my apostasy. In these letters I was compared to anti-christs and 1/3 of the angels cast out of heaven. My family felt they must take a stand against my "false teachings" (ie- FB posts). They stated their purpose was to both testify but also so that their hands would be clean and so that other family members would not mistakenly think that they supported my evil beliefs about SSM. They sent the letter that was addressed to me to all of my siblings and extended family. They thought they were doing a good thing when really all they were doing was alienating me and pushing me further away from them and the church. IMO the family council and the letters were a terrible way to address the issue and I feel that they overreacted in a severe way. There is great damage to the relationship that may be healed some day...I hope. I am so sad about this. Good luck with this as far as relationships go. I so admire you and the courage it takes to listen to conscience and deal with your truths that are so relevant to you. I am so upset that you are dealing with this. Edited July 10, 2017 by Jeanne 1 Link to comment
Guest Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: If everyone listened, who would do the speaking? Wisdom, Spirit and Love. Of course someone must speak in order for others to listen. I guess what I meant is that before we speak, we should listen to the other person and the Holy Spirit. Also, "listening" is the same as "understanding". Link to comment
Guest Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Though the Old King James is a very good translation, I believe you are playing a Mormon game and not according to Christian rules. In other words, before time itself. And that would make my God, Lord, and Savior far superior to some former man bound by some preexisting format. We favor the KJV, as it is the version with which we are most familiar. It is not just a good translation, it is the translation by which the Protestant movement came into being. The KJV 1611, is the most sidle know to the world, it is unmatched in it's poetry of language. Also, we are not "playing Mormon games", and it saddens me that you would use this thread meant to address and find ways to speak respectfully to one another. We are Christians, no more, nor no less than those who seek to use the Bible (of any translation" as a hammer or weapon to inflict emotional harm to others. I am curious however to know how the topic of Ex Nilo got worked into this thread. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 17 hours ago, LittleNipper said: No, YOUR interpretation of the Bible is compromised by Mormon doctrine. Mormon doctrine is contained in the Standard Works of the Church. We use the King James Version of the Bible in English speaking countries. Link to comment
hagoth7 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 21 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: We favor the KJV, as it is the version with which we are most familiar. It is not just a good translation, it is the translation by which the Protestant movement came into being. The KJV 1611, is the most sidle know to the world, it is unmatched in it's poetry of language. Also, we are not "playing Mormon games", and it saddens me... Gotta step back in.,(hokey pokey), and "impose" a few quick comments. It isn't the King James Bible. Not even close. It's essentially the Tyndale Bible. Tyndale laid down his life (figuratively *and* literally) to hand us that Bible. King James appropriated the lion's share of Tyndale's work, scribbled out Tyndale's name, and stamped his own name on it. Or, more accurately, a learned committee hired out their services to appropriate Tyndale's work (rather than do much translating of their own) and to flatter the king and the world into thinking it was their/his work. (Try that level of theft in college today, and see what the result would be.) The King's hired staff then changed Jesus' brother's name from Jacob to James...to place his name in scriptures. Jacob 1:55. That is not meant as condemnation of the king. But as needed correction. Despite being flawed, God save the king/queen. An exiled Tyndale was betrayed for money on the day my mother gave me birth. His dying words at his execution the following year (1536), "Lord! Open the king of England's eyes!" King James' appropriation of Tyndale's work/sacrficie was following a long-and-not-so-glorious tradition. Three years after Tyndale's betrayal and murder, his king (Henry VIII) produced his own "Great" Bible, and quietly appropriated most of Tyndale's work. (As had previous English Bibles.) Whether Tyndale's widow or children/descendants saw any benefit from such appropriations...I'll leave that for others to consider/illuminate. What thank ye/we....Tyndale? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29.4?lang=eng#p3 2 Link to comment
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