Teancum Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Uh, Pygmalion vs My Fair Lady. I really have got to move on. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
hope_for_things Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Pretty sure Jesus was uneducated and illiterate as were the majority of Judean men of his day...particularly those coming from the countryside Here we go again, good luck Johnnie Cake, I've been shunned for my heretical statements. I wish you well.
Teancum Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 On 6/23/2017 at 2:16 PM, Bob Crockett said: Eusebius identifies a letter Jesus wrote. So?
USU78 Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Teancum said: So? So much more efficient to discount people's offerings discussing actual evidence than to engage that evidence. Saves bandwidth 1
USU78 Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Teancum said: I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You could ask 2
Johnnie Cake Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Here we go again, good luck Johnnie Cake, I've been shunned for my heretical statements. I wish you well. Again this is not a controversial statement...it is the commonly held position among Biblical scholars...there is no reason to be offended by this or consider it heretical...since it is the position of many informed, thoughtful and educated biblical scholars. It is not however the only worldview on Jesus...it is just one that a careful reading of the new testament would support...but I'm more than willing to be convinced otherwise...can you demonstrate anywhere in the N.T. where Jesus is known to actually read and write. There is one verse where he takes a stick and draws circles in the dirt...but I am unaware of any evidence of his actually reading from a book or writing on a piece of parchment or paper... Edit to add: being illiterate is not the same as being stupid....Jesus was not stupid...he was clearly a very intelligent human being...there just isn't any evidence of him actually being able to read or write....which would have been rare for his time in history. Edited June 28, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
RevTestament Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 25 minutes ago, Teancum said: New Testament writers and we now read back into OT passages something they never meant in order to confirm out bias. I suppose that is the modern skeptical way to look at it. Or one could actually believe that the OT elucidated the prophet prophesied to come: Deut 18:17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. D&C 77:12a We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things.
hope_for_things Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Again this is not a controversial statement...it is the commonly held position among Biblical scholars...there is no reason to be offended by this or consider it heretical...since it is the position of many informed, thoughtful and educated biblical scholars. It is not however the only worldview on Jesus...it is just one that a careful reading of the new testament would support...but I'm more than willing to be convinced otherwise...can you demonstrate anywhere in the N.T. where Jesus is known to actually read and write. There is one verse where he takes a stick and draws circles in the dirt...but I am unaware of any evidence of his actually reading from a book or writing on a piece of parchment or paper... Edit to add: being illiterate is not the same as being stupid....Jesus was not stupid...he was clearly a very intelligent human being...there just isn't any evidence of him actually being able to read or write....which would have been rare for his time in history. You're saying the same thing I was saying just a couple pages back, and I agree with your statements completely. The evidence some posters pointed to Jesus reading is in Luke 4 at the temple. I agree with you about what many biblical scholars think, but I got shot down for suggesting this by a few posters and told that my comments to this effect were essentially crazy talk. I'm wishing you good luck, because I'm hoping that you don't receive the same ridicule.
Calm Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 48 minutes ago, Teancum said: I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. My Fair Lady is a musical based on the play Pygmalion by Bernard Shaw iirc. Which was based on an Ancient Greek myth of an artist who despised women, but fell in love with the statue he created. He was so devoted his love was rewarded by the Goddess of Love with the statue coming to life. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: You're saying the same thing I was saying just a couple pages back, and I agree with your statements completely. The evidence some posters pointed to Jesus reading is in Luke 4 at the temple. I agree with you about what many biblical scholars think, but I got shot down for suggesting this by a few posters and told that my comments to this effect were essentially crazy talk. I'm wishing you good luck, because I'm hoping that you don't receive the same ridicule. Yeah Luke 4: 16-22 reads Quote 16 ¶ And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. However again there are many biblical scholars who believe that this was a post hoc addition to the bible not found in its earliest manuscripts. But Luke was written some 50-70 years after the death of Jesus...so really how reliable is this scriptural claim? Edited June 28, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
RevTestament Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Calm said: My Fair Lady is a musical based on the play Pygmalion by Bernard Shaw iirc. Which was based on an Ancient Greek myth of an artist who despised women, but fell in love with the statue he created. He was so devoted his love was rewarded by the Goddess of Love with the statue coming to life. 11 to go to the big 20K! Will it be today or tomorrow? P.S. oops now 10 to go! Edited June 28, 2017 by RevTestament
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 2 hours ago, USU78 said: Bwahahahaha . I'm thinking your approach to a philosophical justification for religion, specifically Restorationist religion, with maybe a pinch of Romantic dialectic, just might be massively important. Danke!
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Teancum said: I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Not my fault. Google it. That is how you learn things instead of being spoon fed. That is bad enough as it is. In the good old days we got to go to a library and smell the cellulose, now we have wackopedia. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Again this is not a controversial statement...it is the commonly held position among Biblical scholars...there is no reason to be offended by this or consider it heretical...since it is the position of many informed, thoughtful and educated biblical scholars. It is not however the only worldview on Jesus...it is just one that a careful reading of the new testament would support...but I'm more than willing to be convinced otherwise...can you demonstrate anywhere in the N.T. where Jesus is known to actually read and write. There is one verse where he takes a stick and draws circles in the dirt...but I am unaware of any evidence of his actually reading from a book or writing on a piece of parchment or paper... Edit to add: being illiterate is not the same as being stupid....Jesus was not stupid...he was clearly a very intelligent human being...there just isn't any evidence of him actually being able to read or write....which would have been rare for his time in history. LOL.
RevTestament Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 48 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: You're saying the same thing I was saying just a couple pages back, and I agree with your statements completely. The evidence some posters pointed to Jesus reading is in Luke 4 at the temple. I agree with you about what many biblical scholars think, but I got shot down for suggesting this by a few posters and told that my comments to this effect were essentially crazy talk. I'm wishing you good luck, because I'm hoping that you don't receive the same ridicule. Right back to the critical analysis... tut, tut. If anyone believes the NT, it is quite clear that Yeshua frequently refers to the OT. He knew the law. Either He absorbed it all orally from his bed time scripture reading stories or He was born with it implanted in His brain, or He must of read it for himself, or the NT is just making it all up in which case you aren't going to make a very good Christian. Clearly, He knew the scriptures better than the scribes because He somewhat regularly pulls stuff out of the Psalms, Deuteronomy, and other books to refute what the scribes and people believed at large. The NT says He opened the eyes of His followers to the scriptures so that their bosoms burned. This is simply not the doings of an illiterate man. You can pontificate all you want on how that goes against what scholars generally believe, but let me assure you, they are still wrong about many things in the scriptures.
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 2 hours ago, USU78 said: And here we are, back at JSJr, and poor Br Follett's funeral. I wish I knew enough Latin. Homo ludens is obvious ... but homo dei means "man of G-d," so how do we say "g-dly man?" What we need is an easily defensible, illuminating moniker for the man whom G-d has begotten. I have been using Man of Holiness but I am not completely satisfied with it. I have tried Ideal Man on the more secular side but that is a little too .... clinical? Then the ever popular Son of Man. Dunno. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Again this is not a controversial statement...it is the commonly held position among Biblical scholars...there is no reason to be offended by this or consider it heretical...since it is the position of many informed, thoughtful and educated biblical scholars. It is not however the only worldview on Jesus...it is just one that a careful reading of the new testament would support...but I'm more than willing to be convinced otherwise...can you demonstrate anywhere in the N.T. where Jesus is known to actually read and write. There is one verse where he takes a stick and draws circles in the dirt...but I am unaware of any evidence of his actually reading from a book or writing on a piece of parchment or paper... Edit to add: being illiterate is not the same as being stupid....Jesus was not stupid...he was clearly a very intelligent human being...there just isn't any evidence of him actually being able to read or write....which would have been rare for his time in history. Some are even literate AND stupid. Read the dang thread before you post Edited June 28, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Calm said: My Fair Lady is a musical based on the play Pygmalion by Bernard Shaw iirc. Which was based on an Ancient Greek myth of an artist who despised women, but fell in love with the statue he created. He was so devoted his love was rewarded by the Goddess of Love with the statue coming to life. The point was it was the same paradigm told at least three different ways, the Greek way, GB Shaw and Lerner and Lowe. The common point was falling in love with your own creation. One story, many ways to tell it, John vs the Synoptic gospels. 2
USU78 Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I have been using Man of Holiness but I am not completely satisfied with it. I have tried Ideal Man on the more secular side but that is a little too .... clinical? Then the ever popular Son of Man. Dunno. The linguistic problem is that there is no verb form for "G-d." Homo sapiens is thinking man. Homo ludens is playing man. How does a man "g-d?" We are strangers in a strange land. Edited June 29, 2017 by USU78 1
hope_for_things Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: LOL. Warned you Johnnie, here comes the ridicule...
hope_for_things Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 48 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Right back to the critical analysis... tut, tut. If anyone believes the NT, it is quite clear that Yeshua frequently refers to the OT. He knew the law. Either He absorbed it all orally from his bed time scripture reading stories or He was born with it implanted in His brain, or He must of read it for himself, or the NT is just making it all up in which case you aren't going to make a very good Christian. Clearly, He knew the scriptures better than the scribes because He somewhat regularly pulls stuff out of the Psalms, Deuteronomy, and other books to refute what the scribes and people believed at large. The NT says He opened the eyes of His followers to the scriptures so that their bosoms burned. This is simply not the doings of an illiterate man. You can pontificate all you want on how that goes against what scholars generally believe, but let me assure you, they are still wrong about many things in the scriptures. I'd like to think we can learn from critical analysis. I did mention the gospels weren't written by eye witnesses and are literary works, not historical accounts earlier I believe. The authors of those gospels were constructing a narrative of Jesus as the anointed one and reading his story back into earlier OT texts. Pretty mainstream biblical scholarship, but there I go again....
Calm Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: 11 to go to the big 20K! Will it be today or tomorrow? P.S. oops now 10 to go! Wow, I phases out the last 5000, lol.
Calm Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The point was it was the same paradigm told at least three different ways, the Greek way, GB Shaw and Lerner and Lowe. The common point was falling in love with your own creation. One story, many ways to tell it, John vs the Synoptic gospels. Yep...nothing new since the Greeks. Edited June 29, 2017 by Calm 1
Johnnie Cake Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Some are even literate AND stupid. Read the dang thread before you post And some are even literate and stupid and assume that reading an entire thread before posting is done by anyone joining a long thread...
Johnnie Cake Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Warned you Johnnie, here comes the ridicule... Yup you did 😜 That's ok, I can handle their ridicule. It's like being picked on by your uncle who believes in space aliens...you just have to love him and smile when he started talking silly...but you still love him Edited June 29, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
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