Misunderstanding the Scriptures

[etz]

Misunderstanding the Scriptures

What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads. - TPJS, p. 276

Luke 6:30 reads: Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Every Bible that I am aware of translates Luke 6:30 substantially the same.

This commandment is repeated at least twice more in scripture.

Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Two translators that I know of have rendered "ask" as "beg," but this is a distinction without a difference.

3 Nephi 12:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and there is significant evidence that the text was revealed word-for-word to Joseph Smith, with the language being Early Modern English.  3 Nephi 12:42 would seem to be, therefore, what Jesus wants us to do, in English: give to all who ask.

Therefore, there can be no dispute, if the scriptures are true, that the Lord has commanded us to give to every man that asks of us.  Let's assume that we want to serve the Lord, and give as he has commanded; how much should we give to them that ask?  The Golden Rule gives us guidance, and, perhaps not coincidentally, follows the commandment to give in the gospel of Luke.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

If you wish your requests to be fulfilled as you make them, then do likewise to others.

If, on the other hand, you wish your requests to be fulfilled with mere words, or denied, then do likewise to others.

On the other hand, the Golden Rule also gives guidance for the kinds of requests a disciple of Christ ought not make.  If the request is one that you would wish not to fulfill, then the Golden Rule means you ought not request it of others.  It follows that if you make a request of someone that, if the tables were turned, you would not want to grant, then you do not love your neighbor as yourself, neither do you love God, for you do not do what he asked, but do what he has asked you not to do.

Does God grant every request?  He says so.

Mormon 9:21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

If we are supposed to become Gods, exalted on high, then we are also going to be doing what he does - which is what he's asked us to do: give to every man that asketh.

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, etz said:

If we are supposed to become Gods, exalted on high, then we are also going to be doing what he does - which is what he's asked us to do: give to every man that asketh.

Mosiah 4:27, "And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order."

"Order" includes the way things are done in the holy order, and does not refer only to that which is done of our own goodwill or as prompted by the Holy Ghost.

Edited October 20, 2016 by CV75

[etz]

I confess that I do not understand how your response relates to the original topic.  Would you please make your full argument explicit, rather than implicit?

[CV75]

Since I am the only other poster so far, your post appears to be implicitly for me.

As saints, we are to follow this and every other commandment and rule of the Lord with all our heart, might, mind and strength.To do this, we are to use the tools the Lord has availed to us: the Gift of the Holy Ghost (wisdom) and the priesthood quorums and related structures in the Church (order). Our heart, might, mind and strength are beyond what we bring into this world within our person; they are also what is found in our reliance upon the Holy Ghost and the body of Christ.

Edited October 20, 2016 by CV75

[etz]

Then I suppose each nominal disciple of Christ may profit from answering the following questions.

1.  Has the Gift of the Holy Ghost taught me that I should disobey the commandments of Christ - the law of the Gospel - as they are contained in the Holy Scriptures, and as I covenanted to do at the altars of the Holy Temple?

If the answer to #1 is "yes," then: am I sure that this is the Gift of the Holy Ghost teaching me to disobey the law of the Gospel, or does variance with the Holy Scriptures indicate a deceiving spirit?

If the answer to #1 is "no," then we go on to question #2.

2.  Have the Priesthood Quorums taught me that I should disobey the commandments of Christ - the law of the Gospel - as they are contained in the Holy Scriptures, and as I covenanted to do at the altars of the Holy Temple?

If the answer to #2 is "yes," then: when men teach me to observe things which are at variance with the commandments, do I yield obedience to the men, or to God?

And that is properly a value proposition - a decision - that every nominal disciple of Christ must make for himself.  The decision is always to obey whoever is offering the greater reward.

If the answer to #2 is "no," then there is no discussion, since everyone's teachings are consistent with the commandments of Christ as contained in the Holy Scriptures.

Edited October 20, 2016 by etz

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, etz said:

Therefore, there can be no dispute, if the scriptures are true, that the Lord has commanded us to give to every man that asks of us.  Let's assume that we want to serve the Lord, and give as he has commanded; how much should we give to them that ask?  The Golden Rule gives us guidance, and, perhaps not coincidentally, follows the commandment to give in the gospel of Luke.

I think you may have stumbled upon the conflict between idealism and common sense.  Religion is useful only so far as it works, and the application of that scripture wouldn't really work.  There are an infinite number of people with an infinite number of needs, and if we were to give freely to "every man that asks of us" with no other consideration, would impoverish ourselves and quickly find ourselves standing in the same soup lines as the people we were trying to help.  This simply isn't a workable interpretation on the individual or church-wide level.

Could LDS be more charitable and less materialistic?  Without a doubt, and that scripture could serve as a useful reminder of the "ideal."  But to treat a strict interpretation of it like a commandment quickly ventures into an impractical line of action.

(I would also point out that Church history may have been written very differently if verse 29 had been literally interpreted and applied.)

[CV75]

1 hour ago, etz said:

The decision is always to obey whoever is offering the greater reward.

Actually, as a nominal disciple of Christ, I obey whoever I love the most since I cannot earn any reward.

[etz]

If the gospel were compatible with "common sense," there would be no persecution nor martyrdoms; everyone would keep the commandments.

Yet, instead, few keep the commandments, and those who openly teach them are persecuted, spitefully used, mocked, and reviled - and that's just on this forum.  Out IRL, teaching these things among nominal Christians, to say nothing of LDS Mormons, we might expect to be cast out, beaten, robbed, stoned, and slain.

Does it never occur to anyone to ask why Christ and the apostles and prophets and saints of ye olden days were mocked, persecuted, cast out, stoned, and slain, while pretty much none of that happens today except among the Muslims who are willing to kill over senseless abstractions?  It wasn't about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, neither was it about silly issues such as the embodiement of God; it was about what they said we must do to be saved in the kingdom of God - which was "give to every man that asketh thee," "if any man sue thee, let him win," "lay ye not up treasures for yourselves upon earth," "sell all that thou hast and distribute the proceeds to the poor," and the like.  That's crazy talk!  Surely Christ didn't mean it!

But he did.

Quote

Luke 6

46 ¶And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Edited October 20, 2016 by etz

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, etz said:

Misunderstanding the Scriptures

 

 

Luke 6:30 reads: Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Every Bible that I am aware of translates Luke 6:30 substantially the same.

This commandment is repeated at least twice more in scripture.

Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Two translators that I know of have rendered "ask" as "beg," but this is a distinction without a difference.

3 Nephi 12:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and there is significant evidence that the text was revealed word-for-word to Joseph Smith, with the language being Early Modern English.  3 Nephi 12:42 would seem to be, therefore, what Jesus wants us to do, in English: give to all who ask.

Therefore, there can be no dispute, if the scriptures are true, that the Lord has commanded us to give to every man that asks of us.  Let's assume that we want to serve the Lord, and give as he has commanded; how much should we give to them that ask?  The Golden Rule gives us guidance, and, perhaps not coincidentally, follows the commandment to give in the gospel of Luke.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

If you wish your requests to be fulfilled as you make them, then do likewise to others.

If, on the other hand, you wish your requests to be fulfilled with mere words, or denied, then do likewise to others.

On the other hand, the Golden Rule also gives guidance for the kinds of requests a disciple of Christ ought not make.  If the request is one that you would wish not to fulfill, then the Golden Rule means you ought not request it of others.  It follows that if you make a request of someone that, if the tables were turned, you would not want to grant, then you do not love your neighbor as yourself, neither do you love God, for you do not do what he asked, but do what he has asked you not to do.

Does God grant every request?  He says so.

 

 

If we are supposed to become Gods, exalted on high, then we are also going to be doing what he does - which is what he's asked us to do: give to every man that asketh.

This is the kind of literalism which is right on as far as I am concerned.

Nothing about science- the flood, 6000 year old world, etc.

We should take spiritual matters literally in my opinion.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, etz said:

"What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads. - TPJS, p. 276"

I've heard this quote before. An early call to fundamentalism. Unfortunately, if you want to understand the scriptures (or at least the intent behind the scriptures, and the historical context), a literal reading of the English text will not help you. 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Gray

[etz]

Men are in the habit, when the truth is exhibited by the servants of God, of saying, All is mystery; they have spoken in parables, and, therefore, are not to be understood. - TPJS, p. 96

 

Why is this the case?  Because of disbelief - which is hostility.

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, etz said:

 

 

 

Why is this the case?  Because of disbelief - which is hostility.

I think that's a pretty common 19th century "common sense realism" reaction. But again, if all you've got going for you is a literal reading of the text, you're really just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Historical context and higher criticism reveal a great deal more meaning within the scriptures than might first be evident in a shallow, literal reading. Not that you can get a lot of important information at the literal level as well - you certainly can, but you're going to miss most of the depth in the Bible. 

[etz]

It is interesting how the prophets, who stood in the divine council, like Joseph, tended to be literalists, like Joseph.  I wonder why there have been so few of them.

 

And I wonder why Joseph, who knew more from seeing heaven than anyone who read every word on the subject and who yet had not seen, would teach literalism as the way to understand the scriptures.

 

It's odd.  When men speak, we don't appeal to metaphor or parable to explain away things we don't believe; we straightforwardly call them liars.  Yet we seem to be not so keen on being so straightforward with God's words.  Double standard?

Edited October 20, 2016 by etz

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, etz said:

Then I suppose each nominal disciple of Christ may profit from answering the following questions.

1.  Has the Gift of the Holy Ghost taught me that I should disobey the commandments of Christ - the law of the Gospel - as they are contained in the Holy Scriptures, and as I covenanted to do at the altars of the Holy Temple?

If the answer to #1 is "yes," then: am I sure that this is the Gift of the Holy Ghost teaching me to disobey the law of the Gospel, or does variance with the Holy Scriptures indicate a deceiving spirit?

If the answer to #1 is "no," then we go on to question #2.

2.  Have the Priesthood Quorums taught me that I should disobey the commandments of Christ - the law of the Gospel - as they are contained in the Holy Scriptures, and as I covenanted to do at the altars of the Holy Temple?

If the answer to #2 is "yes," then: when men teach me to observe things which are at variance with the commandments, do I yield obedience to the men, or to God?

And that is properly a value proposition - a decision - that every nominal disciple of Christ must make for himself.  The decision is always to obey whoever is offering the greater reward.

If the answer to #2 is "no," then there is no discussion, since everyone's teachings are consistent with the commandments of Christ as contained in the Holy Scriptures.

I think we should always follow the Holy Spirit

The problem we have on this board is the question of what happens in the case where an individual believes the spirit has led him away from the church?

[etz]

I would find it more interesting when someone professes the Spirit has taught them to depart from keeping the commandments.

Loyalty to the Church only becomes an issue when the Church is held as one's fixed stake.

Joseph had a word about that, too.

“I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ [Job 38:11]; which I cannot subscribe to.”⁷

“I say to all those who are disposed to set up stakes for the Almighty, You will come short of the glory of God. To become a joint heir of the heirship of the Son, one must put away all his false traditions.”⁸

[Gray]

13 minutes ago, etz said:

It is interesting how the prophets, who stood in the divine council, like Joseph, tended to be literalists, like Joseph.  I wonder why there have been so few of them.

You know, the author of the gospel of John goes out of his way to make fun of literalists. I'm not sure why you would say that literalism is universal among the prophets. What could that inference be based on?

 

13 minutes ago, etz said:

And I wonder why Joseph, who knew more from seeing heaven than anyone who read every word on the subject and who yet had not seen, would teach literalism as the way to understand the scriptures.

Because as we all know Joseph was not well educated. He certainly didn't have the benefit of the state of academic Biblical studies in 2016. Joseph Smith's intent was to dispel "superstition" as he understood it, but he lacked the tools to do so.

 

13 minutes ago, etz said:

It's odd.  When men speak, we don't appeal to metaphor or parable to explain away things we don't believe; we straightforwardly call them liars.  Yet we seem to be not so keen on being so straightforward with God's words.  Double standard?

Jesus was constantly teaching in parables. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. 

[etz]

And Jesus always flagged his parables as parables.

[Kevin Christensen]

Regarding the Joseph Smith quote, " What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads." - TPJS, p. 276

This sounds good at first glance, but this is from the same Joseph who observed that "The different teachers of religion understood the same passages so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible."  And that Bible gives the parable of the Sower, which observes that the same seeds (words) can produce radically different harvests all depending on soil and nurture.  And in 2 Nephi 25 Nephi observes that we cannot understand the things of the Jews like them save we are taught their culture.  And in 3 Nephi Jesus observes that his listeners are weak, and cannot understand his words all at once, but need to go home and prepare their minds.  (And notice that no one there raised their hands and said, "But, if you are God, and all, can't you just tell us in plain language and save the trouble of having to study and prepare?")  And there are the numerous quotations and allusions to Isaiah 6 on having eyes and not seeing, and ears and not hearing.  And elsewhere Joseph Smith explained that his approach to interpreting parables was to look back at the question that drew the parable out, that is, he did give thought to the need to contextualize as a guide to interpretation.  Of course, he was dealing with the fashion to turn everything into symbols, parables, and metaphors, but language and scripture is permeated with symbols, parables, and metaphors.  Many things are both literal and symbolic at once.  

The point of all of this is that there is always interpretation going on in any attempt at communication.  A claim that a person is doing no interpretation at all, but is rather understanding a text "precisely at it reads" can be either an attempt to forestall criticism, or a refusal to consider the beams which mine be in place in one's own eyes.  Beam removal precedes "seeing clearly."

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[etz]

Calling things which aren't flagged as parables "parables" spares us the difficulty of explaining that we don't believe what God has said, or that we don't believe what the prophets have reported God has said.

But we really don't have that option with respect to the commandments, do we?  "Give to every man that asketh thee."  Metaphor?  Simile?  Parable?  Simplistic and naive idealism?  Or literal instruction?

How would a little child understand such a command from his parents?

[etz]

So it comes down to this: is there any genuine confusion about the commandments of Christ as contained in the Sermon on the Mount?

It doesn't seem so.

If therefore Christ lived on the earth as the scriptures say, and this literally, taught what the scriptures say he taught, and this literally, and was actually the Son of God, and this literally, and if his commandments are understood, then what is stopping you, whoever you are, from actually doing the things you understand Christ to have commanded you to do?

[Doctrine 612]

This scriptures is easy to do,

if someone were to ask of me somethieng that I can in my own power do for them I will buy if it's out of my realm, then I will try and find someone who can help them. Example: a friend, the bishop, the government services, ect.. Then the other half of the scripture tells me not to say hey now that I helped you, you now owe me something.

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, etz said:

Misunderstanding the Scriptures

 

 

Luke 6:30 reads: Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Every Bible that I am aware of translates Luke 6:30 substantially the same.

This commandment is repeated at least twice more in scripture.

Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Two translators that I know of have rendered "ask" as "beg," but this is a distinction without a difference.

3 Nephi 12:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and there is significant evidence that the text was revealed word-for-word to Joseph Smith, with the language being Early Modern English.  3 Nephi 12:42 would seem to be, therefore, what Jesus wants us to do, in English: give to all who ask.

Therefore, there can be no dispute, if the scriptures are true, that the Lord has commanded us to give to every man that asks of us.  Let's assume that we want to serve the Lord, and give as he has commanded; how much should we give to them that ask?  The Golden Rule gives us guidance, and, perhaps not coincidentally, follows the commandment to give in the gospel of Luke.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

If you wish your requests to be fulfilled as you make them, then do likewise to others.

If, on the other hand, you wish your requests to be fulfilled with mere words, or denied, then do likewise to others.

On the other hand, the Golden Rule also gives guidance for the kinds of requests a disciple of Christ ought not make.  If the request is one that you would wish not to fulfill, then the Golden Rule means you ought not request it of others.  It follows that if you make a request of someone that, if the tables were turned, you would not want to grant, then you do not love your neighbor as yourself, neither do you love God, for you do not do what he asked, but do what he has asked you not to do.

Does God grant every request?  He says so.

 

 

If we are supposed to become Gods, exalted on high, then we are also going to be doing what he does - which is what he's asked us to do: give to every man that asketh.

This is a case where the BoM helps clarify the Bible so we can find what is actually meant for us to do:

"22  And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23  I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.
24  And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25  And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received."
Mosiah 4:22-25

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, etz said:

So it comes down to this: is there any genuine confusion about the commandments of Christ as contained in the Sermon on the Mount?

It doesn't seem so.

If therefore Christ lived on the earth as the scriptures say, and this literally, taught what the scriptures say he taught, and this literally, and was actually the Son of God, and this literally, and if his commandments are understood, then what is stopping you, whoever you are, from actually doing the things you understand Christ to have commanded you to do?

Interesting argument with a lot of "ifs".  I agree with you but it is all those ifs that get in the way for people.

And then as Kevin points out- there is still ambiguity.  "Thou shalt not kill"- does that include defending your country?  Other biblical commands given to kill Canaanites?  Self defense?

Does the commandment against adultery include other sexual activities?  Which precise activities fall under "coveting"? 

Edited October 20, 2016 by mfbukowski

[etz]

Coveting is the mere desire to possess, retain, withhold, or gain "stuff."

And, if you don't mind, I'm more interested in what difficulties of "interpretation" prevent the understanding, and the execution, of the commandments of God, as delivered by Jesus Christ to both the Jews and the Nephites.  I'm of the opinion there are, in actuality, none.

[etz]

17 minutes ago, waveslider said:

This is a case where the BoM helps clarify the Bible so we can find what is actually meant for us to do:

"22  And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23  I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.
24  And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25  And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received."
Mosiah 4:22-25

You have conflated two seperate commandments: the commandment to give to every man that asketh (3 Nephi 12:42), and the commandment to give alms (3 Nephi 13:1-4).