When was the last time you read the BoM?

[LittleNipper]

9 hours ago, waveslider said:

What you don't understand is that the Church doesn't always remain on Earth. People turn from the Lord and the truth is then taken. It is a cyclical pattern. With your line of thinking, what value is the words of God that preceded Noah's time. Talk about a complete failure.... It says the whole world was wicked and needed to be destroyed. A falling away was the reason why Christ had to re-establish His church because the Jews had turned from it. Perhaps the Jews' previous history might as well never have existed. It wasn't long after Christ ascended into Heaven that all the apostles and those who had the proper authority were all killed off and the gospel again has not remained on Earth. Should we just throw out everything Christ taught as he set up his church during the new testament writings, since it too was a failure in the sense that His church didn't just continue without corruption of it's pureness, or are you of the mindset that the Catholics did preserve the church complete with twelve apostles and a prophet? In that case why the need to reform anything? The BoM, although it speaks of failed civilizations that once had Christ's teachings and the gospel, doesn't mean that it should just be thrown out. Isn't there something to learn there? Or do you think that we are better now days and don't need to worry that the gospel can be corrupted from the teachings of men? Check out what the Bible says about these apostasies:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."
Isaiah 24:5

"For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee."
Isaiah 60:2

"11  ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12  And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Amos 8:11-12

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Matthew 24:5

"23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
Matthew 24:23-24

"66  ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"
John 6:66-67

"6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."
Galatians 1:6-7

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
2 Thessalonians 2:3

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
1 Timothy 4:1

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:5

"3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Timothy 4:3-4

"16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."
2 Peter 3:16-18

"1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
1 John 4:1-3

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
Jude 1:4

It isn't all grim because we are told that a restoration, refreshing, shall come again:

"19  ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22  For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23  And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24  Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."
Acts 3:19-24

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"
Ephesians 1:10

I believe in the Bible for the same reason I believe in the Book of Mormon. I have had both confirmed to me that they indeed carry the words of God within them, directly from God, via the Holy Ghost, and I still get those things borne witness to me as I continue to study both and learn new things that add to that testimony. So what could possibly be wrong with asking God if it is indeed another testament of Christ even though the people ended up falling away centuries later? It either is the word of God or it isn't. When I finally got an answer directly from God that the Book of Mormon truly contained the word of God, I actually didn't believe it could be possible based on what I had read and studied about it, up to that point. It really blew me away at the time! It has taken decades of study to really start to see the wisdom in how it is indeed the word of God, along with the Bible, through secular means of study as well.

I must beg to disagree, The Flood occurred prior to the Age of Grace. The Age of Grace regards salvation through the vicarious birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Prior to this man was under the dictates of the Law.  The pre-Flood "history" presents why we sin, why we need a Savior, who He is, and by what means He will enter this world. So it is necessary information. Now, Jesus the Messiah didn't come because anyone failed to keep the Law. The reality is that NO ONE can keep the Law. And Jesus said if one breaks any part of the Law, he has broken all of it..Jesus came to fulfill all the requirements of the Law and give His life as the ONLY perfect sacrifice. 

I do agree with you that there have been dark moments for the Church (the Church being not an organization, but the body of ALL believers in Christ). However as illustrated with Noah, there has up to this day always been (from the time of Christ's ascension until today) believers --- no matter how insignificant they may appear to the world in general. There were men who accepted Christ as their savior --- The Reformation, The Great Awakening, The Second Awakening, and even the Spiritual Crusades of the post war period (late 1940's into the 1950's).  The ultimate dark age will arrive with the Catching Away of the Church (body of ALL believers) and the ushering in the the 7 year time of Jacob's Troubles (The Tribulation Period). And this is what most of those verses you put forth are referencing. We are likely now in the Later days, as Israel has again been gathered back to his homeland and a generation will not pass before Jesus will come to receive His Church (body of ALL believers). Then Jesus and His Church will return to rule the entire world from Jerusalem.

[waveslider]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The ultimate dark age will arrive with the Catching Away of the Church (body of ALL believers) and the ushering in the the 7 year time of Jacob's Troubles (The Tribulation Period). And this is what most of those verses you put forth are referencing

Where do the scriptures say that all the believers are going to be caught away for 7 years?  Because everywhere in the Bible that speaks of the righteous being caught up to meet the Savior in the air, is talking about when the righteous dead will be resurrected and the righteous living will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air at the time Christ returns to the Earth to reign in righteousness for a millennium, not 7 years prior to His return.

[LittleNipper]

24 minutes ago, waveslider said:

Where do the scriptures say that all the believers are going to be caught away for 7 years?  Because everywhere in the Bible that speaks of the righteous being caught up to meet the Savior in the air, is talking about when the righteous dead will be resurrected and the righteous living will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air at the time Christ returns to the Earth to reign in righteousness for a millennium, not 7 years prior to His return.

Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time. Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, beginning with the Antichrist standing in the Temple of God --- declaring himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event occurs in the middle of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. They are somewhat correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nevertheless here remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is survive those 1,260 days (Matt 24:15-16). There isn't a way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events occurring as: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.  In Luke 12:36, the Bible states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. According to Jewish tradition the marriage supper takes place before the marriage. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time. Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, beginning with the Antichrist standing in the Temple of God --- declaring himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event occurs in the middle of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. They are somewhat correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nevertheless here remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is survive those 1,260 days (Matt 24:15-16). There isn't a way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events occurring as: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.  In Luke 12:36, the Bible states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. According to Jewish tradition the marriage supper takes place before the marriage. 

Let me restate my question; Where in the scriptures does it state that the righteous people will be taken up (as in a rapture) that is talking about a time before the tribulations? Each and every scripture that states that the righteous will be taken up to meet Christ in the air is talking about the time that Christ actually comes again at the second coming, at the very end of the tribulations, at the time of the resurrection of the righteous dead. There is no scriptural backing of a rapture as believed by many mainstream Christians. The teaching of a rapture is a man made fable. I am not worried as to the amount of time the tribulations will last. As a matter of fact, the scripture reference that you gave of Matthew saying how long the righteous will have to last, if you read further, makes it sound like the righteous will have to last the whole tribulation times, and that the time of tribulations will actually have to be shortened in order for the righteous to even survive it at all:

"21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Matthew 24:21-22

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by waveslider
forgot to add a claus to a sentence

[LittleNipper]

4 hours ago, waveslider said:

Where do the scriptures say that all the believers are going to be caught away for 7 years?  Because everywhere in the Bible that speaks of the righteous being caught up to meet the Savior in the air, is talking about when the righteous dead will be resurrected and the righteous living will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air at the time Christ returns to the Earth to reign in righteousness for a millennium, not 7 years prior to His return.

Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time. Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, beginning with the Antichrist standing in the Temple of God --- declaring himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event occures at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. They are somewhat correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nevertheless here remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is survive those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There isn't a way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events occurring as: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later. " In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. According to Jewish tradition the marriage supper takes place before the marriage. 

The Rapture (Latin) or Catching Away (English) is characterized in the New Testament as a " translation or resurrection coming" (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord receives His church, taking her to His Father' s house (John 14:3). On the other hand, Christ' s Second Advent bringing back His saints (the Church, Rev. 19) descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position.

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

17 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

The Rapture (Latin) or Catching Away (English) is characterized in the New Testament as a " translation or resurrection coming" (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord receives His church, taking her to His Father' s house (John 14:3). On the other hand, Christ' s Second Advent bringing back His saints (the Church, Rev. 19) descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position.

Are you trying to say the the resurrection of the righteous dead is going to happen at the start of the tribulations? And that Christ's second coming is going to happen at the start of the tribulations? The scripture references you gave here, that talk of translation, resurrection, the second coming of Christ, and the last trumpet sounding aren't talking about a time before the tribulations start, but rather at the very end of those tribulations. Unless your answer is yes to the first two questions in this paragraph, you still haven't answered this question:

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

Where in the scriptures does it state that the righteous people will be taken up (as in a rapture) that is talking about a time before the tribulations?

 

[LittleNipper]

8 hours ago, waveslider said:

Are you trying to say the the resurrection of the righteous dead is going to happen at the start of the tribulations? And that Christ's second coming is going to happen at the start of the tribulations? The scripture references you gave here, that talk of translation, resurrection, the second coming of Christ, and the last trumpet sounding aren't talking about a time before the tribulations start, but rather at the very end of those tribulations. Unless your answer is yes to the first two questions in this paragraph, you still haven't answered this question:

 

In the catching away, Christ meets His elect in the Clouds and doesn't touch the earth. This happens first and ushers in the Tribulation. There will be at that time no existing Christians (though a 144,000 Jews will in fact comprehend and reject the Anti-Christ mid-way through (3.5 years) who comes to world dominance ---- likely as the result of millions of missing individuals somehow "taken by aliens" or some other contrived excuse formulated. The send return to this world will happen when Christ returns with the body of raptured believers to depose the Anti-Christ and establish the Millennium Kingdom for 1000 years. Christ at this time will actually remain on earth as King of the line of David.

Anyway this seems to fit the Biblical text the best and has been revealed in these Latter days by various prophets presently preaching among the Body of All Believers. Clarence Larkins being one who has passed on but provided the book  (among others) Dispensational Truth.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

 

[waveslider]

6 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

In the catching away, Christ meets His elect in the Clouds and doesn't touch the earth. This happens first and ushers in the Tribulation. There will be at that time no existing Christians (though a 144,000 Jews will in fact comprehend and reject the Anti-Christ mid-way through (3.5 years) who comes to world dominance ---- likely as the result of millions of missing individuals somehow "taken by aliens" or some other contrived excuse formulated. The send return to this world will happen when Christ returns with the body of raptured believers to depose the Anti-Christ and establish the Millennium Kingdom for 1000 years. Christ at this time will actually remain on earth as King of the line of David.

I am well aware of the belief of what is contrived as the rapture. It's not what I asked for. I have studied this man made myth. When Christ returns to the Earth for his second coming it will be by coming down, through the clouds, where the dead and the living righteous will be resurrected and/or lifted up to meet him coming, in the clouds, while the Earth burns the last of the remnants of evil that survived the tribulations, in the final purification of the Earth, making it able to abide Christ's presence in His full glory. All the scripture references, if you actually read them in context with the verses both before and after them, speak of this second coming, not a rapture as taught by many mainstream Christian sects. Again I ask:

14 hours ago, waveslider said:

Where in the scriptures does it state that the righteous people will be taken up (as in a rapture) that is talking about a time before the tribulations?

---------

So you believe that there are prophecies, which equate to added scripture in my opinion, yet you refuse to even give the Book of Mormon a look at as being valid enough to actually read and pray to God to see if it is really of Him or not?

6 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Anyway this seems to fit the Biblical text the best and has been revealed in these Latter days by various prophets presently preaching among the Body of All Believers. Clarence Larkins being one who has passed on but provided the book  (among others) Dispensational Truth.

Are you saying that this book, "Dispensational Truth," is the scripture that speaks of the rapture as being correct doctrine? I personally don't belief that this guy is a prophet, but at least I can respect that you hold that to be true, if that is your belief. If this is your answer to my question that you keep not answering I will agree to disagree since his so called revelation of the rapture goes against what I have found in prayerful study of scripture and that I have had no witness of what he teaches as being true.

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

I am well aware of the belief of what is contrived as the rapture. It's not what I asked for. I have studied this man made myth. When Christ returns to the Earth for his second coming it will be by coming down, through the clouds, where the dead and the living righteous will be resurrected and/or lifted up to meet him coming, in the clouds, while the Earth burns the last of the remnants of evil that survived the tribulations, in the final purification of the Earth, making it able to abide Christ's presence in His full glory. All the scripture references, if you actually read them in context with the verses both before and after them, speak of this second coming, not a rapture as taught by many mainstream Christian sects. Again I ask:

---------

So you believe that there are prophecies, which equate to added scripture in my opinion, yet you refuse to even give the Book of Mormon a look at as being valid enough to actually read and pray to God to see if it is really of Him or not?

Are you saying that this book, "Dispensational Truth," is the scripture that speaks of the rapture as being correct doctrine? I personally don't belief that this guy is a prophet, but at least I can respect that you hold that to be true, if that is your belief. If this is your answer to my question that you keep not answering I will agree to disagree since his so called revelation of the rapture goes against what I have found in prayerful study of scripture and that I have had no witness of what he teaches as being true.

Why don't you pray about it? But you will have to read it all first. Perhaps God will send you a warm feeling in the bosom. It fits the Bible and it is most highly regarded. The Very Reverend Clarence Larkins designed the Illustrations, charts and lists --- I'm very sure with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The catching away while very biblical, has been more fully understood in these latter days...

Edited December 12, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

7 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Why don't you pray about it? But you will have to read it all first. Perhaps God will send you a warm feeling in the bosom. It fits the Bible and it is most highly regarded. The Very Reverend Clarence Larkins designed the Illustrations, charts and lists --- I'm very sure with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The catching away while very biblical, has been more fully understood in these latter days...

You can mock all you like, but you never have answered my question, Where in the scriptures does it say that there will be a, "catching away," before the tribulations? You say it fits the Bible. All I ask is where does it fit the Bible? Since you evade such questions I can only assume that you don't have any scriptures that state such. I have already found that there is absolutely nowhere in the whole Bible that says such a thing. All the, "Catching away," things within the Bible refer to Christ's second coming, at the time of the resurrection, at the end of the tribulations and at the sounding of the last trumpet, not before them. Nowhere does it say the Christ will take the people back up to Heaven, after meeting Him in the air on his way down, before He comes back down to the Earth again. I agree that the, "Catching away," is very Biblical, the catching away already is fully understood if you read the whole scriptures in their proper context, instead of taking bits and pieces out, wresting them to change their true meanings, latter days or not.

The Holy Spirit only testifies of truth, the teachings of the rapture aren't truth, otherwise he would testify that it is truth to me instead of showing me that it is a false man made teaching. I can only assume you have never had a true spiritual experience since you mock that it is just a warm feeling in the bosom. If you had a true spiritual experience you would know that there aren't any feelings that come close to describing the Holy Ghost's power, but alas we are only left to words that portray feelings to describe these experiences, since there are no words that properly describe them. If you were to give me a copy of that book, I would actually, prayerfully, read it. I don't mind wasting time, if it is important to someone. I don't have a closed mind, but since the Holy Ghost has already testified to me, that the scriptures about the resurrected and the living righteous being lifted up to meet Christ in the air, all pertain to when Christ comes down from Heaven through the air for His second coming, I doubt that he will testify that it is truth. If He did testify of it, I would go towards that truth. I wonder why you wouldn't at least do the same with the Book of Mormon, since it is readily accessible for free, in both it's electronic form as well as a printed copy, and prayer is something we all should already be doing anyway. Are you scared that God might tell you something different than what you already believe?

[LittleNipper]

21 hours ago, waveslider said:

You can mock all you like, but you never have answered my question, Where in the scriptures does it say that there will be a, "catching away," before the tribulations? You say it fits the Bible. All I ask is where does it fit the Bible? Since you evade such questions I can only assume that you don't have any scriptures that state such. I have already found that there is absolutely nowhere in the whole Bible that says such a thing. All the, "Catching away," things within the Bible refer to Christ's second coming, at the time of the resurrection, at the end of the tribulations and at the sounding of the last trumpet, not before them. Nowhere does it say the Christ will take the people back up to Heaven, after meeting Him in the air on his way down, before He comes back down to the Earth again. I agree that the, "Catching away," is very Biblical, the catching away already is fully understood if you read the whole scriptures in their proper context, instead of taking bits and pieces out, wresting them to change their true meanings, latter days or not.

The Holy Spirit only testifies of truth, the teachings of the rapture aren't truth, otherwise he would testify that it is truth to me instead of showing me that it is a false man made teaching. I can only assume you have never had a true spiritual experience since you mock that it is just a warm feeling in the bosom. If you had a true spiritual experience you would know that there aren't any feelings that come close to describing the Holy Ghost's power, but alas we are only left to words that portray feelings to describe these experiences, since there are no words that properly describe them. If you were to give me a copy of that book, I would actually, prayerfully, read it. I don't mind wasting time, if it is important to someone. I don't have a closed mind, but since the Holy Ghost has already testified to me, that the scriptures about the resurrected and the living righteous being lifted up to meet Christ in the air, all pertain to when Christ comes down from Heaven through the air for His second coming, I doubt that he will testify that it is truth. If He did testify of it, I would go towards that truth. I wonder why you wouldn't at least do the same with the Book of Mormon, since it is readily accessible for free, in both it's electronic form as well as a printed copy, and prayer is something we all should already be doing anyway. Are you scared that God might tell you something different than what you already believe?

Where exactly does it say it isn't? I am not mocking as you might suppose. I can imagine that one's select views can return to haunt that individual when he faces inconsistencies in own belief structure. This is why an individual is saved by grace and not by following all the rules ---- mistakes are certain. The catching away does not mention the Messiah's return but the fact that some will be caught away and others will be left behind. The issue is you have never had the privilege to fully read Dispensational Truth. I have at least read the Book of Mormon and I found it raises far more questions than it answers and does absolutely nothing to clarify or prove the Bible is trustworthy.. 

I'm sorry if you feel that the only way to know that something is true is by how you feel. The problem is that facts do not change and neither do God's promises, but a born-again individual remains saved even when he doesn't feel saved. That is the wonderful thing about real salvation.

Edited December 14, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

5 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Where exactly does it say it isn't?

 

On 12/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, waveslider said:

Each and every single place in the Bible that you say talks about the, "Rapture," is a complete misunderstanding of when it is talking about what will happen at the very end of tribulations, during the time when all the righteous dead will resurrect and all the righteous living will all rise together to meet Christ in the air. This will be at the actual time of the second coming of Christ. If you actually read the verses that relate to whatever verse you think refers to the fictional rapture, usually the previous and following few verses to which ever one you can think of, you will see that it is indeed talking about Christ's second coming, not a rapture before that coming and the years of tribulation start. The righteous will be in the air while the whole world burns along with Christ, cleansing the world from all unrighteousness for Christ to return in His full glory, to reign for a thousand years on Earth:

"1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2  ¶ But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
Malachi 4:1-3

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
2 Peter 3:10
 

and this too:

On 12/11/2016 at 4:11 PM, waveslider said:

"21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Matthew 24:21-22

 

If the days need to be shortened during the tribulations in order to save the elect, how can that be if they are already up in Heaven, safe and sound, as you say the, "rapture," states?

and this too, Note the words I bolded:

"29  ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:29-31

"24  ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Mark 13:24-27

"13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

"51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Nowhere in the scriptures does it talk about being caught up before the tribulations. No where does it say that the last trump will be blasted at two different time periods (before the tribulations, and again at the end of them). No where does it say that the resurrection of the elect will happen before the tribulations and again at the end of them. If you can't find a scripture reference stating that there is a time that the elect will be caught up before the tribulations, yet continue to state that it is such you should probably find a different discussion board since it against the rules on this one to state things that can't be backed up. I asked you multiple times to show me the scriptures that back your belief that the elect meeting Christ in the air happens before the tribulations. You ignored those requests and then finally try to turn it on me to find one that shows the opposite, in a lazy way of not having to search the scriptures for yourself and expecting me to do all the work for you, when it was your unsubstantiated claim that needed to be proven in the first place.

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I'm sorry if you feel that the only way to know that something is true is by how you feel.

I don't feel that the only way to know that something is true is by how I feel. That is a false premise and even though you say that your aren't mocking it comes off as such since I already stated, multiple times, that it isn't a feeling that lets me know when the Holy Ghost is testifying of truthfulness. Rather it's spiritual experiences that have no mortal words to properly describe them, and often times talking about feelings is the closest way of describing these experiences. These aren't feelings that come from within, but rather from an external member of the Godhead. I find it sad that you won't even pray about the Book of Mormon, nor even the Bible, to see if it is indeed from God and is truth, but rather you seem to just rely upon faulty man made thoughts. Just because the Book of Mormon brings up more questions doesn't make it not true. The Bible brings up more questions as well, so does that make it not true as well? Before I read it for the first time I had way less questions than I do now days.

Like I said, if you can show how to obtain a copy of your addition of what you view as latter day scripture, apart from the Bible, I would actually be willing to be open minded enough to prayerfully read it and see what is true about it, and what isn't. You can mock that prayer isn't needed to find truth, but I will lean on Christ's point of view and try, "....always to pray...," (Luke 18:1) and utilize the Holy Ghost, whom He has sent to "....guide.... (us) ...into all truth." (John 16:13)

 

 

 

[LittleNipper]

18 hours ago, waveslider said:

 

and this too:

If the days need to be shortened during the tribulations in order to save the elect, how can that be if they are already up in Heaven, safe and sound, as you say the, "rapture," states?

and this too, Note the words I bolded:

"29  ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:29-31

"24  ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Mark 13:24-27

"13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

"51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Nowhere in the scriptures does it talk about being caught up before the tribulations. No where does it say that the last trump will be blasted at two different time periods (before the tribulations, and again at the end of them). No where does it say that the resurrection of the elect will happen before the tribulations and again at the end of them. If you can't find a scripture reference stating that there is a time that the elect will be caught up before the tribulations, yet continue to state that it is such you should probably find a different discussion board since it against the rules on this one to state things that can't be backed up. I asked you multiple times to show me the scriptures that back your belief that the elect meeting Christ in the air happens before the tribulations. You ignored those requests and then finally try to turn it on me to find one that shows the opposite, in a lazy way of not having to search the scriptures for yourself and expecting me to do all the work for you, when it was your unsubstantiated claim that needed to be proven in the first place.

I don't feel that the only way to know that something is true is by how I feel. That is a false premise and even though you say that your aren't mocking it comes off as such since I already stated, multiple times, that it isn't a feeling that lets me know when the Holy Ghost is testifying of truthfulness. Rather it's spiritual experiences that have no mortal words to properly describe them, and often times talking about feelings is the closest way of describing these experiences. These aren't feelings that come from within, but rather from an external member of the Godhead. I find it sad that you won't even pray about the Book of Mormon, nor even the Bible, to see if it is indeed from God and is truth, but rather you seem to just rely upon faulty man made thoughts. Just because the Book of Mormon brings up more questions doesn't make it not true. The Bible brings up more questions as well, so does that make it not true as well? Before I read it for the first time I had way less questions than I do now days.

Like I said, if you can show how to obtain a copy of your addition of what you view as latter day scripture, apart from the Bible, I would actually be willing to be open minded enough to prayerfully read it and see what is true about it, and what isn't. You can mock that prayer isn't needed to find truth, but I will lean on Christ's point of view and try, "....always to pray...," (Luke 18:1) and utilize the Holy Ghost, whom He has sent to "....guide.... (us) ...into all truth." (John 16:13)

 

 

 

There will be people who will turn to Christ for salvation during the Tribulation period; however, you may wish to look at the verses again. and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 

 

The elect in heaven are those who were caught away earlier.

[waveslider]

3 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

There will be people who will turn to Christ for salvation during the Tribulation period; however, you may wish to look at the verses again. and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 

 

The elect in heaven are those who were caught away earlier.

Again! Where does the Bible say that people will be caught up before the tribulations? Where does that teaching come from? It comes from man, not scripture.

 

 

 

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

Again! Where does the Bible say that people will be caught up before the tribulations? Where does that teaching come from? It comes from man, not scripture.

 

 

 

I don't wish to give you a hard time; however, where in the Bible does it say go get baptized for the dead? Where in the Bible does it say marriage can be eternal? Where in the Bible does it say you are God's spirit baby sent down to earth from the Bible. The Bible clearly speaks of the rapture (Latin meaning catching away). Clearly some things are important. Salvation for one. If you do not know if you are saved that is an important issue that needs your immediate attention. And all this hinges on if you believe the Messiah (Christ in the Latin) is God and not just another god. I suggest you get a copy of Dispensational Truth. I'm sure one can be found on Ebay or Amazon. It is deep subject but not for the faint of heart or one depending on someone else telling you what to believe. 

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by LittleNipper

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The Bible clearly speaks of the rapture

Again, Where? Do you mean when it says, ".....and shall gather together his elect from the four winds from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.," at the time of His second coming? I've got news for you.... the second coming is at the end of the tribulations, not before the start of them. The elect in heaven obviously pertains to Enoch and those who lived righteously with him:

"23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
Genesis 5:23-24

"5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
Hebrews 11:5

I know you don't believe in LDS scripture, but this is an LDS discussions board:

"I am the same which have taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom....."
D&C 38:4

-----

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

If you do not know if you are saved that is an important issue that needs your immediate attention.

How do you know that you are saved? I know you already told me that it is because the Bible tells you that you are, but in that case how do you know that the Bible is absolutely correct on this? (note I am not saying it isn't correct. I am only asking how do you personally know this?)

You seem to assume that I don't know if I am going to be saved or not. I can definitely tell you that I do absolutely know, each and every time the Holy Spirit is with me, teaching me, comforting me, and showing me personal revelation, etc., but it isn't set in stone. I can choose to deny the Holy Ghost and never be able to be forgiven again:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Matthew 12:31

--------

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

And all this hinges on if you believe the Messiah (Christ in the Latin) is God and not just another god.

What are you saying here? That if I believe that the Son of God is the Messiah, as opposed to my Father in Heaven being my Messiah, I can't be saved? Your statement here makes no sense to me.

--------

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I suggest you get a copy of Dispensational Truth. I'm sure one can be found on Ebay or Amazon. It is deep subject but not for the faint of heart or one depending on someone else telling you what to believe. 

No thanks. I am not going to support false prophecy by purchasing a book that they receive royalties on. I have already studied for myself and know that the so called, "Rapture," is a false man made belief. It isn't a teaching from God.

I am sure that this philosophy of man is deep, but I would rather rely upon scripture, prayer, and the witness of the Holy Spirit of Truth. I am not the type that depends on someone telling me what to believe. Why would I need to do that when I have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost to teach me.

All this advice from someone who doesn't even believe that we should be praying to the source, God, to find out if something is from Him or not, sure seems very hypocritical to me.

[LittleNipper]

12 hours ago, waveslider said:

Again, Where? Do you mean when it says, ".....and shall gather together his elect from the four winds from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.," at the time of His second coming? I've got news for you.... the second coming is at the end of the tribulations, not before the start of them. The elect in heaven obviously pertains to Enoch and those who lived righteously with him:

"23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
Genesis 5:23-24

"5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
Hebrews 11:5

I know you don't believe in LDS scripture, but this is an LDS discussions board:

"I am the same which have taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom....."
D&C 38:4

-----

How do you know that you are saved? I know you already told me that it is because the Bible tells you that you are, but in that case how do you know that the Bible is absolutely correct on this? (note I am not saying it isn't correct. I am only asking how do you personally know this?)

You seem to assume that I don't know if I am going to be saved or not. I can definitely tell you that I do absolutely know, each and every time the Holy Spirit is with me, teaching me, comforting me, and showing me personal revelation, etc., but it isn't set in stone. I can choose to deny the Holy Ghost and never be able to be forgiven again:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Matthew 12:31

--------

What are you saying here? That if I believe that the Son of God is the Messiah, as opposed to my Father in Heaven being my Messiah, I can't be saved? Your statement here makes no sense to me.

--------

No thanks. I am not going to support false prophecy by purchasing a book that they receive royalties on. I have already studied for myself and know that the so called, "Rapture," is a false man made belief. It isn't a teaching from God.

I am sure that this philosophy of man is deep, but I would rather rely upon scripture, prayer, and the witness of the Holy Spirit of Truth. I am not the type that depends on someone telling me what to believe. Why would I need to do that when I have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost to teach me.

All this advice from someone who doesn't even believe that we should be praying to the source, God, to find out if something is from Him or not, sure seems very hypocritical to me.

Going to the Library or purchasing a book second or even third handed are not supporting anyone. Shame that you do not stick solely to the Bible. With spoon feeding you only get what others feel prone to serve you. The Holy Spirit is who comes to the door and knocks. Those who reject Christ are locking out the Holy Spirit and that rejection is not forgiven. Hell is eternal. 

No preaching.  This is a discussion board not a "call everyone to repentance who disagrees with me" board.   ~Mods

[waveslider]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Going to the Library or purchasing a book second or even third handed are not supporting anyone.

If I find it at the library I will check it out, but I am not going to purchase something that I already have been shown as being false doctrine. That equals a waste of money.

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Shame that you do not stick solely to the Bible. With spoon feeding you only get what others feel prone to serve you. The Holy Spirit is who comes to the door and knocks. Those who reject Christ are locking out the Holy Spirit and that rejection is not forgiven. Hell is eternal. 

You don't see the hypocrisy in your statements here? It seems you don't solely stick to the Bible since you keep telling me that I need to read this book that was written by supposed prophets, yet you won't even pray about the Book of Mormon and you tell me that, "Shame that you do not stick solely to the Bible." You also tell me, "With spoon feeding you only get what others feel prone to serve you," when you are trying to spoon feed me this nonsense that isn't even anywhere in the Bible. Who says I reject Christ and don't answer when the Holy Spirit knocks? Especially coming from someone who thinks it is a bad thing to pray to ask if scripture is indeed really from God or not. If this wasn't directed at me, then why say something that is completely redundant, since I already know this?

Perhaps you should check out what the scripture says about people who direct things like this to someone like me:

"4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matthew 7:4-5

As for this conversation. It is completely pointless when you refuse to CFR, multiple times where the Bible states the the righteous will be taken up before the tribulations start. I will now bow out of this ignorant nonsense you keep claiming without backing up. You can have the last word, but it still won't make your false statements true. There is nothing wrong with asking God if the Book of Mormon is true or not. Good luck with your fear mongering to get people to be saved. I would rather just keep my personal relationship with my Savior and Father in Heaven who dispels all fear and instead offers complete love.

[LittleNipper]

8 hours ago, waveslider said:

If I find it at the library I will check it out, but I am not going to purchase something that I already have been shown as being false doctrine. That equals a waste of money.

You don't see the hypocrisy in your statements here? It seems you don't solely stick to the Bible since you keep telling me that I need to read this book that was written by supposed prophets, yet you won't even pray about the Book of Mormon and you tell me that, "Shame that you do not stick solely to the Bible." You also tell me, "With spoon feeding you only get what others feel prone to serve you," when you are trying to spoon feed me this nonsense that isn't even anywhere in the Bible. Who says I reject Christ and don't answer when the Holy Spirit knocks? Especially coming from someone who thinks it is a bad thing to pray to ask if scripture is indeed really from God or not. If this wasn't directed at me, then why say something that is completely redundant, since I already know this?

Perhaps you should check out what the scripture says about people who direct things like this to someone like me:

"4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matthew 7:4-5

As for this conversation. It is completely pointless when you refuse to CFR, multiple times where the Bible states the the righteous will be taken up before the tribulations start. I will now bow out of this ignorant nonsense you keep claiming without backing up. You can have the last word, but it still won't make your false statements true. There is nothing wrong with asking God if the Book of Mormon is true or not. Good luck with your fear mongering to get people to be saved. I would rather just keep my personal relationship with my Savior and Father in Heaven who dispels all fear and instead offers complete love.

Fortunately for me, I do not consider Rev. Clarence Larkin's book anything but a study guide. Only the Bible is God's Word Although the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 applies specifically to the Book of Revelation, its principle must be applied to the entire revealed Word of God. I've read the Book of Mormon without any fear or threats from my fellow Christians. And yet I know not a few Mormons who are very hard pressed to read anything that they consider might be anti-Mormon or counter their doctrinal stance or the authority of those they regard as prophets.  So, don't concern yourself for me but rather consider what it is you really believe and how it is you got to this conclusion...  

Edited December 16, 2016 by LittleNipper

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Fortunately for me, I do not consider Rev. Clarence Larkin's book anything but a study guide. Only the Bible is God's Word Although the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 applies specifically to the Book of Revelation, its principle must be applied to the entire revealed Word of God. I've read the Book of Mormon without any fear or threats from my fellow Christians. And yet I know not a few Mormons who are very hard pressed to read anything that they consider might be anti-Mormon or counter their doctrinal stance or the authority of those they regard as prophets.  So, don't concern yourself for me but rather consider what it is you really believe and how it is you got to this conclusion...  

OK let's do this

How do you know the Bible is the word of God?  What evidence do you have?

There are many scriptures out there claiming to be the word of God- it seems you are not even aware they exist!  What about the Avesta?  Even the Koran?  What about the Bhagavad Gita?

The Bible is a collection of many books not even written by the alleged authors.   Are you aware of that?

And yes, I know every anti-Mormon argument there is!  Try me!

Edited December 16, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Going to the Library or purchasing a book second or even third handed are not supporting anyone. Shame that you do not stick solely to the Bible. With spoon feeding you only get what others feel prone to serve you. The Holy Spirit is who comes to the door and knocks. Those who reject Christ are locking out the Holy Spirit and that rejection is not forgiven. Hell is eternal. 

Says who?   The Bible?   You mean you follow the bible because the bible tells you to?

I have a couple of things I should tell you to do because I tell you to do them....

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, waveslider said:

If I find it at the library I will check it out, but I am not going to purchase something that I already have been shown as being false doctrine. That equals a waste of money.

You don't see the hypocrisy in your statements here? It seems you don't solely stick to the Bible since you keep telling me that I need to read this book that was written by supposed prophets, yet you won't even pray about the Book of Mormon and you tell me that, "Shame that you do not stick solely to the Bible." You also tell me, "With spoon feeding you only get what others feel prone to serve you," when you are trying to spoon feed me this nonsense that isn't even anywhere in the Bible. Who says I reject Christ and don't answer when the Holy Spirit knocks? Especially coming from someone who thinks it is a bad thing to pray to ask if scripture is indeed really from God or not. If this wasn't directed at me, then why say something that is completely redundant, since I already know this?

Perhaps you should check out what the scripture says about people who direct things like this to someone like me:

"4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matthew 7:4-5

As for this conversation. It is completely pointless when you refuse to CFR, multiple times where the Bible states the the righteous will be taken up before the tribulations start. I will now bow out of this ignorant nonsense you keep claiming without backing up. You can have the last word, but it still won't make your false statements true. There is nothing wrong with asking God if the Book of Mormon is true or not. Good luck with your fear mongering to get people to be saved. I would rather just keep my personal relationship with my Savior and Father in Heaven who dispels all fear and instead offers complete love.

The reality is that the only way to know that Jesus is the Christ and your PERSONAL savior is by having that revealed to you personally- then you KNOW you are "saved".

It's the same as a revelation about the BOM.

There were many eyewitnesses to the crucifixion who did not become Christians- if first hand objective evidence worked, that would not be the case.

You would see a man die on a cross- nothing more.   It must be revealed to you that THAT MAN was the Christ and your savior.  The fact the bible says it is nice but it must be proven in your own heart, just like the BOM.

[LittleNipper]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The reality is that the only way to know that Jesus is the Christ and your PERSONAL savior is by having that revealed to you personally- then you KNOW you are "saved".

It's the same as a revelation about the BOM.

There were many eyewitnesses to the crucifixion who did not become Christians- if first hand objective evidence worked, that would not be the case.

You would see a man die on a cross- nothing more.   It must be revealed to you that THAT MAN was the Christ and your savior.  The fact the bible says it is nice but it must be proven in your own heart, just like the BOM.

They had the darkening of the sky early on, an earthquake, the walking dead, and the ripping in two of the very thick tall curtain separating the Holy of Hollies from top to bottom. Even the Roman Centurion had to admit that this was the Son of God. Not your common everyday crucifixion. 

Yes I must admit that I had people around me explaining to me my need for a savior. Yet I had their lives as a witness, I had my own shortcoming as an example of my own sin nature, and I had a book which was written down by many different writers from a slew of backgrounds over thousands of years all in agreement. Everything was up front and above board. No hidden secrets. No special talents. No hidden knowledge. No hidden agendas. And I didn't have to attend a specific church (denomination). 

The Bible does say, "How shall they know without a preacher." However, this was directed to those who came to believe and it stands today. And that is what I do --- proclaim the Good News. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

They had the darkening of the sky early on, an earthquake, the walking dead, and the ripping in two of the very thick tall curtain separating the Holy of Hollies from top to bottom. Even the Roman Centurion had to admit that this was the Son of God. Not your common everyday crucifixion. 

Yes I must admit that I had people around me explaining to me my need for a savior. Yet I had their lives as a witness, I had my own shortcoming as an example of my own sin nature, and I had a book which was written down by many different writers from a slew of backgrounds over thousands of years all in agreement. Everything was up front and above board. No hidden secrets. No special talents. No hidden knowledge. No hidden agendas. And I didn't have to attend a specific church (denomination). 

The Bible does say, "How shall they know without a preacher." However, this was directed to those who came to believe and it stands today. And that is what I do --- proclaim the Good News. 

Circular, and this guy lacks the desire to question anything but what he thinks someone else believes, but I am busy today. Life is too short to bible bash. Have fun, guys.

Literalist preacher.. Believes because it's old. Sigh. Nothing here.

Back to the OP if there is one.