JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Many intelligent LDS (including Dan Peterson) believe in dowsing, or water witching. Joseph Smith believed in seer stones, he "like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects". You think they are irrational? Can't speak to water witching. But I do believe in Seer Stones.
Gray Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) Faith is essentially trust and loyalty. When scriptures talk about faith they talk about trust that God will act in the promised ways, trust that Yeshua is the Son of God and Savior (and not Caesar, as everyone else seemed to believe), loyalty to Yahweh but not Baal. Belief in God or gods was taken for granted, so it wasn't about that. Edited March 21, 2017 by Gray
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: Faith is essentially trust and loyalty. When scriptures talk about faith they talk about trust that God will act in the promised ways, trust that Yeshua is the Son of God and Savior (and not Caesar, as everyone else seemed to believe), loyalty to Yahweh but not Baal. Belief in God or gods was taken for granted, so it wasn't about that. ThE dictionary definition is more about faith being a certainty, or the state of being sure about something. To have confidence or an assurance about something. Like having faith that God lives is all about being sure or confident that God lives. And with that confidence or assurance being evident by what that person does and thinks as a result of having that confidence. That Is generally considered to be a show of good faith, but there is also be firms of bad faith too, like how a con (confidence) man can string someone along to lead others to have confidence in things that are not true.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 21, 2017 Author Posted March 21, 2017 2 hours ago, clarkgoble said: If you're that capable of being dishonest with yourself, why do you think your current memories and interpretations of memories are more trustworthy? (Honest question -- it just seems you've identified a problem in your thinking) We humans need memory for survival, it doesn't mean our memory is perfect, but we still need it. I was desperate to believe, to me almost anything was good enough, even goose bumps. Used to. 2 hours ago, clarkgoble said: If I consistently get warnings by the spirit and in each time I discover a compelling basis after the fact for the warning. That's repetition and, assuming I also pay attention to prompting where I can't discover anything, falsifiable as being chance. Seems fair enough, but I still have doubts because of ambiguity and cognitive biases. Many people believe in psychics, seer stones, and dowsing for the same reasons. I can't tell the difference between the spirit and my own feelings and thoughts. It would be awesome if I could predict the future (with details), but I can't do that.
Glenn101 Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: 3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: So under Occam's razor, is God the best explanation? Yes, at least to me based upon my own spiritual experiences. Your opinion obviously does vary from that quite a bit. And that is why faith is important.
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 58 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: I can't tell the difference between the spirit and my own feelings and thoughts. The help I rely on from God through the spirit (Holy Spirit) is his help discerning between good and evil. More specifically, his help discerning and his help in learning more and more about all good things. It need not seem like anything extraordinary that only a miracle could account for. Just something, any help at all, that helps me to be more intelligent and able to recognize truth and wisdom which any intelligent person could easily see, maybe, just by looking for it. And not only do I think good thoughts and learn good things when I sense that God is helping me, but I also feel pretty darn good about the fact that I am learning to be one of the more intelligent and mentally alert individuals amongst everyone else that I see.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 22, 2017 Author Posted March 22, 2017 9 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Yes, at least to me based upon my own spiritual experiences. Your opinion obviously does vary from that quite a bit. And that is why faith is important. How do you know God cares about faith and religious rites?
MormonVideoGame Posted March 22, 2017 Author Posted March 22, 2017 12 hours ago, clarkgoble said: If I consistently get warnings by the spirit and in each time I discover a compelling basis after the fact for the warning. That's repetition and, assuming I also pay attention to prompting where I can't discover anything, falsifiable as being chance. A more important question. Why doesn't the LDS church teach that? If you are right the LDS church should always be teaching that, especially in General Conference. You won't find the word "repetition" in lessons on the Holy Ghost. That should be like the central teaching.
clarkgoble Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 10 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: A more important question. Why doesn't the LDS church teach that? If you are right the LDS church should always be teaching that, especially in General Conference. You won't find the word "repetition" in lessons on the Holy Ghost. That should be like the central teaching. I definitely think the church could do a much better job teaching about the spirit. Not only about how to recognize the spirit but especially how to distinguish it from counterfeits. I think that latter is a problem in church. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 22, 2017 Author Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I definitely think the church could do a much better job teaching about the spirit. Not only about how to recognize the spirit but especially how to distinguish it from counterfeits. I think that latter is a problem in church. Yes, exactly! but it always uses ambiguous language . We wouldn't need gospel topic essays if the church successfully taught us how to recognize the spirit. Many problems would go away. So one has to wonder why the church isn't doing a better job in teaching about the spirit? Edited March 22, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
ksfisher Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 5 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I definitely think the church could do a much better job teaching about the spirit. Not only about how to recognize the spirit but especially how to distinguish it from counterfeits. I think that latter is a problem in church. I believe that countless hours of instruction has been devoted to teaching people how to identify the spirit. But, perhaps, one of the difficulties is that the spirit speaks to each of us in a slightly different manner. I would think that a much greater problem is helping people to remain worthy to have the spirit with them. 2
MormonVideoGame Posted March 22, 2017 Author Posted March 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: one of the difficulties is that the spirit speaks to each of us in a slightly different manner. but that allows cognitive biases. Your claim won't help guys like me, especially with serious doubts.
ksfisher Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 1 minute ago, MormonVideoGame said: but that allows cognitive biases. Your claim won't help guys like me, especially with serious doubts. Just like each child has to learn what their parents voice sounds like on their own, so we must also learn how to distinguish how the spirit whispers to each of us. There's really no substitute here for personal experience. 2
Ahab Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: Just like each child has to learn what their parents voice sounds like on their own, so we must also learn how to distinguish how the spirit whispers to each of us. There's really no substitute here for personal experience. Right because if you told him "this is how you tell when God is speaking to you: (yada yada)" that would be you telling him that. And even people with the best of intentions can be wrong. I usually settle for telling others that God is the name we use to refer to the "good" guy and Satan is what we call his nemesis, the "evil" guy. Saying that in various wats. But since people choose for themselves what to call good and what to call evil that doesn't necessarily help very much.
Atheist Mormon Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 Quote Why is Faith important? Have no clue.....But I know very well why money is important.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, ksfisher said: Just like each child has to learn what their parents voice sounds like on their own but notice it is one thing "voice". 22 hours ago, ksfisher said: so we must also learn how to distinguish how the spirit whispers to each of us Please explain what "spirit whispers" means. 19 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Have no clue.....But I know very well why money is important. Yes money is very important, that is why there are brilliant young earth creationists making a lot of money. Some young earth creationists are excellent engineers, business managers, programmers, you name it. Edited March 23, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
ksfisher Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: but notice it is one thing "voice". Please explain what "spirit whispers" means. I don't understand your first sentence. "but notice it is one thing "voice" would seem to be an incomplete sentence and I'm not really sure what you mean. "how the spirit whispers to each of us" (to quote myself more completely) means that the spirit does not shout. 11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. 1 Kings
Atheist Mormon Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Yes money is very important, that is why there are brilliant young earth creationists making a lot of money. Some young earth creationists are excellent engineers, business managers, programmers, you name it. Oh I know some of them, in fact one of them came here other day showed me a solid rock ( which I took a picture) proceeded to tell me it was a cow dung a month ago, petrification takes few weeks rather than millions of years. My office is full of fossils, I have many trilobites, petrified wood, dinosaur fossils......I have no intention of waking them out of your dreams or correcting them, if they are happy in their ignorance, I am happy for them.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 23, 2017 Author Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, ksfisher said: "how the spirit whispers to each of us" (to quote myself more completely) means that the spirit does not shout. I need a clear description please, I don't understand. What is a "still small voice"? Is it the inner voice? 4 hours ago, ksfisher said: "but notice it is one thing "voice" would seem to be an incomplete sentence and I'm not really sure what you mean. Voice - "sound produced by vertebrates by means of lungs, larynx, or syrinx; especially : sound so produced by human being" Edited March 24, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
MormonVideoGame Posted March 24, 2017 Author Posted March 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: My office is full of fossils, I have many trilobites, petrified wood, dinosaur fossils......I have no intention of waking them out of your dreams or correcting them, if they are happy in their ignorance, I am happy for them. you a paleontologist?
Atheist Mormon Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 No, but I spent most of my free life hiking in Colorado Plateau. I know the mechanism of Evolution very well
Glenn101 Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 On 3/22/2017 at 0:44 AM, MormonVideoGame said: How do you know God cares about faith and religious rites? Based upon my own spiritual experiences. You cannot argue with that. You may not believe that I had them, or you may not believe that if I had them they were only chemically induced illusions. That is your choice. But since I was there and received some communications on at least two occasions, I am comfortable with my belief faith in a caring God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I am comfortable with my faith in Jesus Christ and in His atonement. I am comfortable with my faith in the resurrection, that Jesus Christ and God the Father actually appeared to Joseph Smith and that Jesus appeared to a few others in the 1800's. Because I have had spiritual experiences, communications from the Holy Ghost that have confirmed them. Glenn
Atheist Mormon Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 Look, I don't disrespect any of you in appearance, when you dismiss Charles Darwin's theory. When LDS Church comes up with a statement "We don't have solid opinion on Evolution". What kinda message is this? If the Church don't know who is gonna know? Even the Pope has accepted it as a fact. To me it would serve more of a valuable stance if they were opposing the Evolution as they did constantly until early 20th century.
Glenn101 Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 On 3/21/2017 at 2:35 PM, MormonVideoGame said: I can't tell the difference between the spirit and my own feelings and thoughts. It would be awesome if I could predict the future (with details), but I can't do that. None of my spiritual experiences, except maybe one, gave me any help with the future. But the ones that I have had are so memorable because they are unlike my own thoughts and feelings. Some of my thought have led to personal insights, but nothing like the conviction(s) that have been borne to me via the Holy Ghost. Glenn
Glenn101 Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Look, I don't disrespect any of you in appearance, when you dismiss Charles Darwin's theory. When LDS Church comes up with a statement "We don't have solid opinion on Evolution". What kinda message is this? If the Church don't know who is gonna know? Even the Pope has accepted it as a fact. To me it would serve more of a valuable stance if they were opposing the Evolution as they did constantly until early 20th century. The Church through its various leaders have always testified that the universe and this words and the life thereon was created by God. That is all we need really to know. It has not been revealed yet just how God did it. The process, that is. Was the universe produced bay a big bang, or quantum fluctuation? Doesn't matter. However it came about, God was the prime mover, according to faith. Glenn
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