CV75 Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 13 hours ago, hope_for_things said: The lens of understanding shapes the way individuals view the world, and that tends to change throughout life. Mystery Meat might identify with certainty today, and you may agree with him. 5, 10, 15 years down the road perhaps that earlier certainty will look much different. Ever changed your mind about something? God certainly has... You were making a specific case about Korihor, which isn't correct. He never was certain that God didn't exit, but only lied that he did not believe there was a God; to the contrary, he "always knew that there was a God." He never changed his mind about God's existence, only his honesty about his knowledge. If we all change our mind, why didn't Korihor ever change his mind on that point? If God changes His mind, what do you think is He uncertain about? Do you have some examples where His uncertainty is so exposed? It seems you are conflating certainty with amending, which I think takes on a wonderful meaning in the context of eternal progression.
hope_for_things Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 52 minutes ago, CV75 said: You were making a specific case about Korihor, which isn't correct. He never was certain that God didn't exit, but only lied that he did not believe there was a God; to the contrary, he "always knew that there was a God." He never changed his mind about God's existence, only his honesty about his knowledge. If we all change our mind, why didn't Korihor ever change his mind on that point? If God changes His mind, what do you think is He uncertain about? Do you have some examples where His uncertainty is so exposed? It seems you are conflating certainty with amending, which I think takes on a wonderful meaning in the context of eternal progression. There is so much we don't know about the Korihor story, remember we're reading it through the lens of Alma, Mormon and Joseph Smith (assuming historicity for the sake of argument.) Was his confession coerced? What was going on in Alma's life to influence his telling of this story. What about Joseph Smith's life? How honestly did Korihor's confession accurately reflect his earlier beliefs? We never got to hear Korihor's story told from his personal perspective, just the snippets that are in the scripture. Sounds a little one sided. Was Korihor a real person with a complex and multidimensional life, or is the Korihor narrative being used as a simplistic cautionary tale by Alma to promote adherence to the faith? I could dig up examples of God changing his mind from the scriptures, but as I just implied above, the scriptures contain the views of the writers and these views are filtered through their culture, environment, circumstances etc. So, since we never truly have a clear understanding of God's mind, we can only speculate. It does remind me of some of the debates between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young that I read about in Gary Bergera's Conflict in the Quorum. Orson believed that God was unchanging and that it was heresy to believe in a progressing God. Brigham espoused a progressing God along the lines of Joseph's King Follett discourse. I think Brigham's position on this particular theological debate seems to be more in line with the current teachings of the church today. Do you believe in a progressing God who was once a man? Progression implies learning, growth, and changing of one's mind. 1
CV75 Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: There is so much we don't know about the Korihor story, remember we're reading it through the lens of Alma, Mormon and Joseph Smith (assuming historicity for the sake of argument.) Was his confession coerced? What was going on in Alma's life to influence his telling of this story. What about Joseph Smith's life? How honestly did Korihor's confession accurately reflect his earlier beliefs? We never got to hear Korihor's story told from his personal perspective, just the snippets that are in the scripture. Sounds a little one sided. Was Korihor a real person with a complex and multidimensional life, or is the Korihor narrative being used as a simplistic cautionary tale by Alma to promote adherence to the faith? I could dig up examples of God changing his mind from the scriptures, but as I just implied above, the scriptures contain the views of the writers and these views are filtered through their culture, environment, circumstances etc. So, since we never truly have a clear understanding of God's mind, we can only speculate. It does remind me of some of the debates between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young that I read about in Gary Bergera's Conflict in the Quorum. Orson believed that God was unchanging and that it was heresy to believe in a progressing God. Brigham espoused a progressing God along the lines of Joseph's King Follett discourse. I think Brigham's position on this particular theological debate seems to be more in line with the current teachings of the church today. Do you believe in a progressing God who was once a man? Progression implies learning, growth, and changing of one's mind. LOL are you trying to talk about what you don’t know? While I’m sure Korihor has a backstory and an epilogue (beyond his being trampled to death), we both drew from what we know is written about him! You’re the one who brought him up to show that the capacity to change one’s mind removes his capacity for certitude… Likewise, please provide a reference from the scriptures that portrays God as uncertain! You’re not explaining how uncertainty and changing one’s mind are the same. Critiquing the reliability of the scriptural record and prophets doesn’t accomplish that. Can you see why you seem confused?
jkwilliams Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Korihor always struck me as a one-dimensional stock character, more a literary device than a real person. Of course, one does not read the Book of Mormon looking for complex characters. 1
hope_for_things Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 42 minutes ago, CV75 said: LOL are you trying to talk about what you don’t know? While I’m sure Korihor has a backstory and an epilogue (beyond his being trampled to death), we both drew from what we know is written about him! You’re the one who brought him up to show that the capacity to change one’s mind removes his capacity for certitude… What we know about Korihor is that his story is a characterization with multiple layers of interpretation and distance from the actual person. If you want to call that "knowledge", then go right ahead, I'm pointing out that this knowledge is flawed at best. Likewise, please provide a reference from the scriptures that portrays God as uncertain! I'm not interested in a proof-texting theological debate. You’re not explaining how uncertainty and changing one’s mind are the same. Critiquing the reliability of the scriptural record and prophets doesn’t accomplish that. Can you see why you seem confused? I think uncertainty and changing one's mind go hand in hand. I also think that certainty is a proposition based on feelings more than actual objective facts. When I hear people express their certainty, especially in the Mormon context, it describes their current emotions about an issue more than it does their reasoning about something. That's not to say that the reasoning is always flawed, but that it may be incomplete or in some cases not even directly related to the question at hand. For example, if someone says then know that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, they may or may not have actually specifically prayed to seek for an answer from God about that specific question. Their believe in Monson may be based on their overall feelings towards the church, and prior spiritual experiences. Even these spiritual experiences are rarely evaluated critically. Thats ok, but this supports my point about certainty being an emotional expression.
hope_for_things Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 48 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Korihor always struck me as a one-dimensional stock character, more a literary device than a real person. Of course, one does not read the Book of Mormon looking for complex characters. Yep, my friend was just talking to me about this the other day. Its one of his big problems with the BoM. He feels like the characters are very shallow and lacking in complexity. I believe he would agree with your assessment.
Jeanne Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I didn't say they never talk about it, just that they don't hammer on it week after week, as was claimed. I understand then. I haven't been for awhile obviously. Years ago..that was a taboo subject all over the place. I remember asking my best friend's mom what "gay" was..and I was 14!
CV75 Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: What we know about Korihor is that his story is a characterization with multiple layers of interpretation and distance from the actual person. If you want to call that "knowledge", then go right ahead, I'm pointing out that this knowledge is flawed at best. I'm not interested in a proof-texting theological debate. I think uncertainty and changing one's mind go hand in hand. I also think that certainty is a proposition based on feelings more than actual objective facts. When I hear people express their certainty, especially in the Mormon context, it describes their current emotions about an issue more than it does their reasoning about something. That's not to say that the reasoning is always flawed, but that it may be incomplete or in some cases not even directly related to the question at hand. For example, if someone says then know that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, they may or may not have actually specifically prayed to seek for an answer from God about that specific question. Their believe in Monson may be based on their overall feelings towards the church, and prior spiritual experiences. Even these spiritual experiences are rarely evaluated critically. Thats ok, but this supports my point about certainty being an emotional expression. Flawed knowledge hasn’t much to do with certitude unless one assesses his knowledge to be flawed, in which case he has certitude of his flaw...! This speaks more to Alma 32 (the relationship between faith and knowledge on a particular point, where neither faith nor knowledge is presented as a final state of awareness but as a continuous dynamo of “fruit”) than to uncertainty on a point inevitably changing one’s mind on that point. I’m not asking you to proof-text; you made an assertion based on scripture and I am asking you to share that scripture (unless you were proof-texting in the first place). Both feelings and rationale (each an aspect of the mind) change, and both may be accompanied by a state of certitude at any given time, but that does not make the mind and certitude the same thing. I would say that certitude is synthesized by the mind as much as feelings and rationale are, and is more a function of self-awareness than of instinct or intent. You explain how you see certainty as an emotional expression (meaning uncertainty an expression of reason--really?), but not how you see uncertainty and changing one’s mind as the same.
hope_for_things Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 16 hours ago, CV75 said: Both feelings and rationale (each an aspect of the mind) change, and both may be accompanied by a state of certitude at any given time, but that does not make the mind and certitude the same thing. I would say that certitude is synthesized by the mind as much as feelings and rationale are, and is more a function of self-awareness than of instinct or intent. You explain how you see certainty as an emotional expression (meaning uncertainty an expression of reason--really?), but not how you see uncertainty and changing one’s mind as the same. I tend to agree with these statements, and I'm trying to follow what your main point is about all this and how it ties back to your earlier disagreements with my points about the Korihor story or God.
CV75 Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I tend to agree with these statements, and I'm trying to follow what your main point is about all this and how it ties back to your earlier disagreements with my points about the Korihor story or God. Taking the story at face value, it ties to my disagreement with you about Korihor (he knew all along, an example of his certainty through he confessed to lying after having a change of mind/heart). Accepting that you can dig up scriptural examples of God changing his mind, this ties to my disagreement that changing His mind establishes His uncertainty. You still haven’t explained how you see uncertainty and changing one’s mind as the same.
hope_for_things Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 52 minutes ago, CV75 said: Taking the story at face value, it ties to my disagreement with you about Korihor (he knew all along, an example of his certainty through he confessed to lying after having a change of mind/heart). Accepting that you can dig up scriptural examples of God changing his mind, this ties to my disagreement that changing His mind establishes His uncertainty. You still haven’t explained how you see uncertainty and changing one’s mind as the same. I think that certainty(or uncertainty as you point out) and changing one's mind are related precisely because both are a function of subjective thoughts and emotions. I'm probably just not following you because it sounds like you agree that attitudes like certainty are influenced by multiple factors, and don't necessarily reflect objective facts about a situation. If that is true, I'm not sure why you challenge my assertion about Korihor's story being an unreliable telling with multiple layers of interpretation and motivation. As for God changing his mind, I told you I don't want to get in a scriptural debate about it. It's my belief and I have reasons for believing it based on my experiences and reasoning. Getting into a scripture battle to prove my point wouldn't be worth your time or mine because my belief is only partially informed by scripture.
CV75 Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: you challenge my assertion about Korihor's story being an unreliable telling with multiple layers of interpretation and motivation. I'm not. You don't seem to be picking up what I am actually challenging, despite my having explained it 2 or 3 times. 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: As for God changing his mind, I told you I don't want to get in a scriptural debate about it. I'm seeing the same issue here as above: I'm not asking for your scriptural basis for God changing His mind, but for your deduction that He is uncertain.
Daniel2 Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 On 07/08/2016 at 10:19 PM, Calm said: Hmmm...in my experience those who are most vocal in a positive way about SSM are also most vocal about plural marriage being a bad thing for the Church, not a revelation, etc. For what it's worth, I'm very vocal in positive ways about SSM, but don't recall ever saying that plural marriage is a bad thing for the church. In fact, I've supported the rights of religions and irreligious people that practice consensual, non-abusive polygamous relationships to be able to do so without interference or prohibition from the government.
ERMD Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 On 7/13/2016 at 0:13 PM, jkwilliams said: Korihor always struck me as a one-dimensional stock character, more a literary device than a real person. Of course, one does not read the Book of Mormon looking for complex characters. Yeah, like Lehi, Benjamin, Alma I, Alma II, Corianton, Amulek; all those stock, one-dimensional types.
ERMD Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 On 7/13/2016 at 9:17 AM, hope_for_things said: There is so much we don't know about the Korihor story, remember we're reading it through the lens of Alma, Mormon and Joseph Smith (assuming historicity for the sake of argument.) Right? Pesky prophets and their "scriptures"--only presenting one side of things. "God good! Devil bad!" Puh-leeze!! You'd think they would get with the program. 1
BCSpace Posted July 18, 2016 Posted July 18, 2016 On 7/9/2016 at 7:01 AM, california boy said: oh brother. That is why people get married???? The only other thing would be religious belief. While most would hope that love exists in marriage, love is not a reason as it is clearly evident that marriage is not required to love someone.
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