How shall we live?

[stemelbow]

Help me out.  I don't get my place in the world.  Growing up in the Church I was told that I was one of a few special people saved to come forth in this day because of my specialness and faithfulness, or whatever.  I never bought it.  Whenever that type of talk happened, even when I was young, I thought "this dude doesn't know from whence his speaks" (out of his caboose).  I've never felt I've had something more to offer than some random fellow from a thousand years ago.  Once you realize that, you learn all of this "you're special" crap is used to build you up so you can feel confident enough or superior (both feels like the most likely answer).  But confident enough for what?  I mean live a faithful LDS life and what it amounts to is you working to earn money to give your family more and more than others, while spending some of your free time sitting in meetings (each meeting becomes nothing more than a repeat of past meetings) and knocking on annoyed people's doors.  Well, until, one day, "wahoo...this door I knocked on amounted to, or potentially amounts to, some guy coming to Church, or coming back to Church".  Then when they actually come to Church, well, we have a whole other story to run through (which most often results in the new guy leaving or disappearing). 

My faith is so strong, huh?

let's go back to my youth.  The impression came to me that we were a strong people...an influential people.  But as it turned out I was so into demographics when I was a young boy I knew the leaders didn't know what they were saying about that either.  (for some reason I ranked all the countries in the world from most populous to least and memorized the order.  Then I moved onto the largest cities to the smallest--all the way until I got to my home town, Ogden, UT which is thousands down the list).  I knew there were all sorts of people, religions and non-religions out there.  That we amounted to the tiniest sliver, nearly undetectable, on a pie chart.  "But" I would be told, "we may be few but our voices our loud and influential". 

I guess.  "what happened to many being called and few chosen?  Sounds more like few are called and very few are chosen to me." 

"Oh stop it.  You're trying too hard"

"what?"

Trying what?  I still don't know.  Nations have dwindled in unbelief and more are yet to come and go.  Life feels less precious.  "better than one man die, than a nation dwindle in unbelief".  What?  Why didn't one man die so other nations didn't die?  Most likely, when Jesus died in some disaster or another, while few knew it was a sign, or something, many were just killed in the disaster.  Ah well...it's our world.  We can't change that, right?  People are poor, starving and dying of disease.  I'll give them a few bucks sure, but there are others still dying and suffering.  Oh well...God will bless them in eternity for their hardships here, I guess. 

Where am I?  I don't know.  My heart is everywhere, wondering if there is ever anything I can actually contribute.  Sometimes I'm just desperately doing anything to make me feel like I've tried, but it's nothing.  At least I can spend my time getting together with friends and family and laugh some. 

Faith becomes meaningless if there will appear in the Celestial world those who had no faith in mortality.  Impressions of the heart are more meaningful then whether one knows about Jesus or not.  "ahh but the scriptures teach, one must know Jesus".  I guess.  We'll all know Him.  We're all going to bow and knee and confess, so I fuss about it now as if it really matters?

Plus, whole societies anger God.  The BoM has peaceful people who grow happy inevitably becoming proud because of their learning and riches.  There's no way any BoM society is any less rich and learned than us, even in relative terms compared to our contemporaries.  We have out our fingertips every luxury and piece of information at any time we want.  And we're mostly just a proud selfish people.  What are we blessed to come in this time and place so we can live such comforts never before imagined?  Or are we cursed because inevitably we are the proudest and therefore most problematic to God and His ways, as we proclaim as Israel of old...we're a special people favored by God. 

Many are called and few chosen...Whose the many?  The world is called in a sense, I guess.  Why not chosen?  Well because they/we do that which we do--we love the things of the world (whatever that means, what?  make money, work, buy cars and go on vacations?) and we want people to adore us. 

I don't know too often I realize we're each just simple little products of our own time.  We can't see anything... we aren't really anything as Moses is purported to have said.  Are we?

What a mess (referring to my post and the world)

 

[The Nehor]

I think you should eat some pie and ice cream.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think you should eat some pie and ice cream.

It's still morning. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's still morning. 

If you do not eat pie and ice cream because of the time of day then I think you are doing this whole life thing wrong.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you do not eat pie and ice cream because of the time of day then I think you are doing this whole life thing wrong.

Yeah sure add to this whole mess a notion that we really ought to try and keep ourselves healthy.  We can't just eat pie and ice cream all day every day, laying around as the days pass by, Should we?

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Yeah sure add to this whole mess a notion that we really ought to try and keep ourselves healthy.  We can't just eat pie and ice cream all day every day, laying around as the days pass by, Should we?

I did not say every day. But after posting this I definitely recommend pie and ice cream today. Preferably a nice boysenberry pie and Blue Bell ice cream.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I did not say every day. But after posting this I definitely recommend pie and ice cream today. Preferably a nice boysenberry pie and Blue Bell ice cream.

Just for you, I'm going to go buy something like pie and ice cream, if not pie and ice cream, and give it to the dirty guy begging on the corner.  Do you think that'll help my day? 

Edited September 7, 2016 by stemelbow

[Jeanne]

I hear you.  Sometimes I think we really do know our place it is just that we are in a different place.  When I was young and active and I did something good, there was always someone there to give me an "atta boy"..way to go..and then doing good was a good goal to attain to.  But I wish that I had been like you...I really thought that I was special and raised for the last days..and counted on it.  Now the mess.  I wish sometimes that I knew myself without the church..the doctrine and teachings.  I believe I would have been more in touch with the world as it is..not as it is supposed to be and me being a part of the change.  What a huge expectation that is to only feel in the middle..in the mess.  Was there a restoration..and a restoration of what?  We are all just people making our own way in a world we should not judge..because we cannot redeem   I know I am not making much sense to anyone but myself..but just wanted to let you know..I hear you.  Another voice in the wind.

Quote

I am going to have to quit accidently doing this or come up some darn good quotes!!

 

[Eek!]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Help me out.  I don't get my place in the world.  Growing up in the Church I was told that I was one of a few special people saved to come forth in this day because of my specialness and faithfulness, or whatever.  I never bought it.  Whenever that type of talk happened, even when I was young, I thought "this dude doesn't know from whence his speaks" (out of his caboose). 

Dude, you need a bigger box.  You've long since outgrown this one.  Your feel the pull to draw a really big circle, one that leaves no-one out.  You're ready for the next level.

You might start with whatever core truths YOU embrace, and start building on that.  An excellent source of building material is the body of near-death experiences that we have access to.  Read and/or watch a whole bunch of them, and come to your own conclusions as to what take-home lessons you want incorporate.  About one in seven near-death experiences includes a trip to hell of some sort, so include some of those, but as you might expect the take-home lessons from those are more "fundamentalist" than from experiences that are journeys into the Light.  

Here are a couple of YouTube videos.  The first is a woman who seems to have an LDS background, and the second has a follow-up question-and-answer session that you might want to watch as well:   

If you would like to know more about the thought system that people seem to encounter on the other side, shoot me a message and I'll suggest a source that you might consider.

You are in a wonderful place, stemelbow.  Everything is working for your benefit, and not for yours alone, because we are all far more connected to one another than we'd ever guess from outward appearances.  "Love your neighbor as yourself" means "Love your neighbor as if you and he share the same Self, because you do".  

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.  

Edited September 7, 2016 by Eek!

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

Dude, you need a bigger box.  You've long since outgrown this one.  Your feel the pull to draw a really big circle, one that leaves no-one out.  You're ready for the next level.

You might start with whatever core truths YOU embrace, and start building on that.  An excellent source of building material is the body of near-death experiences that we have access to.  Read and/or watch a whole bunch of them, and come to your own conclusions as to what take-home lessons you want incorporate.  About one in seven near-death experiences includes a trip to hell of some sort, so include some of those, but as you might expect the take-home lessons from those are more "fundamentalist" than from experiences that are journeys into the Light.  

Here are a couple of YouTube videos.  The first is a woman who seems to have an LDS background, and the second has a follow-up question-and-answer session that you might want to watch as well:   

If you would like to know more about the thought system that people seem to encounter on the other side, shoot me a message and I'll suggest a source that you might consider.

You are in a wonderful place, stemelbow.  Everything is working for your benefit, and not for yours alone, because we are all far more connected to one another than we'd ever guess from outward appearances.  "Love your neighbor as yourself" means "Love your neighbor as if you and he share the same Self, because you do".  

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.  

Are you seriously suggesting that is better then boysenberry pie with ice cream?

[Eek!]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Are you seriously suggesting that is better then boysenberry pie with ice cream?

Not in a million years.

[Guest]

Rest assured that everyone living on the earth when Christ comes again (or the building of the Kingdom of God on the Earth) is special. Either because of righteousness or unrighteousness, to receive great reward or great destruction. 

[The Nehor]

Just now, Pa Pa said:

Rest assured that everyone living on the earth when Christ comes again (or the building of the Kingdom of God on the Earth) is special. Either because of righteousness or unrighteousness, to receive great reward or great destruction. 

So probably not me then.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Help me out.

In 25 words or less, with what?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's still morning. 

Make it fruit and heat it up.

[waveslider]

Maybe we are meant to be special in the fact that it is sometimes the few who keep the majority from being destroyed. As in this discussion from Abraham and God about the destruction of a whole city, Sodom:

"And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
Genesis 18:32

With the way things are going I am amazed that the U.S. still stands pretty much unscathed with all the Godlessness that abounds here. Perhaps we shouldn't get to jaded in apathy for our relative luxury in life. We do know that the Earth needs to be cleansed before Christ can come in His glory, perhaps we should be grateful that we have the opportunity to get pie and ice cream, I doubt those will be on the menu much when we are surviving off of our year supplies. But it will be the, "special," people who have those year supplies that will be enabled to help others when the crap starts hitting the fan in the cleansing, or in other words the tribulations. Times are definitely a lot more volatile now days than when I was a kid, when people thought the Brady Bunch was getting a little risque because it was the first T.V. program to ever show a husband and a wife together in the same bed. Now people see, and hear about beheadings and drone bombings so much that we are starting to get desensitized to the violence and just sit back in our easy chairs and couches, and click the remote to the football game, or Kardashians or something instead. While the dog and pony show keeps getting put in our faces as to who is going to take the reigns of our nose diving country, which is spending far more than can be imagined within any reasonable mind, yet never even being able to pay off the interest, let alone start paying off the actual debt. Yet God still blesses America.... Perhaps it is the few are keeping it that way. You really are special! It is just hard to see anything while all is still supposedly well in Zion. Just my two cents worth anyway.

 

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

Rest assured that everyone living on the earth when Christ comes again (or the building of the Kingdom of God on the Earth) is special. Either because of righteousness or unrighteousness, to receive great reward or great destruction. 

How am I supposed to feel rest assured at that?  sounds terrible. 

[stemelbow]

4 hours ago, waveslider said:

Maybe we are meant to be special in the fact that it is sometimes the few who keep the majority from being destroyed. As in this discussion from Abraham and God about the destruction of a whole city, Sodom:

"And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
Genesis 18:32

With the way things are going I am amazed that the U.S. still stands pretty much unscathed with all the Godlessness that abounds here. Perhaps we shouldn't get to jaded in apathy for our relative luxury in life. We do know that the Earth needs to be cleansed before Christ can come in His glory, perhaps we should be grateful that we have the opportunity to get pie and ice cream, I doubt those will be on the menu much when we are surviving off of our year supplies. But it will be the, "special," people who have those year supplies that will be enabled to help others when the crap starts hitting the fan in the cleansing, or in other words the tribulations. Times are definitely a lot more volatile now days than when I was a kid, when people thought the Brady Bunch was getting a little risque because it was the first T.V. program to ever show a husband and a wife together in the same bed. Now people see, and hear about beheadings and drone bombings so much that we are starting to get desensitized to the violence and just sit back in our easy chairs and couches, and click the remote to the football game, or Kardashians or something instead. While the dog and pony show keeps getting put in our faces as to who is going to take the reigns of our nose diving country, which is spending far more than can be imagined within any reasonable mind, yet never even being able to pay off the interest, let alone start paying off the actual debt. Yet God still blesses America.... Perhaps it is the few are keeping it that way. You really are special! It is just hard to see anything while all is still supposedly well in Zion. Just my two cents worth anyway.

 

I'm inclined to view many who are not LDS as the ones who are keeping us safe.  Us LDS are the ones who are getting God upset.  I question whether the church is the light we like to think we are. 

[smac97]

A few thoughts regarding the OP:

1. You said: "Help me out.  I don't get my place in the world.  Growing up in the Church I was told that I was one of a few special people saved to come forth in this day because of my specialness and faithfulness, or whatever.  I never bought it."

I don't recall hearing anything about being "one of a few special people saved to come forth in this day."  It appears to have originated with an EFY instructor, and then took off as an FPR ("Faith-promoting Rumor").  It has been debunked repeatedly (see, e.g., here, here, and here).  These old chestnuts, oddly enough, seem to be getting more play these days, perhaps because the Internet has made us all a bit more savvy, a bit more cautious about unattributed or otherwise questionable quotations / memes (thus resulting in fewer chestnuts / FPRs / hoaxes / memes, hence increasing attention paid to these old ones).

I can't speak as to how often you were taught this thing, but it is not Church doctrine.  I hope you can get past it and forgive those who - probably with good intentions - propagated it.  There are all sorts of ways we can strengthen faith and increase cohesion in our community of faith.  We don't need FPRs and the like.

2. You said: "The impression came to me that we were a strong people...an influential people."

I think the Saints are "strong" in many ways.  In others . . . we have room for substantial improvement.  But faultfinding and navel-gazing will never be very productive.  Rather than bemoan the state of things, let's get out there and improve the state of things.

As far as being "an influential people," I think that has happened.  I think the Saints have been, are, and will continue to exert an influence on society in excess of our relative size as a percentage of the population.

I don't think the body of the Saints is ever going to reach numerically significant numbers (premillennially, anyway).  I don't think that has ever been part of the Plan.  In 1 Nephi 14:12, we are told that Nephi "beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."  

In 3 Nephi 12:13 and Matthew 5:13, the Savior taught that we are to be "the salt of the earth" (consider how only small amounts of salt are used in food).  

In Matthew 13:33, the Savior taught a parable in which "{t}he kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened" (consider how only small amounts of leaven are used in bread).  

In Matthew 7:14, the Savior taught that "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life."

Small dominions.  Salt.  Leaven.  The strait gate.  These lead me to think that the Plan has always anticipated small numbers.  Add to this the strong opposition which the Church faces, as well as apathy outside of the Church (which may be a more formidable impediment to the Church overall than overt opposition) and within (the Latter-day Saints need to be doing a better job at missionary work, retention, fellowshipping, and practicing "pure religion").

Nevertheless, the Plan includes some grand activities to take place during the Millennium which, I hope, can help mitigate concerns about where we are headed:

Quote

 

In the Millennium, when the Kingdom of God is established on the earth in power, glory and perfection, and the reign of wickedness that has so long prevailed is subdued, the Saints of God will have the privilege of building their temples, and of entering into them, becoming, as it were, pillars in the temples of God [see Revelation 3:12], and they will officiate for their dead. Then we will see our friends come up, and perhaps some that we have been acquainted with here. … And we will have revelations to know our forefathers clear back to Father Adam and Mother Eve, and we will enter into the temples of God and officiate for them. Then [children] will be sealed to [parents] until the chain is made perfect back to Adam, so that there will be a perfect chain of Priesthood from Adam to the winding-up scene.

This will be the work of the Latter-day Saints in the Millennium (DBY, 116).

 

We just need to stay the course.  Have faith and seek the Spirit.  Work hard, then rest and be creative.  Serve others.  Repent.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

3. You said: "Where am I?  I don't know.  My heart is everywhere, wondering if there is ever anything I can actually contribute.  Sometimes I'm just desperately doing anything to make me feel like I've tried, but it's nothing."

I recently read an article in The Ensign, "Practice Pure Religion," by Elder Don R. Clarke, formerly a General Authority Seventy.  An excerpt:

Quote

 

A couple of years ago, a young man I’ll call John came to my office shortly after he had returned from his mission.

“Elder Clarke, I need help,” he said to me with great concern. “I loved my mission. It changed me. However, I am losing some of those sacred and special feelings that I felt in the mission field. What can I do to feel like I felt in the mission field?”

I have seen this happen many times. What he was asking was, “What can I do to be happy, feel the Holy Ghost, and be close to the Savior?” This is a question we all should ask every day.

On that afternoon in my office, we turned to James 1:27 and read, “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

Next we read Alma 34:28: “If ye turn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith.”

Then we reviewed the story in the Gospel of John in which Peter and other disciples had gone fishing and caught nothing but then were told by the Savior to move their net to the other side of the boat and caught 153 fish. After they had eaten, Peter and the Savior talked. The Savior knew He was instructing this soon-to-be prophet and President of the Church for one of the last times.

“Lovest thou me?” the Savior asked.

Peter answered, “Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.”

Then the Savior said, “Feed my lambs.”

The Savior asked the same question two more times and then instructed: “Feed my sheep” (see John 21:3–17).

Peter was really being instructed to practice pure religion, or to care for the people. The prophet of God today also cares for and loves the people. President Thomas S. Monson is a great example of one who practices pure religion. He has spent his entire life loving and caring for people.

I have seen many returned missionaries like my friend John. If you ask them why they loved their missions, almost always they will say because of their love for the people. The day missionaries start to care more about others than themselves, they become happy. It is that way for all of us. Our lives will always be happier if we care for and love others.

 

I have found implementing this call to "practice pure religion" to be very uplifting.  Edifying.  Exciting.  

4. You said: "Faith becomes meaningless if there will appear in the Celestial world those who had no faith in mortality.  Impressions of the heart are more meaningful then whether one knows about Jesus or not.  'ahh but the scriptures teach, one must know Jesus'.  I guess.  We'll all know Him.  We're all going to bow and knee and confess, so I fuss about it now as if it really matters?"

A few scriptures come to mind.  First, in D&C 82:3, the Lord teaches that "of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."  Second, in Galatians 6:9 (and 2 Thessalonians 3:13, we are taught to "not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."  Similarly, in D&C 64:33 we are taught to "not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work."

I believe this is happening.  We are "laying the foundation of a great work."  We are engaged in "well doing."  We are taught to anticipate becoming "weary in well doing," and to take efforts to overcome that weariness.  In my view, one of the most vital countermeasures available to us is . . . service to others.  Simple service.  Kindness.  Pure love.  Pure religion.  It has an invigorating, restorative effect every time I do it.

5. You said: "What a mess (referring to my post and the world)."

Yes, it is a mess.  I think the Lord had in mind times like these when He said: "Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail."  (D&C 6:34)

"Do good."  There is a lot of power and hope and joy to be found in following that counsel.

I wish you well.

-Smac

Edited September 8, 2016 by smac97

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A few thoughts regarding the OP:

Thanks for the considered response, Smac.

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

1. You said: "Help me out.  I don't get my place in the world.  Growing up in the Church I was told that I was one of a few special people saved to come forth in this day because of my specialness and faithfulness, or whatever.  I never bought it."

I don't recall hearing anything about being "one of a few special people saved to come forth in this day."  It appears to have originated with an EFY instructor, and then took off as an FPR ("Faith-promoting Rumor").  It has been debunked repeatedly (see, e.g., here, here, and here).  These old chestnuts, oddly enough, seem to be getting more play these days, perhaps because the Internet has made us all a bit more savvy, a bit more cautious about unattributed or otherwise questionable quotations / memes (thus resulting in fewer chestnuts / FPRs / hoaxes / memes, hence increasing attention paid to these old ones).

I can't speak as to how often you were taught this thing, but it is not Church doctrine.  I hope you can get past it and forgive those who - probably with good intentions - propagated it.  There are all sorts of ways we can strengthen faith and increase cohesion in our community of faith.  We don't need FPRs and the like.

Each of your links address one quote attributed to President Packer, which really has not bearing on the notion that we're often taught in various ways that we are a people reserved to come forth in these latter days--a choice group held out for now.  Here are a few quotes and pieces discussing it:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/04/a-chosen-generation?lang=eng

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/jeffrey-r-holland_terror-triumph-wedding-feast/

In effect, the idea that we are a chosen people, above all, for these last days, choice in God's eyes is prevalent in LDS teaching.  I don't know how one escapes it. 

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2. You said: "The impression came to me that we were a strong people...an influential people."

I think the Saints are "strong" in many ways.  In others . . . we have room for substantial improvement.  But faultfinding and navel-gazing will never be very productive.  Rather than bemoan the state of things, let's get out there and improve the state of things.

As far as being "an influential people," I think that has happened.  I think the Saints have been, are, and will continue to exert an influence on society in excess of our relative size as a percentage of the population.

I don't think the body of the Saints is ever going to reach numerically significant numbers (premillennially, anyway).  I don't think that has ever been part of the Plan.  In 1 Nephi 14:12, we are told that Nephi "beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."  

In 3 Nephi 12:13 and Matthew 5:13, the Savior taught that we are to be "the salt of the earth" (consider how only small amounts of salt are used in food).  

In Matthew 13:33, the Savior taught a parable in which "{t}he kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened" (consider how only small amounts of leaven are used in bread).  

In Matthew 7:14, the Savior taught that "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life."

Small dominions.  Salt.  Leaven.  The strait gate.  These lead me to think that the Plan has always anticipated small numbers.  Add to this the strong opposition which the Church faces, as well as apathy outside of the Church (which may be a more formidable impediment to the Church overall than overt opposition) and within (the Latter-day Saints need to be doing a better job at missionary work, retention, fellowshipping, and practicing "pure religion").

Nevertheless, the Plan includes some grand activities to take place during the Millennium which, I hope, can help mitigate concerns about where we are headed:

We just need to stay the course.  Have faith and seek the Spirit.  Work hard, then rest and be creative.  Serve others.  Repent.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

Thanks.  I'm not sure I disagree too much with this.  I don't have any comments to add. 

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

3. You said: "Where am I?  I don't know.  My heart is everywhere, wondering if there is ever anything I can actually contribute.  Sometimes I'm just desperately doing anything to make me feel like I've tried, but it's nothing."

I recently read an article in The Ensign, "Practice Pure Religion," by Elder Don R. Clarke, formerly a General Authority Seventy.  An excerpt:

I have found implementing this call to "practice pure religion" to be very uplifting.  Edifying.  Exciting.

I remember this precisely because as I came home from my mission I had the same concerns and read the exact same passage.  I spent some free time with widows or women who were unlikely to marry, visiting people in their affliction.  I do that now too.  But it feels less interesting when I can't reach very far.  The needy in my neighborhood aren't very needy. 

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

4. You said: "Faith becomes meaningless if there will appear in the Celestial world those who had no faith in mortality.  Impressions of the heart are more meaningful then whether one knows about Jesus or not.  'ahh but the scriptures teach, one must know Jesus'.  I guess.  We'll all know Him.  We're all going to bow and knee and confess, so I fuss about it now as if it really matters?"

A few scriptures come to mind.  First, in D&C 82:3, the Lord teaches that "of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."  Second, in Galatians 6:9 (and 2 Thessalonians 3:13, we are taught to "not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."  Similarly, in D&C 64:33 we are taught to "not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work."

I believe this is happening.  We are "laying the foundation of a great work."  We are engaged in "well doing."  We are taught to anticipate becoming "weary in well doing," and to take efforts to overcome that weariness.  In my view, one of the most vital countermeasures available to us is . . . service to others.  Simple service.  Kindness.  Pure love.  Pure religion.  It has an invigorating, restorative effect every time I do it.

This is simply not unique to the Church.  We bring nothing to the table when most of this is happening outside the Church. 

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

5. You said: "What a mess (referring to my post and the world)."

Yes, it is a mess.  I think the Lord had in mind times like these when He said: "Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail."  (D&C 6:34)

"Do good."  There is a lot of power and hope and joy to be found in following that counsel.

I wish you well.

-Smac

Thanks.  I'm not getting away from this.  The more I do, the smaller I am.  The more I do, the more I realize it is inconsequential. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Each of your links address one quote attributed to President Packer, which really has not bearing on the notion that we're often taught in various ways that we are a people reserved to come forth in these latter days--a choice group held out for now.  Here are a few quotes and pieces discussing it:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/04/a-chosen-generation?lang=eng

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/jeffrey-r-holland_terror-triumph-wedding-feast/

In effect, the idea that we are a chosen people, above all, for these last days, choice in God's eyes is prevalent in LDS teaching.  I don't know how one escapes it. 

I guess I am not reading these talks the same way you are.  I've never considered the Saints "a chosen people, above all."  Consider 2 Nephi 26:33 (emphasis added): "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

Take a look at Pres. Hinckley's remarks (emphasis added):

Quote

These are some of our young people of whom I am proud and concerning whom I have a great sense of gratitude and a compelling sense of optimism. In saying this, I do not wish to infer that all is well with all of them. There are many who have troubles, and many who live far beneath the high expectations we have concerning them. There are also those who waver in their faith and who are troubled and frustrated within themselves. There are some, I regret to say, who step over the line of acceptable moral behavior and suffer great tragedies in their lives. But even considering these, I have great confidence in our young people as a whole. I regard you as the finest generation in the history of the Church. I compliment you, and I have in my heart a great feeling of love and respect and appreciation for you.

And here (emphasis added):

Quote

I return to Peter’s great statement as I make a plea and offer a challenge: “Ye are a chosen generation.” How very true that is. Notwithstanding all of the problems that we have, this, I believe, is the greatest age in the history of the world. And you young people of this generation are a part of it. You are the beneficiaries of it. Its fruits are here to bless your lives if you will grasp them and live worthy of them.

And here (emphases added):

Quote

Truly, my dear young friends, you are a chosen generation. I hope you will never forget it. I hope you will never take it for granted. I hope there will grow in your hearts an overpowering sense of gratitude to God, who has made it possible for you to come upon the earth in this marvelous season of the world’s history.

And here (emphases added):

Quote

To each of you I say this: As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you have been taught many values of divine origin. These values are based on the commandments which the finger of the Lord wrote upon the tablets of stone when Moses spoke with Jehovah upon the mountain. You know them. You are familiar with them.

The values you have been taught likewise are based upon the beatitudes which Jesus spoke to the multitude. These with others of His divine teachings constitute a code of ethics, a code of values, a code of divine doctrine familiar to you and binding upon you.

To these have been added the precepts and commandments of modern revelation.

Combined together these basic, divinely given principles, laws, and commandments must constitute your value system. You cannot escape the consequences of their observance. If you will shape your lives according to their pattern, I do not hesitate to promise that you will know much of peace and happiness, of growth and achievement. To the degree that you fail to observe them, I regretfully say that the fruits will be disappointment, sadness, misery, and even tragedy.

You of this generation, this chosen generation, this royal priesthood, this holy nation, you of this peculiar people, you cannot with impunity follow practices out of harmony with values you have been taught. I challenge you to rise above the sordid elements of the world about you.

You cannot afford to drink beer and other liquors which can rob you of self-control. You cannot afford to smoke cigarettes or use other forms of tobacco and live up to the values which the Lord has set for your guidance. The partaking or distribution of illegal drugs is to be shunned as you would shun a terrible disease.

You cannot afford in any degree to become involved with pornography, whatever its form. You simply cannot afford to become involved in immoral practices—or to let down the bars of sexual restraint. The emotions that stir within you which make boys attractive to girls and girls attractive to boys are part of a divine plan, but they must be restrained, subdued, and kept under control, or they will destroy you and make you unworthy of many of the great blessings which the Lord has in store for you.

I do not read these words as platitudes being heaped upon individuals who are innately superior ("above all" - as you put it) to their fellow brothers and sisters.  If they were so superior, we would hardly expect to see constant exhortations to no succumb to temptations of the flesh.

Rather, I see a manifestation of D&C 82:3: "For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."

I think the Latter-day Saints have been "given much," and hence have a great responsibility to utilize those gifts to further the work of God, and to eschew the sins of the flesh.  Are we doing so?  In many ways, yes.  But we also have a lot of room to improve.

Back to you:

Quote

I remember this precisely because as I came home from my mission I had the same concerns and read the exact same passage.  I spent some free time with widows or women who were unlikely to marry, visiting people in their affliction.  I do that now too.  But it feels less interesting when I can't reach very far.  The needy in my neighborhood aren't very needy. 

There is no shortage of opportunities to serve our fellow brothers and sisters, whether in our neighborhood or beyond it.

Quote

Quote

I believe this is happening.  We are "laying the foundation of a great work."  We are engaged in "well doing."  We are taught to anticipate becoming "weary in well doing," and to take efforts to overcome that weariness.  In my view, one of the most vital countermeasures available to us is . . . service to others.  Simple service.  Kindness.  Pure love.  Pure religion.  It has an invigorating, restorative effect every time I do it.

This is simply not unique to the Church.  We bring nothing to the table when most of this is happening outside the Church. 

I'm not sure I understand your point.  I never said the LDS Church has a monopoly on "well doing."  There are many, many others outside of the Church who are likewise engaged in the work of God.

That said, there are things that are "unique to the Church."  Again, in D&C 82:3, the Lord teaches that "of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."  Much has been given to the members of the LDS Church that is not available outside of it (priesthood authority, saving ordinances, continuing revelation, prophets and apostles, divine mandates pertaining to service, temporal welfare, temple work, etc.).  And even then, the things given to the Saints are designed to benefit all of God's children, not just those within His Church.  Take a look at this recent article about members of the Church assisting in flood relief efforts in Louisiana.  Wouldn't you say this is a pretty decent example of members of the Church serving others?  Assisting their fellow man?  Doing good?  Moving towards "pure religion?"

There are things that we, and only we, can "bring ... to the table," which is why I believe that the LDS Church has a special role to play on this earth.  That role, however, is not defined as something like "the only source of good and decency in the world, with everyone else being wicked and depraved."  There is much good in this world, both within and without the LDS Church.

Quote

Thanks.  I'm not getting away from this.  The more I do, the smaller I am.  The more I do, the more I realize it is inconsequential. 

"And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!"  (D&C 18:15)

I hope I am incorrect in sensing strains of misanthropy in play here.  When we lose hope in the beauty of "do{ing} good," when we write off service to our fellow man as "inconsequential," then we are headed down a dark path.

Again, "pure religion" is, I think, the way to go here.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 8, 2016 by smac97

[stemelbow]

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I guess I am not reading these talks the same way you are.  I've never considered the Saints "a chosen people, above all."

Are we chosen above none?  Above some?  Above most? 

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 Consider 2 Nephi 26:33 (emphasis added): "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

Sure. it's this type of passage that makes me cringe whenever it is taught we are a special people. 

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Take a look at Pres. Hinckley's remarks (emphasis added):

And here (emphasis added):

And here (emphases added):

And here (emphases added):

I do not read these words as platitudes being heaped upon individuals who are innately superior ("above all" - as you put it) to their fellow brothers and sisters.  If they were so superior, we would hardly expect to see constant exhortations to no succumb to temptations of the flesh.

I see you read it differently.  I have no idea our needing to repent and watch out for temptations as counter-acting the notion of superiority, so there's no doubt we're seeing it differently. 

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Rather, I see a manifestation of D&C 82:3: "For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."

I think the Latter-day Saints have been "given much," and hence have a great responsibility to utilize those gifts to further the work of God, and to eschew the sins of the flesh.  Are we doing so?  In many ways, yes.  But we also have a lot of room to improve.

Fair enough. 

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Back to you:

There is no shortage of opportunities to serve our fellow brothers and sisters, whether in our neighborhood or beyond it.

I'm not sure I understand your point.  I never said the LDS Church has a monopoly on "well doing."  There are many, many others outside of the Church who are likewise engaged in the work of God.

That said, there are things that are "unique to the Church."  Again, in D&C 82:3, the Lord teaches that "of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."  Much has been given to the members of the LDS Church that is not available outside of it (priesthood authority, saving ordinances, continuing revelation, prophets and apostles, divine mandates pertaining to service, temporal welfare, temple work, etc.).  And even then, the things given to the Saints are designed to benefit all of God's children, not just those within His Church.  Take a look at this recent article about members of the Church assisting in flood relief efforts in Louisiana.  Wouldn't you say this is a pretty decent example of members of the Church serving others?  Assisting their fellow man?  Doing good?  Moving towards "pure religion?"

There are things that we, and only we, can "bring ... to the table," which is why I believe that the LDS Church has a special role to play on this earth.  That role, however, is not defined as something like "the only source of good and decency in the world, with everyone else being wicked and depraved."  There is much good in this world, both within and without the LDS Church.

"And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!"  (D&C 18:15)

I hope I am incorrect in sensing strains of misanthropy in play here.  When we lose hope in the beauty of "do{ing} good," when we write off service to our fellow man as "inconsequential," then we are headed down a dark path.

Again, "pure religion" is, I think, the way to go here.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm not saying I'm not down a dark path.  But this kind of stuff does bring into question what is really going on. 

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm inclined to view many who are not LDS as the ones who are keeping us safe.  Us LDS are the ones who are getting God upset.  I question whether the church is the light we like to think we are. 

How are the LDS people upsetting God?

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, waveslider said:

How are the LDS people upsetting God?

I don't know.  I'm inclined to feel that way, though.  Because of pride or other such sins, I'd guess. 

[waveslider]

I'm sad to see you feel so down. I think we as a church do have our things we need to work on, so does everyone else.The thing we need to remember is that Christ is the light of the world, shinning in the dark. We, for the most part, as imperfect as we are, are actually striving to follow Christ and help share His light. Christ doesn't want to lay waste to the world, He wants to heal it. This is what He meant when he said:

"46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
John 12:46-47

He also said:

"14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
Matthew 5:14-16

It isn't about pride, even though I'm quite certain there are a few who let things go to their head because we are all human, but it is about serving others, as Smac said. I tend to think deep down inside most members of the church feel this way. I know you have said that it doesn't feel like much by helping others out, in other posts on this thread, since there are few who you can actually reach, but I'm quite certain that to the person whom you do reach, it means the whole world to them. Christ has always done things on a personal basis, out of pure love for each and everyone of us. He absolutely knows, and loves deeply, on a very personal basis every single person. This is what I think Smac was trying to get across, that we can spread that light, on a personal basis, as people who have taken His name upon us, representing Christ himself, as we offer service. This love is infectious. The person reached will be more inclined to want to spread that light as well. We have no way of knowing exactly how much of chain reaction gets started just by helping even one soul. I wish I knew exactly what you are feeling here, because with the written word it is hard to read emotions and body language. I think everyone born on this Earth, that are now living are part of that chosen generation, it is only our job as the ones who know this, to enlighten those who wouldn't otherwise realize this. The best thing I can think to do, is start looking for the good in things, people, the church, and in life generally, because if we only look for the bad, there is far too much bad to uncover in such a mortal and fallen world that the supply of negative things will be unexhaustible. On the same token there is a heck of a lot of good that we won't see if we aren't looking for it. Just my two cents worth anyway.