thesometimesaint Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 17 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I disagree, both with the "thinking person" false attribution and with the idea of death on earth before Adam. When the word of God comes in conflict with science I shall choose the word of God. Just because science hasn't been able to explain how God did something doesn't mean it didn't happen. Whereas God can certainly explain how he did everything using scientific law when he so chooses. One of the joys of being omniscient, and omnipotent.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: We have a very detailed genealogy from Christ to David, David to Noah and Noah to Adam. Seems like a historical record to me. A detailed account of creation in 6 days, and a very detailed account of the Flood including dates in Genesis 7, seems like a history to me. I respectfully disagree, the bible is chocked full of history. We know the Jews existed in the middle east, we know Egypt existed, we know of countless places and artifacts that support the bible as history.....Are you confusing the BOM with the Bible? One of these books is incredibly lacking in any kind of evidence, the other...not so much. The LDS articles of faith confirm my belief that the Bible is the word of God. You miss the point once more, snowflake. A ritual text may contain historical materials. That does not make it a history or science text. You need a two semester course at your local college on The Bible as Literature. Also many regular college English courses will help you understand the various genres of literature, including wisdom, poetry, legislation, genealogy, prayer, liturgy, narrative, etc. Here is an introduction to the concept of the Creation & Garden Story as temple ritual: “N.T. Wright and Pete Enns: What Do You Mean by Literal?” BioLogos Foundation Video) “a temple story” = “the literal meaning of Genesis,” online at . 1
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, mnn727 said: The Bible is neither a historical text nor a science text. Now, using your beliefs, explain dinosaurs. According to the Bible, all the beasts and creepy things were created on day 6, along with the whales. Before the flood obviously the earth was much different than today. Something enabled the dinosaurs to get huge, supposedly there was more oxygen or greater atmospheric pressure that allowed them to become massive. Things were different because insects, animals and man lived much longer. Adam live 900 years, to get a dinosaur as big as they got would take quite some time. So dinosaurs were on Noah's ark (baby ones, much easier to manage), they were called dragons. The term "dinosaur" was not invented until the 1850's? Noah's flood destroyed all flesh except what was on the ark. It would take a massive catastrophic event to bury some of the larger dinosaurs, something like a volcano could bury one quickly, or say a massive flood.
thesometimesaint Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 There is no evidence for a world wide flood of some 4000 BCE.. SEE http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You miss the point once more, snowflake. A ritual text may contain historical materials. That does not make it a history or science text. You need a two semester course at your local college on The Bible as Literature. Also many regular college English courses will help you understand the various genres of literature, including wisdom, poetry, legislation, genealogy, prayer, liturgy, narrative, etc. I agree with you Robert that the bible is full of various types genres within the text itself, and I was no English major. However, you seem to dismiss the beginning of the book when it states "in the beginning". According to the "big bang" and the bible, there was a literal beginning to all of the universe, including space and time. As I understand LDS theology the brethren don't agree with this because there is no beginning in LDS theology correct? Matter is eternal, just re-organized by the newest god to be exalted. So if often hear the arguments for billions of years or that days meant "generations" or "gaps". I just don't see these as being supported by the text in the Bible itself.
mnn727 Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 24 minutes ago, snowflake said: According to the Bible, all the beasts and creepy things were created on day 6, along with the whales. Before the flood obviously the earth was much different than today. Something enabled the dinosaurs to get huge, supposedly there was more oxygen or greater atmospheric pressure that allowed them to become massive. Things were different because insects, animals and man lived much longer. Adam live 900 years, to get a dinosaur as big as they got would take quite some time. So dinosaurs were on Noah's ark (baby ones, much easier to manage), they were called dragons. The term "dinosaur" was not invented until the 1850's? Noah's flood destroyed all flesh except what was on the ark. It would take a massive catastrophic event to bury some of the larger dinosaurs, something like a volcano could bury one quickly, or say a massive flood. Wow, just wow! So much incorrect in just one paragraph <shakes head, laughs and turns away>> 1
bcuzbcuz Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 3 hours ago, snowflake said: I would disagree. If we are to assume the Bible is the word of God (most LDS would accept this statement), then the Genesis account is a detailed description of creation, the fall and the flood. Genesis 7 has the most detailed timeline in all of the Bible. Where did you get the idea that it is not a history? As posted earlier, Christ himself speaks of Noah and the Flood as literal events. Where do I get the idea that the flood is not history? Where shall I start? There is no physical evidence of a world wide flood from anywhere and certainly nothing that dates to 2400-2300 BC. Apparently the flood happened around 2350-2340. My wife and myself have walked around the Saqqara pyramid of Djoser and around the adjoining buildings. There is no water line around the pyramid or anything indicating water damage. Do a google to check when it was built. We walked (and rode dromedaries) around the pyramids and sphinx at Giza. Here again there were no signs of water damage. Further more, the pyramids required tens and tens of thousands of labourers, both to haul the stones up the sides of the pyramids, but crews of thousands to provide meals and beer for the workers. Include as well, the workers in the quaries and the boats to haul the stones along the Nile. But if there was a flood and everyone except Noah and his family were wiped from the surface of the planet, how come the Egyptians kept right on building pyramids? Where did they get all the workers from? Do a google check on when the three major pyramids of Giza were built. (And then calculate in that the Egyptians and Nubians kept on building hundreds of smaller pyramids) Just how did they do that with no people?
bcuzbcuz Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I disagree, both with the "thinking person" false attribution and with the idea of death on earth before Adam. When the word of God comes in conflict with science I shall choose the word of God. Just because science hasn't been able to explain how God did something doesn't mean it didn't happen. Whereas God can certainly explain how he did everything using scientific law when he so chooses. When, in your opinion, did Adam live? How many years ago? How many years before Christ? And am I understanding you correctly that it is your opinion, that nothing lived and/or died before Adam?
bcuzbcuz Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 11 hours ago, BCSpace said: The Bible refers to the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon contains 2 Nephi 2:22. 2 Nephi 2:22 tells us that the state of no death began when the creative period was over. Check and mate. Check and mate? I would suggest you not remove your fingers from your pawn so quickly, if I was you? You need something more than merely saying so to declare checkmate. Just where does the Bible refer to the Book of Mormon?....And please, make it a reference that no one else in any other religion would have any difficulty in accepting the reference , that it can only be to the Book of Mormon and not something else.
JLHPROF Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: When, in your opinion, did Adam live? How many years ago? How many years before Christ? And am I understanding you correctly that it is your opinion, that nothing lived and/or died before Adam? About 4000 years before Christ so about 6000 years ago. I won't 100% say nothing lived before Adam. According to Genesis God created plants and animals before placing man in the garden. Who knows how long there was between the first life and the first man. As for death? I don't think we know enough about the condition of the earth before the fall to be sure. Edited September 14, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: When, in your opinion, did Adam live? How many years ago? How many years before Christ? And am I understanding you correctly that it is your opinion, that nothing lived and/or died before Adam? Around 4,000 b.c. Correct, according to genesis there was not death until sin entered the world (through Adam). Technically speaking Adam (man) was created last.
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 33 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: Where do I get the idea that the flood is not history? Where shall I start? There is no physical evidence of a world wide flood from anywhere and certainly nothing that dates to 2400-2300 BC. Apparently the flood happened around 2350-2340. My wife and myself have walked around the Saqqara pyramid of Djoser and around the adjoining buildings. There is no water line around the pyramid or anything indicating water damage. Do a google to check when it was built. We walked (and rode dromedaries) around the pyramids and sphinx at Giza. Here again there were no signs of water damage. Further more, the pyramids required tens and tens of thousands of labourers, both to haul the stones up the sides of the pyramids, but crews of thousands to provide meals and beer for the workers. Include as well, the workers in the quaries and the boats to haul the stones along the Nile. But if there was a flood and everyone except Noah and his family were wiped from the surface of the planet, how come the Egyptians kept right on building pyramids? Where did they get all the workers from? Do a google check on when the three major pyramids of Giza were built. (And then calculate in that the Egyptians and Nubians kept on building hundreds of smaller pyramids) Just how did they do that with no people? Evidence for a global flood. According to Walt Brown's Hydroplate theory discussed in In the beginning, compelling evidence for Creation and the Flood. Ancient Historians such as Josephus, and Borosus of the Chaldeans mentioned in their writings that the Ark existed. Marco Polo also wrot ethe the Ark was reported to be in greater Armenia. The Grand Canyon, Mid-Oceanic Ridge, Continental Shelves and slopes, Ocean Trenches, Seamounts and Tablemounts, Magnetic variations on the Ocean Floor, Submarine Canyons, Coal and oil Formations, Glaciers and the Ice Ages, Frozen Mammoths, Major Mountain Ranges, Overthrusts, Volcanoes and Lava, Geothermal heat, Metamorphic Rock, Strata, Plateaus, Salt Domes Jiggsaw Fit of the Continents, Fossil Graveyards.
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 48 minutes ago, mnn727 said: Wow, just wow! So much incorrect in just one paragraph <shakes head, laughs and turns away>> Carbon 14 is being found in 60 million year old dinosaur bones, can you believe it! http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html
thesometimesaint Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 The Hydroplate idea has been thoroughly debunked, SEE http://paleo.cc/ce/wbrown.htm A shotgunning isn't an adequate response. Please take on item at a time. IE; The Grand Canyon is actual proof against a global flood of circa 4000 BCE. SEE http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/geology/gc_geol.htm 2
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 46 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The Hydroplate idea has been thoroughly debunked, SEE http://paleo.cc/ce/wbrown.htm A shotgunning isn't an adequate response. Please take on item at a time. IE; The Grand Canyon is actual proof against a global flood of circa 4000 BCE. SEE http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/geology/gc_geol.htm Agreed, shotgunning is not an adequate response. Please explain the mid oceanic ridge. According to plate tectonics the ridges are all moving apart. This appears to work fine in the atlantic ocean but what about the areas where these ridges intersect off of Madagascar and the tip of Africa? Thanks for the link to the response to walt brown's book. I will read it.
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You miss the point once more, snowflake. A ritual text may contain historical materials. That does not make it a history or science text. You need a two semester course at your local college on The Bible as Literature. Also many regular college English courses will help you understand the various genres of literature, including wisdom, poetry, legislation, genealogy, prayer, liturgy, narrative, etc. Which one of these categories would you put the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus into? 1
mnn727 Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Carbon 14 is being found in 60 million year old dinosaur bones, can you believe it! http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html Next time you're going to place a link, make sure its from a credible peer reviewed source please. Just because its on the internet, that doesn't make it true.
snowflake Posted September 14, 2016 Author Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: The Hydroplate idea has been thoroughly debunked, SEE http://paleo.cc/ce/wbrown.htm A shotgunning isn't an adequate response. Please take on item at a time. IE; The Grand Canyon is actual proof against a global flood of circa 4000 BCE. SEE http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/geology/gc_geol.htm Maybe you could explain where all the water on earth came from? http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-did-water-come-to-earth-72037248/?no-ist The Smithsonian answer is laughable! And they call that science.
bcuzbcuz Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Evidence for a global flood. According to Walt Brown's Hydroplate theory discussed in In the beginning, compelling evidence for Creation and the Flood. Ancient Historians such as Josephus, and Borosus of the Chaldeans mentioned in their writings that the Ark existed. Marco Polo also wrot ethe the Ark was reported to be in greater Armenia. The Grand Canyon, Mid-Oceanic Ridge, Continental Shelves and slopes, Ocean Trenches, Seamounts and Tablemounts, Magnetic variations on the Ocean Floor, Submarine Canyons, Coal and oil Formations, Glaciers and the Ice Ages, Frozen Mammoths, Major Mountain Ranges, Overthrusts, Volcanoes and Lava, Geothermal heat, Metamorphic Rock, Strata, Plateaus, Salt Domes Jiggsaw Fit of the Continents, Fossil Graveyards. Josephus was born after Christ so he was neither a witness to Christ nor could he, with any authority, say anything about Noah´s story. Josephus was 2400 years removed from the event. Borosus lived sometime between 300 and 200 BC. We don´t know for sure. So he also missed being any authority regarding Noah, by about 2000 years. Marco Polo, some 4000 years after the "event", unless he saw it with his own eyes, can not give a dependable witness either. Considering that Marco Polo´s stories about China have been called into question (He fails to write anything about the Wall of China nor does he write anything about chopsticks,) his observations regarding Noah are not exactly trustworthy. Then you give a long list of details that in and of themselves provide absolutely nothing to the discussion of Noah´s flood. You obviously see these items as some kind of proof, but withoout adding your interpretation they are useless. 1
Hagoth Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 Maybe a better question would be is it possible for the Bible authors to have been aware of evolution? And the simplest answer is that, since they predated any kind of scientific process for understanding evolution, might be that the Bible authors did the best they could to explain the origins of the world around them by drawing from their traditions and mythology. 1
bcuzbcuz Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 37 minutes ago, Hagoth said: Maybe a better question would be is it possible for the Bible authors to have been aware of evolution? And the simplest answer is that, since they predated any kind of scientific process for understanding evolution, might be that the Bible authors did the best they could to explain the origins of the world around them by drawing from their traditions and mythology. That might be true for the writers of the old testament who finally put stories and myths to print around 600 BC. We know that many of the ancient Greek philosphers and thinkers from around 400-300 BC began trying to establish thoughts about how sea shells ended at the tops of mountains. But maybe traditions and myths trump theories and thoughts then as they do so much in modern societies. In this modern world we have people who believe in dragons, werewolves, haunted houses and astrology, so maybe I shouldn´t expect too much from those who lived 3000 years ago.
waveslider Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 4 hours ago, mnn727 said: If you've been to the Temple, you know that is not the case CFR. I didn't ever get that the Earth was already in a Telestial state before Adam fell, whenever I have gone to the temple. Here is something else that makes me believe otherwise as well: “This earth and all that pertains to it, including every form of life on the face thereof, was first created in a terrestrial or paradisiacal state. Incident to the fall of Adam, the earth itself and all life on its face fell to their present telestial state” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.633). 2
Garden Girl Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 I do not accept Darwinism per se at all... but I do believe there was a form of evolution, and natural selection, utilized in the creation process... and I find this possibility in the Book of Abraham, particularly Chapter 4... where it talks about the Gods "ordering" certain things... and then sitting back and watching to see that they were obeyed. For instance in Verse 18, "And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed." Verse 21... And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind... and the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good. Verse 25... "And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth the beasts after their kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind; and the Gods saw they would obey." All of these verses have the Gods organizing, preparing, and then waiting to see that the things they ordered would be obeyed... how long, and how, did these processes take place before they were completed according to the way the Gods planned and ordered... this to me denotes a possibility of a form of evolution... GG 2
cinepro Posted September 14, 2016 Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, waveslider said: CFR. I didn't ever get that the Earth was already in a Telestial state before Adam fell, whenever I have gone to the temple. Here is something else that makes me believe otherwise as well: “This earth and all that pertains to it, including every form of life on the face thereof, was first created in a terrestrial or paradisiacal state. Incident to the fall of Adam, the earth itself and all life on its face fell to their present telestial state” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.633). Bruce was wrong. So was Elder Nelson: Quote The plan required the Creation, and that in turn required both the Fall and the Atonement. These are the three fundamental components of the plan. The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. 12 Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam. Apparently the "paradisiacal planet" part is an optional component of the first fundamental component. But I'm sure he knew that and just forgot. Edited September 14, 2016 by cinepro
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