Happy Reformation Sunday - What's Your Favorite Doctrine from the Protestant Reformation?

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

.................................................................. Luther and Erasmus went back and forth, in epic fashion.  And Luther's replies compiled in On the Bondage of the Will should make any LDS think twice about their emphasis on free agency/agency.  Much has been made of little.   

..............................................................................

Free agency may even be the most important doctrine in Mormonism --  and it has much in common with the Arminian views of Methodism, even though the predestination of the Church of Scotland (Presbyterianism) is far more logical based on the theology of Hellenized Christianity, which is in turn incompatible with the Bible.

[Gray]

16 hours ago, Vance said:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

By your admitting that "Priesthood of Believers" is a Reformation doctrine you are admitting that it was fabricated, ergo false doctrine.

 

Which doctrines are not fabricated?

[boblloyd91]

40 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Free agency may even be the most important doctrine in Mormonism --  and it has much in common with the Arminian views of Methodism, even though the predestination of the Church of Scotland (Presbyterianism) is far more logical based on the theology of Hellenized Christianity, which is in turn incompatible with the Bible.

It seems in my studies, the only other Christian thinker that really believed in anything close to the ideas of Calvin or Luther involving predestination and the will was Augustine. Having said that, I know that Catholic apologists would tell us that Augustine was in no way any kind of Proto-Calvinist, as he believed in many Catholic Doctrines. I'm currently reading through the works of the Ante Nicene fathers, and I must say from what I've read so far, they seem to believe in free will being a part of choosing Christ, and receiving salvation. 

[hagoth7]

17 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Yes, it's a thing & today's the day!

:0)

In my experience, LDS speak positively about the Reformation & see it as important historical event.  But when confronted with any of the particular doctrines which emerged therein, the LDS reaction becomes quite different.  And we needn't look far for examples of what I'm talking about.  JLHPROF got three rep points yesterday for this little gem, dismissing the Reformation doctrine, "Priesthood of Believers."

So let's have a thread to the topic.  What, if anything, do LDS actually like about the Protestant Reformation, specific to its doctrines? 

--Erik

(Had to return to reply to this):

Beneficial outgrowths of a reformation:

1. Loving God's Word: an increase in genuine love/hunger for seeking/studying/pondering/following God's will.

2. Personal sacrifice: a willingness to lay down one's life (and/or to live one's life fully) to translate/share/study/live by the Word. (Waldensians, Tyndale, Anabaptists...)

3. Two Laws: A budding understanding that love is the higher law (hinted at by some well-known so-called reformers [but subsequently denied], believed and consecrated by many others whose names are generally not remembered kindly, if remembered at all).

4. How long?: The patience of those who are increasingly aware of the tragic human cost of a "Reformation" - a "Reformation" that instead swept a more genuine reformation under the carpet. 

5. Jewish appreciation: An appreciation for Jews who preserved much of the Bible for us...but who quietly suffered greatly for generations because a so-called Reformation supplanted a more genuine reformation.

6. God's word fulfilled: a fulfillment of tragic imagery in the Book of Revelation

7. Asking others the reason for their hope: Perhaps this is where someone here should ask what you happen to mean when you say "protestant reformation"...? 

[JLHPROF]

17 hours ago, Five Solas said:

What, if anything, do LDS actually like about the Protestant Reformation, specific to its doctrines?

Personally I love that it provided enough variety in doctrine and conflicting viewpoints that a young Joseph Smith was led to enter into a grove of trees seeking truth.
Absolutely the best result of Protestant doctrine.

[Vance]

9 hours ago, Gray said:

Which doctrines are not fabricated?

I should have been more specific.  "fabricated by the reformers".

[Atheist Mormon]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:17 PM, Five Solas said:

Yes, it's a thing & today's the day!

:0)

In my experience, LDS speak positively about the Reformation & see it as important historical event.  But when confronted with any of the particular doctrines which emerged therein, the LDS reaction becomes quite different.  And we needn't look far for examples of what I'm talking about.  JLHPROF got three rep points yesterday for this little gem, dismissing the Reformation doctrine, "Priesthood of Believers."

So let's have a thread to the topic.  What, if anything, do LDS actually like about the Protestant Reformation, specific to its doctrines? 

--Erik

Another chapter of Man's (not woman) using Religion to incite horrible chain of atrocities....I'm sure Martin Luther did not intend this, nevertheless it happened. Of course if anybody would deserve so richly it was Catholics.....And Martin Luther....what a guy, I'm sure he wasn't a pleasant person to interact, with his legendary antisemitism and other leadership virtues he just erased Catholicism from north Europe....at a terrible cost....

I find it very funny your usage of "happy" word......Sounds very ironic. 

End of the day though it fits what Jesus said "Destroy this Temple, I can build it in three days" . 

[Darren10]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:17 PM, Five Solas said:

Yes, it's a thing & today's the day!

:0)

In my experience, LDS speak positively about the Reformation & see it as important historical event.  But when confronted with any of the particular doctrines which emerged therein, the LDS reaction becomes quite different.  And we needn't look far for examples of what I'm talking about.  JLHPROF got three rep points yesterday for this little gem, dismissing the Reformation doctrine, "Priesthood of Believers."

So let's have a thread to the topic.  What, if anything, do LDS actually like about the Protestant Reformation, specific to its doctrines? 

--Erik

What I really like is how the Reformation resulted in placing more emphasis of individuals studying the Bible for themselves. It also injected a healthy does of reasoning into the gospel.

[Darren10]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:51 PM, The Nehor said:

Most converts were (and are?) Protestants of one stripe or another.

Except in Brazil.

[Darren10]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:58 PM, mfbukowski said:

Not in central America or LA.

But yes you are right that a fragmented Christianity was necessary for the restoration, and they certainly provided that.

I view the fragmentation as necessary too. I have what I call a "theological history" which I use historical events and relate them to the Restoration of the gospel. Part of it was that there had to have been a breakup of "theological monopoly". The Reformation took tightly held scripture and doctrines and allowed more access to them for the masses. That's essential for finding out "for oneself" if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

On another but related topic, the Reformation was absolutely necessary to form the United States as the uniquely free country it has been.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

I view the fragmentation as necessary too. I have what I call a "theological history" which I use historical events and relate them to the Restoration of the gospel. Part of it was that there had to have been a breakup of "theological monopoly". The Reformation took tightly held scripture and doctrines and allowed more access to them for the masses. That's essential for finding out "for oneself" if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

On another but related topic, the Reformation was absolutely necessary to form the United States as the uniquely free country it has been.

Yep we agree on that one also.

When you consider how bad communication was in those days, the distances involved, and the many cultural and religious traditions that were alternatives to Christianity, I think it was inevitable that there would be doctrines distorted and lost.  It would be like a game of "telephone" played over thousands of miles, with each person relaying to another what their understanding of Christianity was.  The gospels of course were not written contemporaneously with events, so they themselves do not represent the true teachings of Jesus except for the general jist of the message and probably the parables- main points that those who were there would have remembered.

But the message we assume, survived well enough to provide a seed-bed for the restoration.

Looking at this from a non-religious perspective (not my own) one might say that "what works" of Christianity is what survived, almost as part of an evolutionary process of what civilization needed to grow from the barbarism of Rome.   The message itself of forgiveness and love became a central feature of Western civilization as an ideal even if it was not followed well through religious wars, the crusades, etc.  The name and central concept of Jesus Christ as Son of God and Savior survived in that seed-bed of truth that made it through the ages.

I find it an interesting argument that some Christians make that there could not have been an apostasy because God would not have allowed it.

First of all, that postulates that God directly tampered with human agency in order to preserve the message, and secondly presumes that there WERE people on earth who were directly inspired to maintain the true message. 

THAT in turn assumes that the idea of prophets guiding the church is correct, which those who say there was no apostasy reject.

So the idea of "no apostasy" presumes prophets with revelation who can guide the church.  Catholics can logically claim that perfectly well, that teh Pope was that person on earth, but Protestants cannot.  They ostensibly reject this concept of authority.

Again it is the same problem- the reformers were supposedly "inspired" but yet not prophets, and those reformers didn't have "authority" from God, or at least no more than those around them who also had the "priesthood of all believers".   Yet the believers were in disagreement.

So even belief in the need for the Reformation is tacitly contradictory to me.

Supposedly Catholicism got it wrong, but there was no one more authorized to "get it right" than anyone else!

This conflict leads many to the idea that either the Catholics always had it, or that there WAS an apostasy inevitably and the need for a Restoration and with it, priesthood authority.

I have never understood the Protestant position and I suppose never will.

But I could also argue that the Reformation was an essential step- not because they "got it right" but precisely because they "got it wrong" and opened the door.  And of course the printing press was the technology that made this possible as well.

Now I would like to think that we are in a period of re-asserting the Restoration in this period of the internet which allows discussions like this one.

We LDS folks need to get rid of the relics of Protestantism which we have not yet eliminated, and this period of trial and grown and questioning those doctrines which never should have been part of the Restoration is now underway.  

I believe that this new assertion of the Restoration and returning to the scriptures is essential to the growth of the church.  Notions of unchanging truth for example are not Biblical, and could not be for a growing and living canon.  A Father who interacts with his children is not distant and unchanging.

The idea of infallible prophets who are beyond the foibles of humanity was never doctrinal, yet it is widely believed as part of the sectarian "unchanging God" perspective.   It never was true and definitely does not work today.

If we believe in a God who cries, we cannot see Him or his prophets as distant and inhuman.

Edited November 1, 2016 by mfbukowski

[cdowis]

For some Protestant churches, the elimination of elaborate rituals, and icons.   When I went from the Baptist church to an LDS meeting, it seemed very familiar.

Also personal prayer, rather memorized prayers.

[hagoth7]

On 10/30/2016 at 4:17 PM, Five Solas said:

In my experience, LDS speak positively about the Reformation & see it as important historical event.  But when confronted with any of the particular doctrines which emerged therein, the LDS reaction becomes quite different....

So let's have a thread to the topic.  What, if anything, do LDS actually like about the Protestant Reformation, specific to its doctrines?

 

Divine counsel teaches that after reproving sharply, one is then to show afterwards an increase of love, lest someone rashly concludes that you are their enemy. (Consider Hebrews 12)

I had the privilege to live for an extended time in a foreign country that was one of the earliest to adopt Reformation teachings. I rapidly grew to love the people there... and still hope to benefit them.

 

Things that I like about the Reformation beyond what I mentioned in an earlier post:

1) helping the less fortunate - demonstrated yet again in recently-initiated cooperation with another denomination

2) an ongoing emphasis on the importance of grace.

3) priests could marry and have children  - shattering the previous assertion that priests had to be celibate.

4) further strides in interpersonal dynamics - which was flatly rejected by many.

5) I also like what was mentioned earlier in the thread - that the Reformation broke up a megalithic group-think (or monopoly) on doctrine

 

Thanks for the opportunity to contribute to your thread.

In response, what do you like most about your faith?
 

[thesometimesaint]

For the record it isn't free agency. It is just agency. We are free to choose. We are not free from the results of that choice.

[Five Solas]

13 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

...

Thanks for the opportunity to contribute to your thread.

In response, what do you like most about your faith?
 

Certainly welcome.  If I had to pick a most valuable doctrine made prominent by the Reformers, it would have to be what Martin Luther called, "Wonderful Exchange" (sometimes referred to as the "Great Exchange").

That is the mystery which is rich in divine grace to sinners: wherein by a wonderful exchange our sins are no longer ours but Christ’s and the righteousness of Christ not Christ’s but ours. He has emptied Himself of His righteousness that He might clothe us with it, and fill us with it.

And He has taken our evils upon Himself that He might deliver us from them… in the same manner as He grieved and suffered in our sins, and was confounded, in the same manner we rejoice and glory in His righteousness.

--Martin Luther, Werke

To me, this is compelling.  Appreciate the question, hagoth7.

:0)

--Erik

[Anakin7]

Thank you for sharing Erik- my gift for you,  www.christian-history.org/sola-fide.html  . May True Grace be with you and those you love.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine - Bruce R. McConkie

Washing my Robe/Garment In His Blood - 3 Nephi 27:19

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by Anakin7

[Vance]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:17 PM, Five Solas said:

Yes, it's a thing & today's the day!

:0)

In my experience, LDS speak positively about the Reformation & see it as important historical event.  But when confronted with any of the particular doctrines which emerged therein, the LDS reaction becomes quite different.  And we needn't look far for examples of what I'm talking about.  JLHPROF got three rep points yesterday for this little gem, dismissing the Reformation doctrine, "Priesthood of Believers."

So let's have a thread to the topic.  What, if anything, do LDS actually like about the Protestant Reformation, specific to its doctrines? 

--Erik

The doctrine of the Reformation that is obviously true is the recognition of the Apostasy.

[Vance]

On 11/13/2016 at 6:23 PM, Five Solas said:

Certainly welcome.  If I had to pick a most valuable doctrine made prominent by the Reformers, it would have to be what Martin Luther called, "Wonderful Exchange" (sometimes referred to as the "Great Exchange").

That is the mystery which is rich in divine grace to sinners: wherein by a wonderful exchange our sins are no longer ours but Christ’s and the righteousness of Christ not Christ’s but ours. He has emptied Himself of His righteousness that He might clothe us with it, and fill us with it.

And He has taken our evils upon Himself that He might deliver us from them… in the same manner as He grieved and suffered in our sins, and was confounded, in the same manner we rejoice and glory in His righteousness.

--Martin Luther, Werke

To me, this is compelling.  Appreciate the question, hagoth7.

:0)

--Erik

Looks like he got it half right.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/31/2016 at 8:58 AM, Gray said:

Which doctrines are not fabricated?

Should I interpret that statement in the manner expected from Mark Bukowski (mfbukowski)?

[Gray]

On 11/19/2016 at 10:40 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Should I interpret that statement in the manner expected from Mark Bukowski (mfbukowski)?

I think so. Honestly I'm not sure what I was thinking when I fired it off