A revelation about Evolution of crucial importance

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I feel like there are two different discussions going on.  Very strange.

I feel like that a lot lately hereabouts.  Short attention spans and little comprehension. 

[Atheist Mormon]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you guys not reading what he says? Mistakes require an intelligence that errs; if it is random, it cannot be labeled a mistake.  

Mistakes, failures...We have slew of them here, It is not a perfect creation by any means....Contrary to what we learned in Temple & Scriptures..... Evolution limped for millions of years, discarding hundreds of prototypes of Monkeys, Chimps (my favorite Cousin)...What can I say.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Atheist Mormon

[Calm]

So Evolution in your view has an intelligence?

[thesometimesaint]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Mistakes, failures...We have slew of them here, It is not a perfect creation by any means....Contrary to what we learned in Temple & Scriptures..... Evolution limped for millions of years, discarding hundreds of prototypes of Monkeys, Chimps (my favorite Cousin)...What can I say.

Neither the Scriptures nor the Temple claim it was a perfect creation.

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Neither the Scriptures nor the Temple claim it was a perfect creation.

True enough.....but what is the message? Humans were created within a specific time frame & current form....So much absurdities must be accepted to believe this scheme.. 

[Atheist Mormon]

Johnnie Cake said; "...  I do find it ironic that a show that is filmed in Utah probably won't be watched by the majority of Utahans due to the mental conditioning of its people." Kenngo 1969 replies to him; 

Oh.

You were serious, weren't you?  

Sorry.

Carry on! "

Is there a sarcasm I'm detecting here? Considerable size of Utahns did not visit Dead Horse SP or Arches NP. When you ask them where the Coral Pink SD is they wouldn't even know it is in Utah....But the most guys I've worked with could tell you every good golf courses from Cash Valley to St. George.......And when they go camping, they have nice campers, while the kids play mom is in the camper, cooking, cleaning for the family.........has no interest to venture out.......

Mental conditioning plays a part, sure...But curiosity, skepticism should be inherent in us,,This is why we are progressing in a maniacal speed.....

[Johnnie Cake]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 7:23 PM, Calm said:

Huh?  What word are you claiming he is using as a verb?  If you mean "mistake", you don't put "that" and "a" (or any other definite or indefinite articles) in front of verbs.  

http://www.englishpage.com/articles/a-an-vs-the.htm

Bcuz, he is saying something about the usage of the term "mistakes" in his post, which is to condemn the interchangeable use of the term "mistake" with "mutation" by the OP, Atheist Mormon, and now Johnnie Cake.  He is rejecting labeling evolutionary results as "mistakes".

My opinion, mutations are merely outcomes and if the organism survives, a generally successful outcome, at least until it dies.

I can't believe we're arguing about the use of "Mistake"...but so be it... this is MD&D after all and we love to argue about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin don't we.  My good friend mfbutowski is arguing that the use of Mistake by Hopkins is misplaced...I merely listed several scientific web sights that have also used the word mistake in describing the process that takes place when a cell's DNA mutates.  That actual process of mutation is a mistake from a cell that divides without mutation...why is this point so difficult for some to wrap your heads around...do we always have to argue every single point on this board...it get really frustrating that absolutely everyone is so protective of their turf and refuses it give an inch... Evolution is true. it happened/s get over it

Edit to add:  mfbutowski & Calm I get your point.  But seriously why make THIS a point of contention...it gets exausting

Edited October 21, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 6:15 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

It doesn't prove your point at all, my dear "Johnnie Cake," because your (frankly lazy) reasoning suffers from one or more fatal logical flaws.  Roughly, your argument takes the following form:

[X]-es believe [Y].

Since [X]-es believe [Y], they will not do [Z].

That argument posits that there is one, and only one, one reason why [X]-es will not do [Z], when, in fact, there is more than one potential reason why [X]-es will not do [Z]: Lack of time, lack of interest, interests which run in other directions, choice-driven lack of the necessary technology, otherwise-limited resources, and so on.

I rest my case...

[Atheist Mormon]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

So Evolution in your view has an intelligence?

Of course not. At least nothing we can observe empirically. If that were the case, it would be a horrible, macabre chain of choices handing out upper hand the most vicious beasts an put Humans on apex of it.

[Johnnie Cake]

edit

Edited October 21, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[thesometimesaint]

6 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I can't believe we're arguing about the use of "Mistake"...but so be it... this is MD&D after all and we love to argue about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin don't we.  My good friend mfbutowski is arguing that the use of Mistake by Hopkins is misplaced...I merely listed several scientific web sights that have also used the word mistake in describing the process that takes place when a cell's DNA mutates.  That actual process of mutation is a mistake from a cell that divides without mutation...why is this point so difficult for some to wrap your heads around...do we always have to argue every single point on this board...it get really frustrating that absolutely everyone is so protective of their turf and refuses it give an inch... Evolution is true. it happened/s get over it

Again I wouldn't use the word "mistake". Insertions, deletions, and recombinations are better descriptors. I have no problem with Evolution or God I don't understand why you do.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 

Edit to add:  mfbutowski & Calm I get your point.  But seriously why make THIS a point of contention...it gets exausting

Only because it appeared you didn't understand how mfb was using it, you were criticizing his comments without interacting with what he was saying.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Of course not. At least nothing we can observe empirically. If that were the case, it would be a horrible, macabre chain of choices handing out upper hand the most vicious beasts an put Humans on apex of it.

So you hold the position that intelligence is not required to make mistakes?  Random changes are labeled mistakes?

Edited October 21, 2016 by Calm

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, Calm said:

So you hold the position that intelligence is not required to make mistakes?  Random chances can be mistakes?

Mistakes are mistakes, whether intelligent or Evolution drives....Without mistakes none of us would be here. Science thrives on mistakes so it can correct whatever project it's working on.

[Calm]

My problem is seeing non-man caused change as mistakes when they appear to me to be simply part of the natural process.  For example, a dog is sitting quietly.  Now she barks.  It is a change, is that a mistake?  She barks because she is in pain.  Is the pain, which is a sign of change, a mistake?  She is in pain because her body has cancer.  Is that a mistake?

Or perhaps this makes my point clearer.  A crystal can grow in various ways depending on the environment it exists in.  If there is no insertion of other objects or extreme changes, the crystal will grow into a perfect structure.  If, however, temperature changes or a speck of dust or two fall upon the substance, it can cause a change in alignment and the crystal alters its growth pattern.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_crystal

But any imperfections are simply caused by the laws that dictate the growth of the crystal and its environment, fundamental laws that aren't changing themselves/  So the results are what are supposed to happen in that time and space given the laws that exist.  So how can the results be labeled mistakes?  They are all acting as would be expected by laws.

Mistakes can be said to happen with intelligence because expectations or intent are different than the actual result.

[Calm]

As to why the obsession with the term "mistake"...it is because the opening post makes it the focus of the thread, "mistakes" is used as a given as well as the them...perhaps that given/assumption is a mistake though.  If so, the rest of the comments resting on a mistake...well, why even bother discuss anything else until that issue is debated and resolved?

The theme of the thread:

Quote

"Evolution thrives on mistakes"   . I never heard a better explanation for Evolution's mechanism

 

[Guest]

On October 17, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

Yesterday I was watching "Westworld" on HBO, it ihas an intriguing plot..(going back to Yul Brynner, what a guy he was). Anyway, the story is about an amusement park filled with robots where the visitors can live  any adventure they want to...As the story goes the Boss Anthony Hopkins replies to a concerned employee; "Evolution thrives on mistakes"   . I never heard a better explanation for Evolution's mechanism, if one cares to look how many proto human experiments Evolution had until we ended with Homo Sapiens. Imagine if you will if we ended with Neanderthal punctuation. It was like the whole time went by perpetuating one mistake after another.....All those mistakes ended with Homo Sapiens (Which I'm very happy about it...It's been a great ride!)

And yet I heard all these perfection stories in the Church.......It just made little sense as time went by....

Not sure what this has to do with Mormonism and the Gospel...nor this website. To each his own, I guess. 

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

So you hold the position that intelligence is not required to make mistakes?  Random changes are labeled mistakes?

It's relative..To me mistakes are no big deal. As any intelligence learns from his/its mistakes, learns to survive. Cheetahs, Lions hunt success is less than 10%. Random changes that not contribute to organism's progress are eliminated, until very recently most of the handicapped infants were systematically eliminated almost in every society. Nowadays we look at that practice with horror. Morality is relative to the society's outlook within the time frame they lived.

[Kenngo1969]

On 10/18/2016 at 8:39 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

... I do find it ironic that a show that is filmed in Utah probably won't be watched by the majority of Utahans due to the mental conditioning of its people. 

 

On 10/19/2016 at 3:15 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

  

  

 

Oh.

You were serious, weren't you?  

Sorry.

Carry on! 

 

On 10/19/2016 at 3:38 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

Then you're watching Westworld I take it...  cuz if you are not...that kind of proves my point.

 

On 10/19/2016 at 6:15 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

It doesn't prove your point at all, my dear "Johnnie Cake," because your (frankly lazy) reasoning suffers from one or more fatal logical flaws.  Roughly, your argument takes the following form:

[X]-es believe [Y].

Since [X]-es believe [Y], they will not do [Z].

That argument posits that there is one, and only one, one reason why [X]-es will not do [Z], when, in fact, there is more than one potential reason why [X]-es will not do [Z]: Lack of time, lack of interest, interests which run in other directions, choice-driven lack of the necessary technology, otherwise-limited resources, and so on.

 

12 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I rest my case...

If you want to "rest your case" on a logical fallacy, that's fine with me.  Have a nice evening.  

[rodheadlee]

OK I have a question for you atheists. Where did our consciousness come from? How did it evolve?

[waveslider]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

OK I have a question for you atheists. Where did our consciousness come from? How did it evolve?

I also like C. S. Lewis' question:

"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Mistakes are mistakes, whether intelligent or Evolution drives....Without mistakes none of us would be here. Science thrives on mistakes so it can correct whatever project it's working on.

[Atheist Mormon]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ill give you a simple example of a "Mistake", actually the word isn't fitting very well, the German equivalent is more apt "Fehler", means something missing, caused the mishap. Coming back to example of a very, very painful one..... the European scientist feel it to the core; ESA's (European Space Agency) Mars lander did crash on Mars. For most scientist that was the one lifetime shot, they will not get another chance. Whereas our Curiosity, opportunity thrives on Mars....There's alots of pure luck of coincidences involved into the process.....

This is the Evolution in Human scale...It doesn't matter wether it is mutation or intelligence caused...Heck...our intelligence allowed to elect Hitler as Fuhrer, He was eliminated because of the same principle of bad mutation.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Ill give you a simple example of a "Mistake", actually the word isn't fitting very well, the German equivalent is more apt "Fehler", means something missing, caused the mishap. Coming back to example of a very, very painful one..... the European scientist feel it to the core; ESA's (European Space Agency) Mars lander did crash on Mars. For most scientist that was the one lifetime shot, they will not get another chance. Whereas our Curiosity, opportunity thrives on Mars....There's alots of pure luck of coincidences involved into the process.....

This is the Evolution in Human scale...It doesn't matter wether it is mutation or intelligence caused...Heck...our intelligence allowed to elect Hitler as Fuhrer, He was eliminated because of the same principle of bad mutation.

So then you repudiate the OP statement, right? How is a random mutation "bad"?

Just looking for consistency 

Edited October 22, 2016 by mfbukowski

[thesometimesaint]

I wouldn't use the terms "good" or "bad" except in the most general nonspecific sense. If that random mutation promotes the viability of a species it can be said to be good. OTOH it that random mutation limits viability it can be said to be bad.