Atheist Mormon Posted October 22, 2016 Author Posted October 22, 2016 Just now, mfbukowski said: So then you repudiate the OP statement, right? How is a random mutation "bad"? Just looking for consistency No I don't.....There's nothing good or bad about mutations....We interpret them as such...
mfbukowski Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: No I don't.....There's nothing good or bad about mutations....We interpret them as such... We don't seem to understand each other well. Thanks for the discussions. Bye.
Calm Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: I wouldn't use the terms "good" or "bad" except in the most general nonspecific sense. If that random mutation promotes the viability of a species it can be said to be good. OTOH it that random mutation limits viability it can be said to be bad. What about all the species that suffer if that species improves in survival/reproduction ability?
thesometimesaint Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 Such is evolution, it is based on those that reproduce win.
Atheist Mormon Posted October 22, 2016 Author Posted October 22, 2016 13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Such is evolution, it is based on those that reproduce win. I can't believe you made life all about sex!!!!!!
rodheadlee Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: No I don't.....There's nothing good or bad about mutations....We interpret them as such... Hey, were you going to answer my question? OK I have a question for you atheists. Where did our consciousness come from? How did it evolve? Edited October 23, 2016 by rodheadlee
Atheist Mormon Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 26 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Hey, were you going to answer my question? OK I have a question for you atheists. Where did our consciousness come from? How did it evolve? Oh that's easy, it was the chicken before the egg.... Now that I answered your question, you answer mine.....I think we agree that our brain is the finest intelligent organ there is....If you think An intelligent being created it then how come I don't know it? I've been a member forever, before then I was orthodox Christian...The problem was that I had to take somebody else's word for it. God was busy to make himself known to me. Besides that He (God) made such a mess of making himself known to people, it is worse than Tower of Babel confusion. Now we have 39.999 different versions of God. My favorite Christian History Author Bart Ehrman has several good books about Judeo-Christian History, read Him. His knowledge about Christianity is indispensable.
rodheadlee Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: Oh that's easy, it was the chicken before the egg.... Now that I answered your question, you answer mine.....I think we agree that our brain is the finest intelligent organ there is....If you think An intelligent being created it then how come I don't know it? I've been a member forever, before then I was orthodox Christian...The problem was that I had to take somebody else's word for it. God was busy to make himself known to me. Besides that He (God) made such a mess of making himself known to people, it is worse than Tower of Babel confusion. Now we have 39.999 different versions of God. My favorite Christian History Author Bart Ehrman has several good books about Judeo-Christian History, read Him. His knowledge about Christianity is indispensable. Gosh I don't know. He made Himself known to me, maybe it's your attitude?
Atheist Mormon Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 1 minute ago, rodheadlee said: Gosh I don't know. He made Himself known to me, maybe it's your attitude? Oh, yes definitely my attitude, I spent most of my (when I was not working) life in Utah's deserts, got lost ate cactuses, drink my own urine to survive, begged drop of water...Good thing I didn't waste ton of time for following Jesus. How could He make himself known to me, if He is a fictional character (which I know). I run run a business, I don't play hide-seek games, the paychecks I sign every week must be real otherwise none of the employees will be back and yet we are getting these rain checks (worst of all, deferred for eternity).... I mean sometime It has to click, down on us...like Dorothy who discovered The Wizard....
waveslider Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Oh, yes definitely my attitude, I spent most of my (when I was not working) life in Utah's deserts, got lost ate cactuses, drink my own urine to survive, begged drop of water...Good thing I didn't waste ton of time for following Jesus. How could He make himself known to me, if He is a fictional character (which I know). I run run a business, I don't play hide-seek games, the paychecks I sign every week must be real otherwise none of the employees will be back and yet we are getting these rain checks (worst of all, deferred for eternity).... I mean sometime It has to click, down on us...like Dorothy who discovered The Wizard.... Perhaps it is more because we come to mortality kind of spiritually like Hellen Keller, deaf, dumb and blind, (In a spiritual sense) because of the fall and the veil of forgetfulness. Perhaps we don't always hear the Lord speaking to us because we can't yet differentiate the patterns of speech and only think they are just random happenings. Like Hellen's hands being put under water as the word water was signed in her hands. She didn't understand at first, but then all of a sudden she realized that she was being spoken to all along. Our lack of recognition doesn't mean that something isn't there. I found this to be true for me anyway. I thought I had never received an answer to prayer for the first 18 years of my life. After I finally had a tangible answer, I reflected upon my life and found that indeed I had many prayers answered, just not so dramatically, but I had just not recognized it at all. Just a thought anyway. 4
thesometimesaint Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I can't believe you made life all about sex!!!!!! There is asexual reproduction too.
Atheist Mormon Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: There is asexual reproduction too. 9 hours ago, waveslider said: Perhaps it is more because we come to mortality kind of spiritually like Hellen Keller, deaf, dumb and blind, (In a spiritual sense) because of the fall and the veil of forgetfulness. Perhaps we don't always hear the Lord speaking to us because we can't yet differentiate the patterns of speech and only think they are just random happenings. Like Hellen's hands being put under water as the word water was signed in her hands. She didn't understand at first, but then all of a sudden she realized that she was being spoken to all along. Our lack of recognition doesn't mean that something isn't there. I found this to be true for me anyway. I thought I had never received an answer to prayer for the first 18 years of my life. After I finally had a tangible answer, I reflected upon my life and found that indeed I had many prayers answered, just not so dramatically, but I had just not recognized it at all. Just a thought anyway. This is what your religion wants you to think (great analogy btw). You are no Helen Keller by any stretch of imagination. You (or I) are the luckiest intelligent beings to live using all the senses available to us. Why would you want to practice blindness? Those eyesights are given to you after countless eons of evolutionary trials and errors, (you can easily find the components of the evolutionary process, how gradually we acquired stereoscopic vision........).
thesometimesaint Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: This is what your religion wants you to think (great analogy btw). You are no Helen Keller by any stretch of imagination. You (or I) are the luckiest intelligent beings to live using all the senses available to us. Why would you want to practice blindness? Those eyesights are given to you after countless eons of evolutionary trials and errors, (you can easily find the components of the evolutionary process, how gradually we acquired stereoscopic vision........). I have no problem with evolution just like I have no problem with God. To me Evolution is how God created us, our world, and universe.
Atheist Mormon Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 23 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I have no problem with evolution just like I have no problem with God. To me Evolution is how God created us, our world, and universe. I can respect that hypothesis.......
BlueDreams Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) On October 19, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Johnnie Cake said: Then you're watching Westworld I take it... cuz if you are not...that kind of proves my point. No it doesn't. For example, I don't watch it, because I've never heard of it and I don't own a TV. Like a lot of my generation I watch most of my stuff through Netflix and Hulu. If it doesn't show there I don't have access. And then there's what I prefer to consume due to "mental conditioning." I prefer the word spiritual sensitivities and personal choice. I do watch some R/MA rated stuff, depending what's in it and how much. And with VidAngel a lot more cuz I can block stuff. From the preview, west world is something I would consider. I like jj Abrams I like scifi. You know. If I had HBO. But assuming we're all mentally conditioned the same in what we're willing to see and that's the reason most of UT won't watch this is insulting and false. with luv, BD Edited October 23, 2016 by BlueDreams 2
waveslider Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: This is what your religion wants you to think (great analogy btw). You are no Helen Keller by any stretch of imagination. You (or I) are the luckiest intelligent beings to live using all the senses available to us. Why would you want to practice blindness? Those eyesights are given to you after countless eons of evolutionary trials and errors, (you can easily find the components of the evolutionary process, how gradually we acquired stereoscopic vision........). Apparently you missed this part of my post: 14 hours ago, waveslider said: (In a spiritual sense) Do you see God? Do you see spirits? Isn't this blindness since they are real? Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Have you ever seen wind? I'm not talking about the affects of wind, but the wind itself. I know you believe that exists, but it remains unseen.
BlueDreams Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: This is what your religion wants you to think (great analogy btw). You are no Helen Keller by any stretch of imagination. You (or I) are the luckiest intelligent beings to live using all the senses available to us. Why would you want to practice blindness? Those eyesights are given to you after countless eons of evolutionary trials and errors, (you can easily find the components of the evolutionary process, how gradually we acquired stereoscopic vision........). First, it's definitely a value stretch to say we're the luckiest intelligent beings to live when it come to our vision sensory capacities. Our countless eons of evolutionary fixer-uppers personally gave me (and all of us) eyes miles behind a random crustacean in the ocean. And in varying areas such as night vision, crappier than a number of other species. Just saying, I would personally love to see ultraviolet. Second, as to why would you want to practice blindness. Ironically on a youtube binge I found this little video where a boys tragic accident that left him personally blind he later contributed to allowing him to escape the trapping of a poverty laden community Personally I'm not blind. But without the piece of plastic resting on my eyeballs right now, the world would look similar to a constant van gogh...but worse. When I went, I wasn't really aware that my vision was even all that bad. I was a stubborn child and insisted that I didn't need glasses (I still hate them). That I could still see shapes and if I was close enough to the board (read front row, leaning forward, and squinting) I could figure out what was written. Why would I need to see some stupid letter 30 ft away (obviously, I went before driving age) or the details of my friends faces (even though walking past them without smiling was probably giving a number of people the false idea that I was stuck up). And then I got contacts. The first day, I had one contact only because the great instructor didn't realize I'd dropped the other and had me poke my other eye for half an hour. But still without one contact I still remember the wonder I had as I looked out the car window and realized I could see the leaves on the tree and the detail of the clouds. That there were details to be had. On physically not seeing really good at all, it had a lot of down sides: headaches, among the ones I already mentioned. But I can name at least 2 things that I do attribute to that period of "blindness." I have really good night vision. I may have naturally had a leg up, but I don't think that's fully it. during this time, I learned to trust shapes and to move in the lack of detail with confidence. I learned to recognize shapes without needing details to clue me in. I still find wonder and appreciation in detail. Again this may have to do with some nice alignment of genetics that's left me artistic, but I still sit in wonder at details and the world, longer than most. I've never stopped appreciating the details. I see variations of color more easily too. Obviously we're not talking about physical blindness, we're talking about spiritual. That one is more complicated. I have never not believed in God but I have definitely grown in understanding and "seeing" spiritually. I think there is value in that development. One is that I don't take it for granted. Another is that I have a sense of necessity in God. Currently spiritual vision is like my contacts. Yeah, I can go back to blindness, but it feels like a real loss and devaluing a gift. Likewise, I still remember the experience that "opened" my eyes more to a larger range of spirituality. The sense that I am not alone ever and that God is there constantly that I could have more access was a very different but similarly profound as the first time i had one contact on my eye. I appreciate the time of spiritual "blindness" and though it still at times frustrates me that I "can't see" entirely clear spiritually, I get it more. Another is that, unlike contacts, the experience of receiving this sight is more an experience of becoming something new. Different. Something that only experience can bring. I think this ties into some of this discussion as well. But I don't have time to say more. I'll answer more fully later. With luv, BD 3
BlueDreams Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Some of this dialogue seems to me a discussion of how we view how a god "should" create. The one that I read from cinepro and the over-simplified version that is being propped up on the OP both run on the assumption the the grand universe should work like how I play the Sims (i.e. Adult dolls). Creating a theme and universe is a formulaic construct. Everything has its immediate purpose. And you do a few things that are more "creative" just because. Characters have "free will" until they don't and you direct them pretty dang clearly as you please. Personally I haven't seen God that way in a long time and the more I know if God the less I see him that way. With basic personal analogies, I see God's creation in the same way I see painting. There's still a design followed but there is individual manifestations abd purpose in the same materials, it's creation is more complicated. Likewise readings of creation indications a more complex creation, particularly of humanity. Creation in the PoGP is talked of being guided to see that They will be obeyed. Further more the basic building blocks of creation (intelligence derived of the light of truth) are described in the d&c as truth being independent in the sphere that it is place in. Likewise there is a scripture in Ecclesiastes that states that the eternal is placed within us. In short I see version through lds teachings and scriptures as an ordering that allows for a wide and complex expression of light and truth that is both independent and interweaves :interacts in it's own way and time and season and place. Plus this world is considered fallen...or if you will this creations isn't entirely "done" or "perfect" but in the first steps of a more perfect expression of said light and truth. Plus our vision is still often like me without contacts. One is welcome to perceive the evolution and creation of life as a series of odd mistakes and random occurrences that happened to work every once and a while in given circumstances. But oversimplifying another perspective doesn't increase the validations of another. The Creation I believe in is echoed in my own soul and it has always resonated with the creation that is more complex, diverse, and mutilayered/faceted. A world in perpetuate evolution mirrors what I already believe. I don't believe that there is no order or goal or expression of truth just because my eyes do not see clearly the details of all creation With liv, BD 1
rodheadlee Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 20 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Oh, yes definitely my attitude, I spent most of my (when I was not working) life in Utah's deserts, got lost ate cactuses, drink my own urine to survive, begged drop of water...Good thing I didn't waste ton of time for following Jesus. How could He make himself known to me, if He is a fictional character (which I know). I run run a business, I don't play hide-seek games, the paychecks I sign every week must be real otherwise none of the employees will be back and yet we are getting these rain checks (worst of all, deferred for eternity).... I mean sometime It has to click, down on us...like Dorothy who discovered The Wizard.... Well your still breathing, right? So how do you know you didn't have help?
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