Mormon Church denounces Peaceful Coexistence Report

[ksfisher]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  But I guess I can't figure out what the government is going to do to religion because of this.  At least not doing something that isn't healthy--like keeping religions from being racist and such. 

Not to condone racism in any way, but having the government keep "religions from being racist and such" sounds like it would run into a number of 1st Amendment problems. 

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I've heard this story but how specifically will this effect the church. What are some examples?

Church employees and Mormon Tab Chior are required to be members in good standing (Temple Recommends) I believe. Not sure if that applies to those working in Deseret Industries. 

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Considering how the last Book of Mormon movie turned out, I think it could only be an improvement.

Indeed.  They have the trailer to their concept of the movie.  As you can see, the focus is on spiritual message of the Book of Mormon.

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by cdowis

[Calm]

Hope, do you know the retention rate of students attending nonchurch universities compared to church universities?  My understanding is we lose more there, but I don't have the data at hand.  I suspect the Church does and that is why they are willing to spend so much on the BYUs.

If there is a greater loss of belief or commitment to the Church or living its standards happening with students having to "adjust", do you see this as a reasonable concern and something that the Church might want to avoid? 

Going to college already involves a lot of adjustment and learning to live independently on one's own standards.  Can you see the value of a slower exposure for youth, allowing them to deal with a few independence issues at a time rather than throwing them into the deep end of the pool?  Giving them time to develop good habits and foundation in some areas before they  efore they get exposed to all the opportunities for missteps that may lead them into vulnerable circumstances?  Especially given the often high stress times where being exposed to temptations at the low point of the day when one is tired and fuzzy and maybe even a little depressed and frustrated instead of just in the hours where one is relatively awake and aware and clear thinking may make all the difference?

And while we don't likely have data on what happens to LDS kids attending nonLDS colleges that are in mixed housing as opposed to samesex housing, do you believe there is no increase of missteps when it comes to chastity or WoW standards with greater exposure and easier access (as in reaching out to take what is offered or even pushed on one as opposed to having to go look or pay (alcohol) for it?  And at that age and level of thinking, it is not uncommon for youth to reason if they have failed (in their personal view, missteps are often seen as failures), there is little hope of recovery, so they give up on standards (even adults think this way; I have a friend who in loneliness kissed a man not her husband and saw that as the point of no return so had an affair, which was a lot harder coming back from then if she had seen the kiss as a wake up call and worked to find a way to work on making her loneliness less overwhelming).

Edited October 13, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  But I guess I can't figure out what the government is going to do to religion because of this.  At least not doing something that isn't healthy--like keeping religions from being racist and such. 

Unfortunately, I don't see governments as the best determiners of what to do to remove racism.  In fact, I have seen racism go up in the US, Canada, and Russia because of government programs to show how nonracist and liberal the government is making their country.

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

 Are you familiar with the procedures required for firing an employee in a large corporation after they have gone thu their probationary period.  This is not a small business with a single owner/employer.  Are you familiar with the Federal laws for dismissing someone who can then sue on grounds of  discrimination.  "They fired me because I am gay."

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you.

Naw, just realistic, nobody is going to hold the church hostage.  You're paranoid.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Naw, just realistic, nobody is going to hold the church hostage.  You're paranoid.  

They have tried to hold Church hostage in sexual abuse cases (one case I am remembering the bishop told the mother not to take a member as a boarder, but she still did and even roomed him with her son, but still sued the Church as being responsible.  Another case involved caregiving where the parents were suing for injuries suffered from lack of supervision at a ward party though they had chosen to allow their child to attend without making sure who was caring for them.  Why wouldn't it happen in employment cases?  It has happened to other employers for other reasons.  Why do you think religious standards would get a pass?

Edited October 14, 2016 by Calm

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I don't know about BYU (BYU even though it is owned and operated by the church is not the church), however I do know that to be an employee of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the church requires that you be a member of the church and hold and maintain a current temple recommend.  This is something I know.  The Church itself does not employ individuals who do not meet those requirements.

A government requirement that all paid church positions be open to members as well as nonmembers would open up paid temple staff, paid seminary teachers, curriculum writers, and multitude of other church positions to those who do not hold the same values, morals, ideals, and beliefs as members of the church. 

Assuming that you are correct about this assertion and I have no reason to believe that you are, I still don't see a problem with anything that you listed with perhaps the exception of paid temple staff.  But for teachers, I think they would consider those to be ecclesiastical positions which wouldn't be impacted.  The study was looking for compromise positions that make sense for both the church and for society.  I have no reason to believe that some exceptions wouldn't be considered.  

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Really?

1 Corinthians 5:11-12New International Version (NIV)

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

 

And

 

King James Bible
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

 

Lots of unChristian things are found in the Bible.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

It's my understanding that after some awkward situations in which some non-LDS actors in a Church film in the 90s turned out to support lifestyles contrary to Church policy, all actors in Church films since then must hold a Temple Recommend. 

Just a policy, change it back.  

Curious but are you referring to this rumor about the temple film?  http://holyfetch.com/actor-removed-from-temple-film/

 

[Johnnie Cake]

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

 

Sounds like a slippery slope to me.  And one that the “US Commission on Civil Rights” not only condones, but welcomes.

BTW, what good is religious freedom unless it also protects unpopular religious doctrines? 

Just to be clear, so that everyone knows what I mean by slippery slope arguments.  It is a fallacy in reasoning, and it shouldn't be used as a valid argument.  Small change A does not necessarily lead to large significantly negative B.   

Quote

A slippery slope argument... is a consequentialist logical device in which a party asserts that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

[Jeanne]

In2008 when the housing crisis and the tank of the economy was real bad..I was looking for work..now....I can tell you that I went on so many interviews everywhere where there were not single interviews but group interviews because so many people were looking for work.  In Cache Valley it was more than a challenge.  A few people I would see on a few different interviews together ..we would smile because..we didn't wear Temple Garments and we knew our chances were slim.  So...in my view..in Utah anyway, it is much easier to get a job when you have a Temple recommend no matter what qualifications you had.  Been there!!

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But it is likely that opportunities to teach the gospel, especially with the more subtle nuances, will be lost.  It is not so much the addition of the negative as the loss of positives that are concerning, imo.  A lifelong commitment to the Gospel rests on the little principles and influences as much, if not more, than the big core doctrines.  Lots of members in my experience have moved away from the faith community not because they stopped believing the core doctrines, but because the 'little things' didn't mesh for them (little things that add up to creating a house of order and love, a refuge from the world, for example).  Sometimes this is because they didn't have examples around them sufficiently to learn how to make it work; sometimes it is because they had never lived in an environment where the gospel was considered in practically every choice made so they could also feel the value of making that choice.  The BYUs, imo, have the ability to offer those opportunities in much greater quantities than nonLDS colleges.  

It is the little things that slowly add strength and resilience to testimonies as well as every day joy.

I totally disagree.  I think the church loses value by having group think.  There are so many good people of faith that we could learn from, but most of the time we're a very insulated community.  Those who that regularly interact with other faiths and seek to learn truths from other traditions bring so many valuable insights that can really help the Mormon community.  I have a positive outlook on the possibilities here.  Change can be hard, but I think the pros by far outweigh any cons.  

[hope_for_things]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hope, do you know the retention rate of students attending nonchurch universities compared to church universities?  My understanding is we lose more there, but I don't have the data at hand.  I suspect the Church does and that is why they are willing to spend so much on the BYUs.

If there is a greater loss of belief or commitment to the Church or living its standards happening with students having to "adjust", do you see this as a reasonable concern and something that the Church might want to avoid? 

I can assume you're probably correct, but then why doesn't the church build more schools.  They seem to encourage people to attend other universities by not expanding the options for members.  If this is such a concern, why not address it?  

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

And while we don't likely have data on what happens to LDS kids attending nonLDS colleges that are in mixed housing as opposed to samesex housing, do you believe there is no increase of missteps when it comes to chastity or WoW standards with greater exposure and easier access (as in reaching out to take what is offered or even pushed on one as opposed to having to go look or pay (alcohol) for it?  And at that age and level of thinking, it is not uncommon for youth to reason if they have failed (in their personal view, missteps are often seen as failures), there is little hope of recovery, so they give up on standards (even adults think this way; I have a friend who in loneliness kissed a man not her husband and saw that as the point of no return so had an affair, which was a lot harder coming back from then if she had seen the kiss as a wake up call and worked to find a way to work on making her loneliness less overwhelming).

You ask some good questions about psychological development and overall I do think having an environment conducive to learning is best for students to focus on the right priorities of school.  However, considering that most members kids don't attend a church owned school, they just don't have the capacity and the church hasn't been expanding or wanting to expand that capacity.  So are you saying that only those who attend BYU schools are going to be safe from these "evils of the world"?  At some point I guess we have to treat them as adults and realize that trying to shelter them isn't an effective strategy.  I don't have a college aged child yet, but I will in a few years.  I may be naive, we'll see how it goes when I get there.  :-)

[cdowis]

31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Lots of unChristian things are found in the Bible.  

I don't suppose you checked out the JST, did you? James 9: 46-47

Edited October 13, 2016 by cdowis

[hope_for_things]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

They have tried to hold Church hostage in sexual abuse cases (one case I am remembering the bishop told the mother not to take a member as a boarder and then roomed him with her son, but still sued the Church as being responsible.  Another case involved caregiving where the parents were suing for injuries suffered from lack of supervision at a ward party though they had chosen to allow their child to attend without making sure who was caring for them.  Why wouldn't it happen in employment cases?  It has happened to other employers for other reasons.  Why do you think religious standards would get a pass?

I guess you're saying there's a chance.  I think its highly unlikely that someone would go through the vetting process to become an employee and move up to a position where they could subtly try to undermine the spirituality of a production through changing the doctrines or mixing in some philosophies of men into the content.  Just seems to paranoid to me.  I guess thats to be expected with all the us vs. them talk in conference these days.  

[VideoGameJunkie]

I say bring on the religious persecution to show who the true Saints are and who will really defend the church. It can help separate the wheat from the tares and it's probably been warned that things like this would be happening from the scriptures so I say bring on whatever brings us closer to Jesus Christ's Second Coming.

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, cdowis said:

I don't suppose you checked out the JST, did you? James 9: 46-47

Great post on the JST in case you're interested. One of the inspirational things I get from the Bible is the understanding that a lot of mistakes have been made by people in the past, including those who many revere as prophets.  One of those mistakes is when people believe that God commanded them to treat others poorly for various righteous reasons.  Hopefully we can learn from that false teaching just how we should treat others today.  With love.  

http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/01/what-role-should-the-jst-play-in-lds-biblical-studies/

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I can assume you're probably correct, but then why doesn't the church build more schools.  They seem to encourage people to attend other universities by not expanding the options for members.  If this is such a concern, why not address it?  

You ask some good questions about psychological development and overall I do think having an environment conducive to learning is best for students to focus on the right priorities of school.  However, considering that most members kids don't attend a church owned school, they just don't have the capacity and the church hasn't been expanding or wanting to expand that capacity.  So are you saying that only those who attend BYU schools are going to be safe from these "evils of the world"?  At some point I guess we have to treat them as adults and realize that trying to shelter them isn't an effective strategy.  I don't have a college aged child yet, but I will in a few years.  I may be naive, we'll see how it goes when I get there.  :-)

You are naive.  College life in these mandatory dorms is like forcing your kids to live in a bar/brothel and hoping they survive the year.  Some can do it but it isn't pleasant either.  I don't think dorm life is so bad at Utah schools but in my state, it is particularly bad.  My peer group  is in the thick of this and I have heard too many stories that would be completely inappropriate here.  All dorm building are now coed but wings and floors can be segregated by gender but the rules are not enforced.  In the last few years, they've added an option for open housing so all bedrooms and bathrooms are also coed.  The reasoning for this is it is non discriminatory.  Give it 10 years and segregating students by gender at all could be considered discriminatory.  (bathrooms are a major issue--who saw that coming.) 

Religious institutions need to retain their autonomy.  I am happy BYU has independent rules and their right to set their own rules should be defended.  

[ksfisher]

52 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Assuming that you are correct about this assertion and I have no reason to believe that you are 

What part of what I said do have no reason to believe is correct?

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately, I don't see governments as the best determiners of what to do to remove racism.  In fact, I have seen racism go up in the US, Canada, and Russia because of government programs to show how nonracist and liberal the government is making their country.

My oldest had no idea that there were different races until his teacher pounded it home in first grade. "Mom and Dad: did you know that there used to be white people?" We thought he was talking about albinos, but when it became clear that he was talking about races ("They were the ones who killed Martin Luther King, Jr."  ), he was surprised when we told him that we are white people. That there was any difference between him and his classmates (overwhelmingly Hispanic and black, with very few white kids) had never occurred to him. I wonder how long it would have taken him without the overt teaching of race in school?

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

 

 

Which movie are you referring to?

This one.  Not an official Church production, but close enough to show the dangers of good intentions outweighing production values:

 

 

 

[cinepro]

DP

Edited October 13, 2016 by cinepro