Hie To Kolob-2...God with a capital "G", and god with a little "g".

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In a previous thread entitled, "Hie to Kolob", the name taken from a wonderful hymn, I was misunderstood. These misunderstandings led to some questioning the message I was attempting to convey. Some questioning if I worshiped Jesus Christ, some who felt I was being misleading, and others trying to explain the Hebrew written word. 

I was trying to convey the difference between "God with a capital G", and how it differed from "gods with a little g" in scripture. I am and was aware that in Hebrew there were no capital letters, but when moving from oral tradition to written scripture the word "Elohiem" whenever used (which has a few meanings such as Gods, or God of Gods) that each time the name was recorded (if my history is correct) scribes would use a different quill each time they recorded this name, the name "Elohiem". 

What I was trying to convey with my comments about big "G's" and little "g's", was, that much of the world's knowledge of from scripture, was taken from the English language, "1611 KJV" of the Bible. Most other Europien languages used capital letters where appropriate. I am unsure of Latin. But all of LDS Scripture (which uses the KJV Bible) is in English which uses the same form of speaking and of writing. This is so, because none of our Standard Works are in any other language when first printed. We do not have "any" of the original texts, none are available. So we have always had Joesph's interpretation, from the plates, through revelation and by other means. 

So when the Bible speaks of God, his name is capitalized, and when Jesus spoke of us being "gods and children of the Most High", it was clear that we were not, "Gods and children of the Most High". So when the Prophet Joesph dictated D&C 132, when he spoke of "God, capitalized", and when he spoke of what we might one day become, it was "gods, in lower case. 

One poster even question me when I said "God the Father was the only true God", to question if I worship Christ at all, as it I made it up, or it was my own words. The quote comes from Jesus Christ himself, John 17: 3 "For this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true and living God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hath sent". (Hope I got this right...working from memory). At that time Jesus had not yet received the fullness of his glory. Now, having overcome the world, He sits at the right hand of the Father.

i hope this clears up any confusion I created, and hope all here can help me understand these issues better. But one thing to make clear, no matter what we become and no matter how far we may progress, Elohiem, God our Father, will always be our God, and Jesus Christ will always be our Saviour...of this I am sure. 

[Calm]

"scribes would use a different quill each time they recorded this name, the name "Elohiem"."

CFR please.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

...................................................................   

i hope this clears up any confusion I created, and hope all here can help me understand these issues better. But one thing to make clear, no matter what we become and no matter how far we may progress, Elohiem, God our Father, will always be our God, and Jesus Christ will always be our Saviour...of this I am sure. 

Elder Oaks preached a highly theological sermon on the Godhead in the Sunday morning session of this April Conference, and I think that you pretty much agreed with him in most respects.  However, where you may misunderstand is that the god-names you mention are really titles, and who holds a particular title at any given time may be quite fluid (consider eternal progression, for example).  If there is any confusion, it can usually be traced back to Scripture itself.

[JLHPROF]

I fully believe we will become Gods, just as our Heavenly Father is a God.  We will become part of the Eloheim (Council of the Gods) and assist in creating and peopling new worlds as our Heavenly Father did.  And in all this we will eternally return and report to Christ who will preside, just as he and Heavenly Father return and report to their heads.

Any differentiation between us and Heavenly Father is an issue of progression, which continues eternally.  He will always be above us, but there is nothing preventing us progressing in all eternity to the station he currently occupies while he continues his own progression ahead of us and over us.

To me this is the very reason of existence and the work of God.  All else is just extracurriculars.

(And yes Ahab, I am speaking of offices.  I know we are already the same species as God is.)

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

"scribes would use a different quill each time they recorded this name, the name "Elohiem"."

CFR please.

Something I remembered from a conference talk, and from old seminary books...this is why I said "if memory serves". So I cannot give a CFR, maybe someone more computer savvy can use a search engine to find it. It was however a minor point to the larger issue. As for all other scriptures, it is clear there is a distinction between "God" and "gods". 

Edit to add: It may have been something I saw in "Mormon Doctrine", I no longer have a copy to reference. Either way my goal in this life is live in such a way that I will someday dwell God. If, as a biy product of righteous living leads to such distinction and station, so be it. Right now with my finite mind, I cannot conceive of it. As I have said in the other thread, I have had friends whose total focus is becoming a God, and speaking in terms lacking in almost no humility. I obey God, because I love him, His Son for having saved me, and the Holy Ghost for guiding me. I have no other motivation...I just love them. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Calm]

 No problem, just found it an interesting idea and wanted to know more.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

 No problem, just found it an interesting idea and wanted to know more.

I too would like to find that reference once again, there was a time I could remember where I first read or encountered anything. Those days are gone, many times now I go into another room to find something and forget what I was looking for.  

[Calm]

Same here.  Very annoying.

[Ahab]

Thank you, Papa, for clearing up what you meant. I disagree with some of your points about how the little g and big G should be interpreted but I will not get into that now except to say that a LOT of people don't correctly understand the kind of being we are and will continue to be regardless of how much we may become more like our Father than we are now.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Ahab

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Thank you, Papa, for clearing up what you meant. I disagree with some of your points about how the little g and big G should be interpreted but I will not get into that now except to say that a LOT of people don't correctly understand the kind of being we are and will continue to be regardless of how much we may become more like our Father than we are now.

I am always open to learning, so list the disagreements. I am aware that Jesus said, that "ye are all gods, and children of the Most High". Also as Paul taught, that "we are joint heirs with Christ" and that, "all that the Father has so shall (or can) have. Also that Jesus Christ, "Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God". Please forgive any errors in quotes, working from an every demishing memory. I just feel our first motivation should be love for what Jesus has done for us, and not reward based...I mean it has it's place, just not our first emotion or ambition. 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I am always open to learning, so list the disagreements. I am aware that Jesus said, that "ye are all gods, and children of the Most High". Also as Paul taught, that "we are joint heirs with Christ" and that, "all that the Father has so shall (or can) have. Also that Jesus Christ, "Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God". Please forgive any errors in quotes, working from an every demishing memory. I just feel our first motivation should be love for what Jesus has done for us, and not reward based...I mean it has it's place, just not our first emotion or ambition. 

I agree with your overall tone and sentiment and would rather leave it at that for now. Not being too nitpicky is a good thing, sometimes.

[JLHPROF]

52 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

 I just feel our first motivation should be love for what Jesus has done for us, and not reward based...I mean it has it's place, just not our first emotion or ambition.

It's not about reward.
Is it a reward for a child to get to grow up to be like his goodly parent?
We love Jesus by becoming like him.  Jesus showed his love for the Father by emulating him exactly.

The evangelical adoration is a good way to love God.  Mormon exaltation to Godhood is a better one.  After all, it is his work and his glory.
 

Edited April 5, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's not about reward.
Is it a reward for a child to get to grow up to be like his goodly parent?
We love Jesus by becoming like him.  Jesus showed his love for the Father by emulating him exactly.

The evangelical adoration is a good way to love God.  Mormon exaltation to Godhood is a better one.  After all, it is his work and his glory.
 

I am not suggesting that most are only motivated by reward. But I have had friends who boast about when they are Gods themselves...such arrogance (knowing them as I do, it is arrogance) makes me uneasy. One such friend for 25+ years became our Bishop destroyed the Ward, within three years the Ward was done away with. Every 5th Sunday he taught every lesson, about food storage, end of the world and becoming gods. This same obsession is what fueled a break within the Church over polygamy and what drives fundamentalists groups to this day. That pond friendship quickly ended when my friend showed me his five year supply, ammo and so on. I simply asked if he was not taking this a bit to far, and questioned a comment he made. The comment was, "even if I found out the BoM was not true, I would still follow Joseph Smith, because he is right about everything in the last days". When I asked, what of Christ? We rarely ever spoke again, now we never speak. I know this is an extreme example, but not the only one. 

[Five Solas]

On 4/3/2017 at 7:25 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

In a previous thread entitled, "Hie to Kolob", the name taken from a wonderful hymn, I was misunderstood. These misunderstandings led to some questioning the message I was attempting to convey. Some questioning if I worshiped Jesus Christ, some who felt I was being misleading, and others trying to explain the Hebrew written word. 

I was trying to convey the difference between "God with a capital G", and how it differed from "gods with a little g" in scripture. I am and was aware that in Hebrew there were no capital letters, but when moving from oral tradition to written scripture the word "Elohiem" whenever used (which has a few meanings such as Gods, or God of Gods) that each time the name was recorded (if my history is correct) scribes would use a different quill each time they recorded this name, the name "Elohiem". 

What I was trying to convey with my comments about big "G's" and little "g's", was, that much of the world's knowledge of from scripture, was taken from the English language, "1611 KJV" of the Bible. Most other Europien languages used capital letters where appropriate. I am unsure of Latin. But all of LDS Scripture (which uses the KJV Bible) is in English which uses the same form of speaking and of writing. This is so, because none of our Standard Works are in any other language when first printed. We do not have "any" of the original texts, none are available. So we have always had Joesph's interpretation, from the plates, through revelation and by other means. 

So when the Bible speaks of God, his name is capitalized, and when Jesus spoke of us being "gods and children of the Most High", it was clear that we were not, "Gods and children of the Most High". So when the Prophet Joesph dictated D&C 132, when he spoke of "God, capitalized", and when he spoke of what we might one day become, it was "gods, in lower case. 

One poster even question me when I said "God the Father was the only true God", to question if I worship Christ at all, as it I made it up, or it was my own words. The quote comes from Jesus Christ himself, John 17: 3 "For this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true and living God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hath sent". (Hope I got this right...working from memory). At that time Jesus had not yet received the fullness of his glory. Now, having overcome the world, He sits at the right hand of the Father.

i hope this clears up any confusion I created, and hope all here can help me understand these issues better. But one thing to make clear, no matter what we become and no matter how far we may progress, Elohiem, God our Father, will always be our God, and Jesus Christ will always be our Saviour...of this I am sure. 

I may have had something to do with this, and regardless, I do appreciate you sharing your additional thoughts on the matter.

Two questions if you would engage a bit further on the topic:

1)  Using your definitions, is Jesus now a God (upper-case) or a god (lower-case)?

2)  If you respond Jesus is a capital 'G" God, then do you think he has always been a capital 'G' God?  Or was he once lower-case?

Thanks again, Bill "Papa" Lee.

--Erik

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I may have had something to do with this, and regardless, I do appreciate you sharing your additional thoughts on the matter.

Two questions if you would engage a bit further on the topic:

1)  Using your definitions, is Jesus now a God (upper-case) or a god (lower-case)?

2)  If you respond Jesus is a capital 'G" God, then do you think he has always been a capital 'G' God?  Or was he once lower-case?

Thanks again, Bill "Papa" Lee.

--Erik

Jesus always God upper "G" creator of all things, scripturally speak he did have things to do in mortality to gain his fullness of Glory, to be equal with the Father. I don't know why it is so, I just know the scriptures clearly speak of it. 

[Five Solas]

On 4/6/2017 at 10:22 AM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Jesus always God upper "G" creator of all things, scripturally speak he did have things to do in mortality to gain his fullness of Glory, to be equal with the Father. I don't know why it is so, I just know the scriptures clearly speak of it. 

Interesting.  I'm curious what you make of the LDS hymn, "Praise to the Man" wherein the phrase Mingling with Gods, he [Joseph Smith] can plan for his brethren uses upper-case 'G' Gods?  Doesn't the official version of those lyrics undermine the distinction ('G' vs. 'g') you've labored to make?  Seems like it has to.  The word "mingling" would be an awkward & misleading choice if songwriter W. W. Phelps only had one or two Gods in view.  It suggests a plurality greater than that.  And are we really to think Joseph Smith is just a little 'g' mingling with all the big 'G's?  Do you think that's what Phelps had in mind?   

One more question if I could, how many Gods do you worship, Bill "Papa" Lee?

--Erik

___________________________________________

You kicked and cried like a bullied child
A grown man of twenty-five
Oh, he said he'd cure your ills
But he didn't and he never will

--The Smiths "This Night Has Opened My Eyes"

Edited April 8, 2017 by Five Solas
typed too fast

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Interesting.  I'm curious what you make of the LDS hymn, "Praise to the Man" wherein the phrase Mingling with Gods, he [Joseph Smith] can plan for his brethren uses upper-case 'G' Gods?  Doesn't the official version of those lyrics undermine the distinction ('G' vs. 'g') you've labored to make?  Seems like it has to.  The word "mingling" would be an awkward & misleading choice if songwriter W. W. Phelps only had one or two Gods in view.  It suggests a plurality greater than that.  And are we really to think Joseph Smith is just a little 'g' mingling with all the big 'G's?  Do you think that's what Phelps had in mind?   

One more question if I could, how many Gods do you worship, Bill "Papa" Lee?

--Erik

___________________________________________

You kicked and cried like a bullied child
A grown man of twenty-five
Oh, he said he'd cure your ills
But he didn't and he never will

--The Smiths "This Night Has Opened My Eyes"

First of all, I contribute the lyrics as written to W.W. Phelps who wrote "Praise To The Man" and "Hie To Kolob", and not scripture. I worship God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost" as one God, which is clearly spelled out in John 17. I am starting to feel as you are trying to lead me down the garden path, only to drop me in a hole. Is this your intent, or did not know both hymns were written by the same man? 

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Interesting.  I'm curious what you make of the LDS hymn, "Praise to the Man" wherein the phrase Mingling with Gods, he [Joseph Smith] can plan for his brethren uses upper-case 'G' Gods?  Doesn't the official version of those lyrics undermine the distinction ('G' vs. 'g') you've labored to make?  Seems like it has to.  The word "mingling" would be an awkward & misleading choice if songwriter W. W. Phelps only had one or two Gods in view.  It suggests a plurality greater than that.  And are we really to think Joseph Smith is just a little 'g' mingling with all the big 'G's?  Do you think that's what Phelps had in mind?   

One more question if I could, how many Gods do you worship, Bill "Papa" Lee?

I think W.W. Phelps was taught his theology by Joseph Smith.  It may not be scripture but the source is fairly clear.

Me personally, I worship Heavenly Father.  He is the only God we worship.  Christ specified this himself.

But I revere and recognized many, many Gods.  Including Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother, Jesus Christ,  The Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith, Adam, Michael, Eve, Jehovah, Eloheim, The Creator, The Redeemer, the Witness and Testator, and many others.

...some of these are actually the same people and some are not - I'll let you decide which are which

Edited April 9, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Five Solas]

On 4/8/2017 at 4:58 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

First of all, I contribute the lyrics as written to W.W. Phelps who wrote "Praise To The Man" and "Hie To Kolob", and not scripture. I worship God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost" as one God, which is clearly spelled out in John 17. I am starting to feel as you are trying to lead me down the garden path, only to drop me in a hole. Is this your intent, or did not know both hymns were written by the same man? 

I'm not leading you anywhere, Bill "Papa" Lee, I'm just trying to understand you.  Sometimes you write things that strike me as very conventional LDS thinking (the religious ideas I was taught growing up), and sometimes you surprise me.  But either way, I'd much prefer you not fall into a hole!

:0) 

Out of curiosity, what do you make of JLHPROF's post above?  To me, he seems much more in line with what I imagine would have been W.W. Phelps' thinking.  Certainly more than what you wrote concerning little-g gods vs. big-G Gods.  But what do you say?  Is JLHPROF wrong?  Do you think he should worship Jesus--as you've told us you do?  Or do you think it's up to individual preference and that God doesn't care either way?

--Erik

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Out of curiosity, what do you make of JLHPROF's post above?  To me, he seems much more in line with what I imagine would have been W.W. Phelps' thinking.  Certainly more than what you wrote concerning little-g gods vs. big-G Gods.  But what do you say?  Is JLHPROF wrong?  Do you think he should worship Jesus--as you've told us you do?  Or do you think it's up to individual preference and that God doesn't care either way?

--Erik

I don't want to suggest I am right and others are wrong. But, having not grown up LDS, I give greater weight to the words of canonized scripture than to sermons. If the KFD, were canonized LDS scripture and not a sermon, I would give it greater weight. But what did become canon is D&C 132, and it is because of Joseph's instruction as revelation, where when speaking of God, he uses "G", and that which we are to (or may) become as gods, "g". W.W. Phelps who was a close friend to Joseph, and later betrayed him, who felt the need to make penitence for that betrayal that caused him to write "Hail to the Prophet" after the death of the Prophet...so this would explain why he may have written many songs as he did. "Hie to Kolob" is a thrilling song, just as were many from my upbringing that were not scripture, but an effort by some to reflect scripture, or doctrine. If the KFD were to be canonized, then I would have to rethink my position. But it has not, nor do I think it ever will be be. Also, if you look at almost every printed approved Sunday School material, great care is taken even when discussing such matters. I only made mention of this in the first place because every words of the Book of Mormon, The D&C and the PoGP are in English as there is no other language that they can be found in elsewhere. Also, every other translation is thane from that English, and the capitalization in all it's uses.