Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2017 Author Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Because it might be a hard journey, they might suffer pain and humiliation, they might not be able to stay home with me forever...and so forth. Indeed. We should be eternal helicopter parents and enablers. Edited February 16, 2017 by Bernard Gui 3
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2017 Author Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) On February 15, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Jeanne said: No...not at all. I don't just claim to love children..I do love children...which is why I would not put them on a planet with no direction or enough info to return home. They would never have to worship me for me to love them. We have all the direction and information we need. I don't recognize that god who barters worship for love. Edited February 17, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Gray Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 38 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: it's suffering that makes the sweet so exquisite. No one will be made to be like God, but all will have the opportunity to make the choice. That works as long as we only consider first world type problems. The holocaust never made anyone's life sweeter than it otherwise would have been. 1
Gray Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: How about letting your child be president if she wants to? Why would you impose your limits on her? It's not about letting - he'll do what he wants to do. But that's not a good path for most people, and I certainly wouldn't wish a political career on him. Edited February 16, 2017 by Gray
Gray Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: It is powerful love to offer them everything God has...the gift by His grace (love) to live as He lives and play in the best playground there could possibly be. So the question is, is it only Mormons who love their children? Or is there room for disagreement about what parents can wish for their children? 1
Gray Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 40 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Indeed. We should be eternal helicopter parents and enablers. There's probably a middle ground between helicopter parenting and abandonment.
Jeanne Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: We have all the direction and information we need. I don't recognize that god that barters worship for love. You have past and present doctrine that are not agreeable or lasting and prophets that don't deem to get it right the first time..we are still arguing on whether there is anything sustainable in the restoration and Book of Mormon..and there are no answers save that you have faith. It is like letting a 4 year old sent on a journey without the directions.
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2017 Author Posted February 16, 2017 25 minutes ago, Gray said: That works as long as we only consider first world type problems. The holocaust never made anyone's life sweeter than it otherwise would have been. The sweet, of course, is eternally granted through the mercy and justice of God after our probation is completed, in addition to the moments of love and peace we may have during times of greatest duress while we pass through the crucible. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2017 Author Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Jeanne said: You have past and present doctrine that are not agreeable or lasting and prophets that don't deem to get it right the first time..we are still arguing on whether there is anything sustainable in the restoration and Book of Mormon..and there are no answers save that you have faith. It is like letting a 4 year old sent on a journey without the directions. Who is this We, Kimo Sabe? Old Lone Ranger joke. That has absolutely no bearing on the reality of my life and many, many folks I know. Faith is all any of us have, bolstered by the witness of the Spirit. We have more than sufficient directions for our needs. Love God, serve his children, repent, make and keep covenants. What more is needed? Edited February 16, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 On 2/14/2017 at 5:13 PM, Bernard Gui said: I am so thankful our religion offers us the hope of participating with God in the creation of new worlds and populating them with His children. I cannot imagine anything that could be more beautiful, satisfying, and exciting as this. If this is where He plays, I want to be a part of it, no matter how small that part may be. What do you think? https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170208.html I never knew God wore bow-ties. Interesting. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: You have past and present doctrine that are not agreeable or lasting and prophets that don't deem to get it right the first time..we are still arguing on whether there is anything sustainable in the restoration and Book of Mormon..and there are no answers save that you have faith. It is like letting a 4 year old sent on a journey without the directions. I'll make you a deal. Remain civil, unlike this post, and I promise I will not tell you what I really think of this post, ok? It's not complimentary just in case you were in doubt.
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 On 2/14/2017 at 6:25 PM, Teancum said: I think if you really believe you will be a god and create worlds you are believing in a wonderful fantasy. Do you think we didn't already know that?
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 7 hours ago, Jeanne said: The OP discussion on this is the very reason I don't want to be in the Celestial Kingdom..if there is one. NO way! Would I want to put my spirit children through this?? With little information with so much accountability to return to Mom??? No way...I love children unconditionally...Having a planet is just the last thing I want! Edited to add: This is even sadder when they don't know who their mother is...or talk to me!! That's ok, your wish will be granted! Oh, and it's not about planets. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 6 hours ago, Gray said: You can't really love your children unless you want them to be gods? Of course he never said that, but who cares about actually being on point when you can insult someone's beliefs? I hope it made you feel better.
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gray said: I don't think it'd want my child to be the president. That doesn't sound like a happy path to me. Is there something wrong with me? You can't really love your children unless you want them to be president. Edited February 16, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 4 hours ago, Gray said: I don't know if there is really a good analogy with human life. I get where Jeanne is coming from. The path that the plan of salvation outlines is one fraught with terrible suffering. The kind of parenthood we ascribe to God involves the heavenly parent making decisions that no earthly parent would feel comfortable with. Like, for instance, cutting off all direct with mom, or exposing your children to terrible, monstrous suffering as part of a test designed to make them like you are. Even if you make it to Godhood, the suffering doesn't end, if you believe Terryl Givens. Oh like the savior then right? And Givens is wrong on that one. God does not cower in tears. He rejoices in triumph in overcoming the world. His whole point is that God feels emotion- but imo he carried too far and that particular emotion. If Givens is right then God needs to meditate and notice emotion without surrendering to it.
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Jeanne said: No...not at all. I don't just claim to love children..I do love children...which is why I would not put them on a planet with no direction or enough info to return home. They would never have to worship me for me to love them. And where did you hear God does any of that? That's not my God. I talk to him daily. And I worship him because I know him and he deserves it. If I felt my full potential was worshiping God all day I would! I can honestly think of nothing better than to contemplate his goodness all day. I could even be Catholic like Miserere if I wasn't so ambitious. (sorry dude- you left yourself open for that one! ) 2
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Gray said: That works as long as we only consider first world type problems. The holocaust never made anyone's life sweeter than it otherwise would have been. Sweeter? Life is not about sweetness Viktor Frankl, psychiatrist and author if Man's Search for Meaning, a book which has given hope to millions, including me. I learned this principle from Frankl. Read the article and the book- it can change your view on this. Quote Liberated after three years in concentration camps, Frankl returned to Vienna, where he developed and lectured about his own approach to psychological healing. Frankl believed that people are primarily driven by a "striving to find meaning in one's life," and that it is this sense of meaning that enables people to overcome painful experiences. Frankl wrote his world-famous book entitled, Trotzdem Ja Zum Leben Sagen: Ein Psychologe Erlebt das Konzentrationslager ("Saying Yes to Life in Spite of Everything: A Psychologist Experiences the Concentration Camp"), known in English by the title Man's Search for Meaning (1959 title: "From Death-Camp to Existentialism").[7] In this book, he described the life of an ordinary concentration camp inmate from the objective perspective of a psychiatrist.[3][8] After enduring the suffering in these camps, Frankl validated his hallmark conclusion that even in the most absurd, painful, and dehumanized situation, life has potential meaning and that, therefore, even suffering is meaningful. This conclusion served as a strong basis for his logotherapy and existential analysis, which Frankl had described before World War II. He is quoted as saying, "What is to give light must endure burning." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl 3
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Gray said: There's probably a middle ground between helicopter parenting and abandonment. God doesn't abandon anyone. People abandon God. I guess worshipping the universe does not work as well as you make it sound. I am sorry you feel abandoned. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 I don't get this idea that a merciful, loving God is going to give us something we don't want (bearing in mind that, as Forrest Forrest Gump might put it, "Want is as want does") for Eternity. Don't want to be a creator or a populator of worlds without number? Fine. There are other options which will suit you just fine! Come play harp in my orchestra!
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2017 Author Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: I don't get this idea that a merciful, loving God is going to give us something we don't want (bearing in mind that, as Forrest Forrest Gump might put it, "Want is as want does") for Eternity. Don't want to be a creator or a populator of worlds without number? Fine. There are other options which will suit you just fine! Come play harp in my orchestra! One lesson I've learned in my experiences with the addiction recovery program is that if we expect to become like Father we must know loss, sorrow, and rejection while maintaining love and compassion. There is a greater purpose for everything that is for our good, and it is true that these things give us experience that will be for our good. the reward will be more than adequate compensation. 2
Atheist Mormon Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 On 2/14/2017 at 7:13 PM, Bernard Gui said: I am so thankful our religion offers us the hope of participating with God in the creation of new worlds and populating them with His children. I cannot imagine anything that could be more beautiful, satisfying, and exciting as this. If this is where He plays, I want to be a part of it, no matter how small that part may be. What do you think? https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170208.html The APOD picture you are linking is a supernova, there is no life around it at least for few light years. APOD is the first page I start my day. Unfortunately all those beautiful Supernovas are nothing but the destruction of stars and the hundreds of Exoplanets are too far to discover any life. Our best hope SETI is equally silent about extraterrestrial signals due to the size of Universe. I'm not discounting the Scriptures as another resource. The problem for me to ascertain anything depends on evidence....It is a burden for sure to be born with a overwhelmingly skeptical brain.
Gray Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: The sweet, of course, is eternally granted through the mercy and justice of God after our probation is completed, in addition to the moments of love and peace we may have during times of greatest duress while we pass through the crucible. Not all fires are refining. Some fires just destroy.
Gray Posted February 16, 2017 Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: God doesn't abandon anyone. People abandon God. God (personal exalted man who is God) isn't here, God doesn't take care of us. We have to take care of ourselves. Quote I guess worshipping the universe does not work as well as you make it sound. I am sorry you feel abandoned. I don't feel abandoned. But if I thought that God was really my father, I would feel that way. God doesn't behave like a father. God behaves just as I envision God - that is to say, God is existence, God is not a being who interacts with us. Edited February 16, 2017 by Gray
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