When was the last time you read the BoM?

[waveslider]

8 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The Bible is primarily about Christ and His relationship to man through Israel. It is likely that the United States could be decimated by the Rapture (home to a high percentage of Christians) and may have little or no specific influence in future events. There is some alluding to the Eagle in Daniel; however, this is speculative at best. 

Where is the Rapture mentioned in the Bible?

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Would it be fiction...or non fiction this time?  So many more questions since the last time. 

Ask God in sincere prayer if it is fiction, or non fiction, instead of relying so heavily on rationalizations from man/woman and see what He says, especially since we have a very incomplete knowledge of the world back then, and what truly happened. The answer just may surprise you as it did the first time I read it.

[LittleNipper]

7 hours ago, waveslider said:

Where is the Rapture mentioned in the Bible?

4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois

---

You will not see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from Heaven, or us meeting Him in the air. You are right; the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All we see is Greek to me.

However, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" that is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. You can call it the "rapture," the "rapturo," or  "caught up". They all mean the same thing. But we can thank Roman influence for the word RAPTURE.

Edited December 3, 2016 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

7 hours ago, waveslider said:

Ask God in sincere prayer if it is fiction, or non fiction, instead of relying so heavily on rationalizations from man/woman and see what He says, especially since we have a very incomplete knowledge of the world back then, and what truly happened. The answer just may surprise you as it did the first time I read it.

This would be copacetic if the Bible promoted such logic; however, there is nowhere in the Bible (Old & New Testament) where sincere people are told to pray if a verse, chapter, or book is really God's Word.

[waveslider]

31 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois

---

You will not see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from Heaven, or us meeting Him in the air. You are right; the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All we see is Greek to me.

However, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" that is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. You can call it the "rapture," the "rapturo," or  "caught up". They all mean the same thing. But we can thank Roman influence for the word RAPTURE.

When the righteous are all caught up it will be the same time as Christ is coming again, not before the tribulations. The teaching of the righteous being taken up before the tribulations is not found anywhere in scripture. It is a relatively new false doctrine that only became popular in the 1800's.

Thessalonians 4 is talking about the resurrection happening and those who are alive will also meet Christ as he comes here to reign in the Millennium. Just read it together with the verse previous:

"16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Edited December 3, 2016 by waveslider
Edited to add another thought

[waveslider]

27 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

This would be copacetic if the Bible promoted such logic; however, there is nowhere in the Bible (Old & New Testament) where sincere people are told to pray if a verse, chapter, or book is really God's Word.

Unless you can think of a better way than prayer to obtain the Holy Ghost, I don't see that we are left to decide for ourselves what is contained within the scriptures:

"20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:20-21

Especially since Jesus told us to "....pray always..."
Luke 21:36

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

This would be copacetic if the Bible promoted such logic; however, there is nowhere in the Bible (Old & New Testament) where sincere people are told to pray if a verse, chapter, or book is really God's Word.

The NT teaches that people should pray for wisdom and God will give it to them. 

I will never understand any person who proclaims themselves to be Christian and then tells another that they should not pray to God in the name of Christ to gain knowledge and know His will. 

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I've been reading books by apostles right now and the New Testament and D&C so it will be a while before I read through the BOM again.

[LittleNipper]

23 hours ago, waveslider said:

Unless you can think of a better way than prayer to obtain the Holy Ghost, I don't see that we are left to decide for ourselves what is contained within the scriptures:

"20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:20-21

Especially since Jesus told us to "....pray always..."
Luke 21:36

This seems to clearly be referring to the understanding of said prophetic messages, and not the accepting of the scripture itself. One should always pray for understanding but not for accepting scripture as valid or not.

[LittleNipper]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

The NT teaches that people should pray for wisdom and God will give it to them. 

I will never understand any person who proclaims themselves to be Christian and then tells another that they should not pray to God in the name of Christ to gain knowledge and know His will. 

 

The Bible proclaims who is and how to become a child of God. Yes, one should pray for understanding and God's will.  However, the knowledge the Apostles had is clearly enough for one to be saved. The Apostiles didn't have the book of Mormon. And while Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament, He is revealed in the New.

[Boanerges]

8 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

The Bible proclaims who is and how to become a child of God. Yes, one should pray for understanding and God's will.  However, the knowledge the Apostles had is clearly enough for one to be saved. The Apostiles didn't have the book of Mormon. And while Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament, He is revealed in the New.

Good point. We do believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon contain the fullness of the gospel. The gospel is very simple.

As a side point, nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to pray. This is even pointed out in the Bible Dictionary. People did pray in both the OT and NT, however.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Boanerges

[LittleNipper]

9 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

Good point. We do believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon contain the fullness of the gospel. The gospel is very simple.

As a side point, nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to pray. This is even pointed out in the Bible Dictionary. People did pray in both the OT and NT, however.

Jesus did teach us through the New Testament how to pray. And so if one is provided with illustrations of people praying (both Old & New Testaments) and one is instructed by the Savior Himself how to pray, don't you imagine that it would be silly to not pray? We are not commanded to breath and yet we do. Now if only prayer was that natural. My guess is that it once was before the fall of Adam ---- if not even face to face conversation!

Edited December 4, 2016 by LittleNipper

[Boanerges]

35 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Jesus did teach us through the New Testament how to pray. And so if one is provided with illustrations of people praying (both Old & New Testaments) and one is instructed by the Savior Himself how to pray, don't you imagine that it would be silly to not pray? We are not commanded to breath and yet we do. Now if only prayer was that natural. My guess is that it once was before the fall of Adam ---- if not even face to face conversation!

I'm not saying we shouldn't pray. There are indeed may examples of prayer in the OT and NT. Prayer is indeed an integral part of worship for many, including those who are not Judeo-Christian. I was simply pointing out that as a topic of study I did last year I was actually a bit surprised to learn that the Bible does not contain a commandment to pray. Perhaps that was for a purpose because then maybe we would be praying because we want to and not because we have been commanded to or feel like we are "supposed to." I do not find myself praying to know if certain passages of scriptures or specific words of modern apostles and prophets are "true." I do find myself expressing my sincere hopes to God.

[rodheadlee]

45 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

 

Were you going to answer this?

 The USA, the most powerful nation in the world, and a friend of Israel at the End Times and nary a peep. Why do think that is?

I'll give you a hint since I have to go to work. The answer lies in  John 10:16

John 10:

 16 And ^aother ^bsheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be ^cone fold, and one shepherd.

  Who do think the other sheep are?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

The Bible proclaims who is and how to become a child of God. Yes, one should pray for understanding and God's will.  However, the knowledge the Apostles had is clearly enough for one to be saved. The Apostiles didn't have the book of Mormon. And while Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament, He is revealed in the New.

The apostles didn't have the NT either, but that doesn't mean it's not the word of God.

The Book of Mormon isn't important because we need it for salvation. It, like all scripture, is important because it helps us to know God and His son and how to follow Him. 

Can we ever have enough of God's word?

[cdowis]

On 12/2/2016 at 10:24 PM, LittleNipper said:

This would be copacetic if the Bible promoted such logic; however, there is nowhere in the Bible (Old & New Testament) where sincere people are told to pray if a verse, chapter, or book is really God's Word.

Matt 16 [15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 11 [9] And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.  [10] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

James 1 [5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But, of course, a scribe or Pharasee would declare with great pomp, "But, Charles, it does not say anything about finding out if a verse, chapter, or book is the word of God."

Edited December 4, 2016 by cdowis

[Boanerges]

5 hours ago, cdowis said:

Matt 16 [15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 11 [9] And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.  [10] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

James 1 [5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But, of course, a scribe or Pharasee would declare with great pomp, "But, Charles, it does not say anything about finding out if a verse, chapter, or book is the word of God."

The Spirit can and does reveal things during prayer and meditation. The Spirit also can and does reveal things without prayer and meditation.

[waveslider]

14 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

This seems to clearly be referring to the understanding of said prophetic messages, and not the accepting of the scripture itself. One should always pray for understanding but not for accepting scripture as valid or not.

What is scripture if not prophetic messages? How do you understand scripture/prophetic messages if you don't even know if they really came from God or not? So do you accept the Koran, the teachings of Buddah, or The Church Of Satan's Bible as scripture? If not then how do you know that the Bible is scripture? (I truly am curious as to what your answer is on how you know the Bible is truth)

CFR that we are not to pray to find out if we should accept scripture as valid, or be able to discern false scripture so we won't be deceived? I find other wise.

"12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
Hebrews 5:12-14

"14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
Ephesians 4:14

"5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
James 1:5-8

It is very clear that we are to discern what is truth. If we aren't skillful at using discernment how do we get skillful at it? Isn't prayer the most purest form of communication with our Father In Heaven, that we have access to? When Christ taught us how to pray he said. "....lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:...." (Matthew 6:13) How do we get delivered from evil if we can't discern what is true scripture and what is false scripture (Good or evil).

I don't see how you can say we aren't to pray for discernment if scripture is indeed from God, when we are told by the savior Himself:

"7  ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Matthew 7:7-8

If you want to know if scripture is of God, or if God even exists at all for that matter, I think it is a perfectly fine thing to seek and ask for in prayer. If I hadn't done that years ago I wouldn't believe that God even exists, let alone know for sure that scripture exists and that the Bible, as well as the BoM and the other standard works of this church, are true scripture. I truly don't see the logic in not asking the source of all true scripture if indeed He sourced it or not. If we are allowed to ask for anything that we need, even if it is only things we need to know, why is it wrong to ask?

I know that you most likely don't believe that the BoM is scripture, especially since you are trying to teach that we should not pray to find out if it is scripture, but I find this scripture to be more descriptive than others on who teaches us to pray and who teaches us not to pray:

"8  And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9  But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul."
2 Nephi 32:7-9

 

 

[LittleNipper]

7 hours ago, waveslider said:

What is scripture if not prophetic messages? How do you understand scripture/prophetic messages if you don't even know if they really came from God or not? So do you accept the Koran, the teachings of Buddah, or The Church Of Satan's Bible as scripture? If not then how do you know that the Bible is scripture? (I truly am curious as to what your answer is on how you know the Bible is truth)

CFR that we are not to pray to find out if we should accept scripture as valid, or be able to discern false scripture so we won't be deceived? I find other wise.

"12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
Hebrews 5:12-14

"14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
Ephesians 4:14

"5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
James 1:5-8

It is very clear that we are to discern what is truth. If we aren't skillful at using discernment how do we get skillful at it? Isn't prayer the most purest form of communication with our Father In Heaven, that we have access to? When Christ taught us how to pray he said. "....lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:...." (Matthew 6:13) How do we get delivered from evil if we can't discern what is true scripture and what is false scripture (Good or evil).

I don't see how you can say we aren't to pray for discernment if scripture is indeed from God, when we are told by the savior Himself:

"7  ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Matthew 7:7-8

If you want to know if scripture is of God, or if God even exists at all for that matter, I think it is a perfectly fine thing to seek and ask for in prayer. If I hadn't done that years ago I wouldn't believe that God even exists, let alone know for sure that scripture exists and that the Bible, as well as the BoM and the other standard works of this church, are true scripture. I truly don't see the logic in not asking the source of all true scripture if indeed He sourced it or not. If we are allowed to ask for anything that we need, even if it is only things we need to know, why is it wrong to ask?

I know that you most likely don't believe that the BoM is scripture, especially since you are trying to teach that we should not pray to find out if it is scripture, but I find this scripture to be more descriptive than others on who teaches us to pray and who teaches us not to pray:

"8  And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9  But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul."
2 Nephi 32:7-9

 

 

As I little child growing up, I always considered the Bible to be God's communication to man. I didn't always understand how or why, but I did accept the Bible as God's Word. I'm sure some (if not most) of this is because of when and where I was born. I'm a baby-boomer and I was born not far from Philadelphia. My dad became a born-again Christian  (converted from Roman Catholicism) when I was about 4. I listened to presented by an elderly lady of the wordless book (black/sin, red/blood, white/washed as snow, gold/heaven). The 50's were a very family friendly time. Anyway, it was all about S A V A T I O N when it came to the "religion" I was exposed to. Once a person becomes saved, everything else then comes into play and not before. So, I'm not seeking to establish my celestial kingdom with an eternal wife. Such thoughts totally lack any of my concern. I'm just happy with the thought that God has His eternal plans for me and that His plans are perfect.

Now, I must assume at this point that you have already read the Koran and Buddhism sutra  and prayed about them also ---- to see if you get that "fuzzy feeling." If not, then why not? They are certainly scripture like. But if they do not fit the Bible are they more or less acceptable? And if the book of Mormon and the Pearl and the rest seem to contradict the Bible or add things that I cannot substantiate, should I care if I feel "fuzzy" while reading them?   

Edited December 5, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

7 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

As I little child growing up, I always considered the Bible to be God's communication to man. I didn't always understand how or why, but I did accept the Bible as God's Word. I'm sure some (if not most) of this is because of when and where I was born. I'm a baby-boomer and I was born not far from Philadelphia. My dad became a born-again Christian  (converted from Roman Catholicism) when I was about 4. I listened to presented by an elderly lady of the wordless book (black/sin, red/blood, white/washed as snow, gold/heaven). The 50's were a very family friendly time. Anyway, it was all about S A V A T I O N when it came to the "religion" I was exposed to. Once a person becomes saved, everything else then comes into play and not before. So, I'm not seeking to establish my celestial kingdom with an eternal wife. Such thoughts totally lack any of my concern. I'm just happy with the thought that God has His eternal plans for me and that His plans are perfect.

Now, I must assume at this point that you have already read the Koran and Buddhism sutra  and prayed about them also ---- to see if you get that "fuzzy feeling." If not, then why not? They are certainly scripture like. But if they do not fit the Bible are they more or less acceptable? And if the book of Mormon and the Pearl and the rest seem to contradict the Bible or add things that I cannot substantiate, should I care if I feel "fuzzy" while reading them?   

So in essence you don't know if the Bible is the word of God, but just considered it as such since you were taught that it was? How do you know that you weren't fooled? How do you even know you were saved? Did you get a, "fuzzy feeling?" Or are you just hoping in some kind of blind hope that it is true? Did you have a real spiritual experience? How would you describe it since you deem calling it a, "feeling," isn't credible?

As a matter of fact I have studied some of the Koran, Buddhism not so much, but a little, and have prayed about them too. Neither one was testified by the Holy Ghost as being scripture and truth to me. I was lead towards the truth and those things were not leading me to further truth than I already had, so I changed my studies towards the truth that I was being led to. The thing is, is that it was far more than any feeling, fuzzy or not, that let's me know what is and what isn't of God. Unfortunately from lack of better language, much of how to try and describe spiritual experiences, feelings are often times the closest way to describe them in mortal language, but those descriptions still lack proper conveyance of the experience to someone who has never had such an experience. When I was told by God in prayer that the BoM was indeed true, I was actually told that. It didn't come in the form of feelings, but in language, although I had a lot of feelings and emotions coming over me and actually felt His light and love penetrate my entire being. I actually didn't believe that the BoM would be true before that experience. I thought it was false, but got the exact opposite answer than what I expected, because I was deceived by propaganda.

Seeing how you believe in the false man made teaching of a rapture, no wonder you think that the BoM contradicts the Bible. You obviously don't understand what the Bible actually teaches. I suggest you pray more than just believe things because you were taught them. I'm glad you're happy with the thought that God has His eternal plans for you and that they are perfect, because He does and they are. Wouldn't it be better to not only have that thought, but to also hear His voice and get to know what those plans are, instead of just walking away from things because you cannot substantiate something you don't even have a full understanding of in the first place? Perhaps you are walking away from that plan just because you lack the faith to ask Heavenly Father if something is true or not. The thing is, is that you will never know if you don't pray and ask. What do you have to lose if you do? Either God will let you know that it is a lie, or you will know that it is indeed another testament that Christ is our savior and that he lives.

 

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, waveslider said:

So in essence you don't know if the Bible is the word of God, but just considered it as such since you were taught that it was? How do you know that you weren't fooled? How do you even know you were saved? Did you get a, "fuzzy feeling?" Or are you just hoping in some kind of blind hope that it is true? Did you have a real spiritual experience? How would you describe it since you deem calling it a, "feeling," isn't credible?

As a matter of fact I have studied some of the Koran, Buddhism not so much, but a little, and have prayed about them too. Neither one was testified by the Holy Ghost as being scripture and truth to me. I was lead towards the truth and those things were not leading me to further truth than I already had, so I changed my studies towards the truth that I was being led to. The thing is, is that it was far more than any feeling, fuzzy or not, that let's me know what is and what isn't of God. Unfortunately from lack of better language, much of how to try and describe spiritual experiences, feelings are often times the closest way to describe them in mortal language, but those descriptions still lack proper conveyance of the experience to someone who has never had such an experience. When I was told by God in prayer that the BoM was indeed true, I was actually told that. It didn't come in the form of feelings, but in language, although I had a lot of feelings and emotions coming over me and actually felt His light and love penetrate my entire being. I actually didn't believe that the BoM would be true before that experience. I thought it was false, but got the exact opposite answer than what I expected, because I was deceived by propaganda.

Seeing how you believe in the false man made teaching of a rapture, no wonder you think that the BoM contradicts the Bible. You obviously don't understand what the Bible actually teaches. I suggest you pray more than just believe things because you were taught them. I'm glad you're happy with the thought that God has His eternal plans for you and that they are perfect, because He does and they are. Wouldn't it be better to not only have that thought, but to also hear His voice and get to know what those plans are, instead of just walking away from things because you cannot substantiate something you don't even have a full understanding of in the first place? Perhaps you are walking away from that plan just because you lack the faith to ask Heavenly Father if something is true or not. The thing is, is that you will never know if you don't pray and ask. What do you have to lose if you do? Either God will let you know that it is a lie, or you will know that it is indeed another testament that Christ is our savior and that he lives.

 

Don't you believe in the man made teaching of baptism for the dead? Eternal marriage? Celestial Kingdom creation?   I've studied the Bible! I attended a variety of churches. And I have even attended Liberty Baptist College (now University). None of these ever claimed to have cornered the market professing either hidden truths or controlling the key of salvation. I was simply sharing where I came from and not where I am. I have read both the Bible and that book of Mormon. My salvation is not based on either the book of Mormon nor membership in the Church of "Jesus Christ" and the Latter Day Saints --- nor membership in any other organization for that matter.

I am a Saint. I'm saved through my faith in My Lord Christ (Messiah) Jesus. And I know this through the revealing testimony of the Holy Bible and the godly witness of other Saints I have encountered through my personal walk. I know where Jerusalem is --- where the Temple mount is --- where Bethlehem is ---- where Golgotha is (place of the skull) ---- where Gethsemane is. I know what Jesus did upon that cross. 

I must honestly say that the Bible reveals far more with regards to the Catching Away (Rapture) than baptism of the dead, eternal marriage, and celestial planning combined. However, you can attempt to prove me wrong using the Bible.

Edited December 5, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

7 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Don't you believe in the man made teaching of baptism for the dead? Eternal marriage? Celestial Kingdom creation?   I've studied the Bible! I attended a variety of churches. And I have even attended Liberty Baptist College (now University). None of these ever claimed to have cornered the market professing either hidden truths or controlling the key of salvation. I was simply sharing where I came from and not where I am. I have read both the Bible and that book of Mormon. My salvation is not based on either the book of Mormon nor membership in the Church of "Jesus Christ" and the Latter Day Saints --- nor membership in any other organization for that matter.

I am a Saint. I'm saved through my faith in My Lord Christ (Messiah) Jesus. And I know this through the revealing testimony of the Holy Bible and the godly witness of other Saints I have encountered through my personal walk. I know where Jerusalem is --- where the Temple mount is --- where Bethlehem is ---- where Golgotha is (place of the skull) ---- where Gethsemane is. I know what Jesus did upon that cross. 

I must honestly say that the Bible reveals far more with regards to the Catching Away (Rapture) than baptism of the dead, eternal marriage, and celestial planning combined. However, you can attempt to prove me wrong using the Bible.

How do you know that you are saved when it is only other human beings, all of which are flawed and have sinned, that tell you that you are saved? I have seen cases where the blind lead the blind and all of them are lost on other points of view, so why couldn't that be possible with this case as well. I am not saying that you aren't saved, only that you can't know for certain that you are actually saved unless Christ has told you so (usually through the Holy Ghost).

I'm not knocking your schooling, but a secular college/university isn't getting direct revelation from God. They don't even claim to, so to compare that with a living prophet and twelve living apostles who do claim to receive revelation doesn't make much sense. Have you ever wondered why the Pharisees and the like were at odds with what Christ was teaching, in His mortal ministry, and later his apostles after his death and resurrection? It is the same argument you seem to have. Do you deny that there is revelation still? If not then who gets revelation? Is God changeable? Did He stop revealing everything? If God did stop revealing things, how are you different than the group of people mentioned here, in prophecy, about what it would be like in our own days, now?:

"....Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...."
2 Timothy 3:5

How, even with all of your schooling, do you actually know that the Bible has all of God's words so completely that God can now change and not need to reveal anything else at all? Again it appears that you trust people only?

Each and every single place in the Bible that you say talks about the, "Rapture," is a complete misunderstanding of when it is talking about what will happen at the very end of tribulations, during the time when all the righteous dead will resurrect and all the righteous living will all rise together to meet Christ in the air. This will be at the actual time of the second coming of Christ. If you actually read the verses that relate to whatever verse you think refers to the fictional rapture, usually the previous and following few verses to which ever one you can think of, you will see that it is indeed talking about Christ's second coming, not a rapture before that coming and the years of tribulation start. The righteous will be in the air while the whole world burns along with Christ, cleansing the world from all unrighteousness for Christ to return in His full glory, to reign for a thousand years on Earth:

"1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2  ¶ But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
Malachi 4:1-3

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
2 Peter 3:10

You can't say that the Baptism for the Dead ritual didn't exist in the Bible. If you truly understand as much about the Bible as you say, you would realize that the Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection at all. Since Paul mentions the ritual of Baptism for the Dead, but doesn't say it is wrong to do, it is pretty apparent that it was indeed a common ritual. Paul instead uses their obedience to that rite to prove to them that there is indeed a resurrection and that their belief that there is no resurrection is what is wrong:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:29

It is apparent because the entire chapter is focused on the theme of resurrection. The Bible is definitely missing scripture (If I remember correctly there are about 17 books of scripture referenced in the Bible as we know it, that don't exist, and a few more that are questionable as to being referred to) that the people in those days thought of as scripture. perhaps it was man who kept out Baptism for the Dead from being taught as a correct ritual to perform just as Baptism for the living is a correct rite. As far as eternal marriage. The marriage that God gave to Adam and Eve occurred before death was introduced onto mankind, so it was indeed meant to be an eternal marriage.

Celestial Kingdom is in the Bible. It speaks of multiple heavens, of resurrected bodies that match whichever glory they will end up residing in, and many mansions in our Father's house:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
2 Corinthians 12:2

"39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"
1 Corinthians 15:39-43

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
John 14:2

Since God is the God of all of the world and the universe even, why would there only be scripture from one relatively small portion of the world, when we know that people were in other parts of the world at the same time. Is God a respecter of persons? Does He only want salvation to come to those who had access to the prophecies that occurred where the Bible took place at.

Again I would love for you to CFR that it is wrong to ask God, if scripture is indeed scripture from Himself? Unless you can, I can agree to disagree with you. Minds are like parachutes.... they have to be open in order to work properly. Perhaps it is time to stop relying solely upon the arm of flesh/mans wisdom and rely instead upon God's word which includes what is written in the bible, but also includes personal revelation from God through the Holy Ghost:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
John 16:13

 

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by waveslider
wrong wording

[LittleNipper]

5 hours ago, waveslider said:

How do you know that you are saved when it is only other human beings, all of which are flawed and have sinned, that tell you that you are saved? I have seen cases where the blind lead the blind and all of them are lost on other points of view, so why couldn't that be possible with this case as well. I am not saying that you aren't saved, only that you can't know for certain that you are actually saved unless Christ has told you so (usually through the Holy Ghost).

I'm not knocking your schooling, but a secular college/university isn't getting direct revelation from God. They don't even claim to, so to compare that with a living prophet and twelve living apostles who do claim to receive revelation doesn't make much sense. Have you ever wondered why the Pharisees and the like were at odds with what Christ was teaching, in His mortal ministry, and later his apostles after his death and resurrection? It is the same argument you seem to have. Do you deny that there is revelation still? If not then who gets revelation? Is God changeable? Did He stop revealing everything? If God did stop revealing things, how are you different than the group of people mentioned here, in prophecy, about what it would be like in our own days, now?:

"....Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...."
2 Timothy 3:5

How, even with all of your schooling, do you actually know that the Bible has all of God's words so completely that God can now change and not need to reveal anything else at all? Again it appears that you trust people only?

Each and every single place in the Bible that you say talks about the, "Rapture," is a complete misunderstanding of when it is talking about what will happen at the very end of tribulations, during the time when all the righteous dead will resurrect and all the righteous living will all rise together to meet Christ in the air. This will be at the actual time of the second coming of Christ. If you actually read the verses that relate to whatever verse you think refers to the fictional rapture, usually the previous and following few verses to which ever one you can think of, you will see that it is indeed talking about Christ's second coming, not a rapture before that coming and the years of tribulation start. The righteous will be in the air while the whole world burns along with Christ, cleansing the world from all unrighteousness for Christ to return in His full glory, to reign for a thousand years on Earth:

"1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2  ¶ But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
Malachi 4:1-3

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
2 Peter 3:10

You can't say that the Baptism for the Dead ritual didn't exist in the Bible. If you truly understand as much about the Bible as you say, you would realize that the Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection at all. Since Paul mentions the ritual of Baptism for the Dead, but doesn't say it is wrong to do, it is pretty apparent that it was indeed a common ritual. Paul instead uses their obedience to that rite to prove to them that there is indeed a resurrection and that their belief that there is no resurrection is what is wrong:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:29

It is apparent because the entire chapter is focused on the theme of resurrection. The Bible is definitely missing scripture (If I remember correctly there are about 17 books of scripture referenced in the Bible as we know it, that don't exist, and a few more that are questionable as to being referred to) that the people in those days thought of as scripture. perhaps it was man who kept out Baptism for the Dead from being taught as a correct ritual to perform just as Baptism for the living is a correct rite. As far as eternal marriage. The marriage that God gave to Adam and Eve occurred before death was introduced onto mankind, so it was indeed meant to be an eternal marriage.

Celestial Kingdom is in the Bible. It speaks of multiple heavens, of resurrected bodies that match whichever glory they will end up residing in, and many mansions in our Father's house:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
2 Corinthians 12:2

"39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"
1 Corinthians 15:39-43

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
John 14:2

Since God is the God of all of the world and the universe even, why would there only be scripture from one relatively small portion of the world, when we know that people were in other parts of the world at the same time. Is God a respecter of persons? Does He only want salvation to come to those who had access to the prophecies that occurred where the Bible took place at.

Again I would love for you to CFR that it is wrong to ask God, if scripture is indeed scripture from Himself? Unless you can, I can agree to disagree with you. Minds are like parachutes.... they have to be open in order to work properly. Perhaps it is time to stop relying solely upon the arm of flesh/mans wisdom and rely instead upon God's word which includes what is written in the bible, but also includes personal revelation from God through the Holy Ghost:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
John 16:13

 

 

Others are not telling me I'm saved. The Bible tells me I'm saved and explains how and why. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. By God's grace is one saved and not of works or someone might just boast. 

Baptism for the dead is a practice where a living person is baptized instead of the individual that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that is already dead.

The practice has as its basis a questionable evaluation of 1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will they do, those being immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they immersed on behalf of the dead?” This is a difficult passage to interpret, yet by comparing it with the rest of Scripture it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by someone else being immersed on his behalf, because immersion is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the absolute certainty of the resurrection and not focused on the dead.

What does being baptized for the dead mean? It is a peculiar passage, and there have been many different interpretations put forward.

1. The simple meaning of the Greek in verse 29 ---- Some individuals were being baptized on behalf of those who had died—and if there is no resurrection, why bother?

2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice Paul uses they, not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized.

3. Paul is not approving of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would such a custom take place?  Immersion for the dead is a practice that was common among the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today; but such cannot change a person's eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).

Edited December 6, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

Others are not telling me I'm saved. The Bible tells me I'm saved

Okay, that goes back to my question of how do you know that the Bible is the word of God?

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. By God's grace is one saved and not of works or someone might just boast. 

I too believe this. But being saved doesn't mean you should not do good works. Whom do we serve if we aren't doing good works? Serving the our Father in Heaven the way Christ has shown and taught us to do doesn't earn us salvation, but rather shows our love for Him, which is the first and great commandment.

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

Baptism for the dead is a practice where a living person is baptized instead of the individual that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that is already dead.

A public profession that the deceased can't do since there is no body anymore to do it, but it is also something more as well:

"3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
John 3:3-5

It looks like baptism is part of the atonement process that needs to be done, but baptism alone isn't going to save anyone, it still is through the grace of our Savior. If baptism wasn't important then how come the Savior was also baptized? Jesus himself told John the Baptist the answer of why:

"13  ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14  But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Matthew 3:13-17

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

yet by comparing it with the rest of Scripture it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by someone else being immersed on his behalf, because immersion is not a requirement for salvation in the first place

Comparing it with the rest of Scripture? Have you ever compared it to:

"book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14),

book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13; 2 Sam. 1: 18),

book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41),

book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29),

book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29),

book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29; 2 Chr. 9: 29),

prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29),

visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29; 2 Chr. 12: 15; 2 Chr. 13: 22),

book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15),

book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34),

sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33: 19),

an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9),

possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3: 3),

an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4: 16),

and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1: 14)."
J-L, Lost Books

And Christ told Nicodemus that baptism is necessary, unless not being able to even see heaven is part of being saved.

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the absolute certainty of the resurrection and not focused on the dead.

I assume you are talking about Romans 6 here and it explains how our works are part of utilizing the atonement, through baptism. Again I don't believe that works are what saves us because we have all already fallen short, even before turning to Christ, let alone all the times we make mistakes after deciding to follow Christ. It wouldn't matter how good our works are, it still will never pay for our sins. Only the grace of our loving Savior was able to take care of that for us. If you actually knew about the LDS church you would know that none of us believe that our own works can save us. We also know what Christ has said about keeping the commandments (works):

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:15

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

What does being baptized for the dead mean?

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

1. The simple meaning of the Greek in verse 29 ---- Some individuals were being baptized on behalf of those who had died—and if there is no resurrection, why bother?

Yes. I agree with that interpretation

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice Paul uses they, not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized.

 You conveniently left out this option: .....Or a righteous practice that is scriptural, but not in the limited scriptures we have access to within the Bible. (See above about the lost books of scripture, that were obviously regarded as scripture by those who wrote the Bible books we do have.)

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

3. Paul is not approving of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would such a custom take place?  Immersion for the dead is a practice that was common among the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn't change a person's eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).

While Paul is not out right approving of the practice of Baptism for the Dead, he also isn't condemning it either. CFR that Immersion for the dead was a practice that was common among the pagan religions of Greece. My buddy Google search is pretty quiet on the so called, "common practice," among pagan religions in Greece, when I just searched, "immersion for the dead practiced in Greece."

.... and how come you still haven't given a CFR for scripture teaching us not to pray to find out if scripture is from God or not?

Also since you said:

14 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I must honestly say that the Bible reveals far more with regards to the Catching Away (Rapture) than baptism of the dead, eternal marriage, and celestial planning combined. However, you can attempt to prove me wrong using the Bible.

But failed to even give one scripture that talks about a rapture that wasn't at the time of Christ's 2nd coming, I have to assume that like I have found there are none.... Not one... let alone more than all the ones I gave concerning Baptism for the Dead, Eternal Marriage, and the Celestial Kingdom combined. Instead you picked out the weakest scriptural reference I gave and tried to make it look like it wasn't talking about something that was definitely not a common practice among pagan religions, as far as what records we have access to, but seemed rather ordinary enough to Paul to use it like if it were something of importance to the gospel. One scripture is still more than none, weak or not.

We can do this type of thing as long as we are on this board, but it is all dancing around some very basic questions that you won't address. I have to assume that you are doing all of this because you lack the ability to answer those questions honestly.

[cdowis]

20 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The practice has as its basis a questionable evaluation of 1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will they do, those being immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they immersed on behalf of the dead?” This is a difficult passage to interpret, yet by comparing it with the rest of Scripture it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by someone else being immersed on his behalf, because immersion is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4).

Christ disagrees with you.  Mark 16:16, John 3 5
Peter disagrees with you  Acts 2: 37-38

 

The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the absolute certainty of the resurrection and not focused on the dead.

Paul is basically saying, "Why do THEY deny the resurrection if THEY are performing baptisms for the dead, if the dead are not resurrected?"  Note the use of THEY and not WE, because THEY deny the resurrection while THEY  do baptisms for the dead.  WE accept the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

What does being baptized for the dead mean? It is a peculiar passage, and there have been many different interpretations put forward.

You are exactly correct.  Paul explains  Eph 4:11-14 the necessity and requirement of apostles and prophets.  "One Lord, one faith, one baptism".

The historic Christians church, as you now obseved, replaced them with theologians and philosophers who argue and debate even over BASIC doctrines of salvation.

 

1. The simple meaning of the Greek in verse 29 ---- Some individuals were being baptized on behalf of those who had died—and if there is no resurrection, why bother?

Exactly.  Why do the "they" Christians reject the doctrine of the atonement when "they" Christians.... etc

2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice Paul uses they, not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized.

Is it possible that you are unable to see the third option?

3. Paul is not approving of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would such a custom take place?  Immersion for the dead is a practice that was common among the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today; but such cannot change a person's eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).

Peter disagrees with you  1 Peter 4:6