FairMormon Conference!

[Calm]

Is everyone awake tonight.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is everyone awake tonight.

I'm up transcribing what I can of the Skousen-Carmack presentation so I can get a better handle on reporting it. But I'm fading fast, so I think I'm off to bed.

[Calm]

Do you ever get a written copy where that is possible?  And if you transcribe more of talks than you use, it could be very helpful to pass those on to the FM transcribing committee as long as you have already done the work.  Assuming that is not an issue with work product or something I am clueless about.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you ever get a written copy where that is possible?  

Sometimes. Matt Grow sent me a copy of his written text. He departed from it quite a bit, though, so I had to be careful with it for the sake of accuracy.

Quote

And if you transcribe more of talks than you use, it could be very helpful to pass those on to the FM transcribing committee as long as you have already done the work.  Assuming that is not an issue with work product or something I am clueless about.

Calm, could you PM me? And if you please, do it on my Deseret News account; I'm afraid my inbox on this board is full.

 

[Rivers]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I had occasion this weekend to meet, converse and even break bread with Professor Ralph C. Hancock.

He's not a bad guy either.

 

I really look forward to reading his presentation on love vs. charity.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sometimes. Matt Grow sent me a copy of his written text. He departed from it quite a bit, though, so I had to be careful with it for the sake of accuracy.

Calm, could you PM me? And if you please, do it on my Deseret News account; I'm afraid my inbox on this board is full.

 

Done.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

I really look forward to reading his presentation on love vs. charity.

OK.

While you are waiting, though, you may want to ponder this talk by Elder Dallin H. Oaks. It is somewhat along the lines of Professor Hancock's thesis.

If you want to comment on it, perphaps it would be best to start a separate thread for that purpose so as to not take this one too far afield. Elder Oaks, after all, did not speak at the FairMormon Conference.

(Professor Hancock did not quote from the Oaks talk; it's just something I found online while I was thinking about the topic.)

 

[Rivers]

30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

OK.

While you are waiting, though, you may want to ponder this talk by Elder Dallin H. Oaks. It is somewhat along the lines of Professor Hancock's thesis.

If you want to comment on it, perphaps it would be best to start a separate thread for that purpose so as to not take this one too far afield. Elder Oaks, after all, did not speak at the FairMormon Conference.

(Professor Hancock did not quote from the Oaks talk; it's just something I found online while I was thinking about the topic.)

 

Good talk. Thanks for sharing.

[BHodges]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you'll indulge me, I'll share a quick remembrance about Matt Grow.

Years ago, (I hired on at the Church News/Deseret News in 1985, so this could have been the in the late '80s or perhaps the early '90s) I got a call from a reader who invited me to come out to his home and do a story on his teenage son, who was something of a wunderkind with genealogy. The young man would rush home after school and devote many leisure hours to do research and correspondence pertaining to his ancestral line, Jared and Charity Pratt (parents of Orson and Parley). He had made phenomenal accomplishments over time.

The memory remained vivid in my mind as the years passed. Ere I was aware, the young man grew up, obtained a doctorate at Notre Dame and took a prominent position with the Church History Department as its director of publications and a general editor over the Joseph Smith Papers project, meanwhile becoming an accomplished historian and author, producing, among other things, an outstanding biography of Thomas L. Kane.

The young man's name was Matt Grow. I little realized in the beginning that he would eventually become a frequent source and subject for my future stories.

Edited to add:

Incredibly, I was able just now to easily find that 1993 story about 16-year-old Matt Grow. Here it is.

Holy cow, that's awesome! 

[juliann]

On 8/8/2016 at 4:47 PM, BHodges said:

I appreciate that there are many people who recognize Ralph's references to me personally as being more in the vein of attack than engagement, but I hope people don't lob insults his way on my account. At the risk of sounding corny, I think the overall spirit of the conference this year was one that recognized the need to keep raising the level of our discourse, to infuse our exchanges with charity and long-suffering, even in disagreement. Ally Isom's address, along with Grant Hardy and Patrick Mason touched on this. It was great. 

However, I was beyond disappointed to see Hancock put up a slide with three quotes attributed to you. The first added  words that you did not use. He changed the meaning of your statement  by removing "generally" and replacing it with "the only."  The  third were words attributed to your blog, some even enclosed in quotes which I was unable to find anywhere on the blog he was critiquing. I find this troubling and hope Hancock will issue a correction.

Edited August 17, 2016 by juliann

[juliann]

I was also really surprised to hear Hancock say the precurser of "love wins" mentality was.....Marcionism.  Marcion promoted extreme celibacy which is likely why his sect died out. Very ironic in a talk that included comments about gays.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

I was also really surprised to hear Hancock say the precurser of "love wins" mentality was.....Marcionism.  Marcion promoted extreme celibacy which is likely why his sect died out. Very ironic in a talk that included comments about gays.

Not knowing the first thing about Marcion or his philosophy, I gather that what Hancock is saying is that Marcion discarded the rigidity of Judaism in favor of the apparent inclusiveness in Paul's writings, which he regarded as "foundational." Marcionism is thus the philosophical antecedent of today's "love wins" mentality, which eschews all boundaries and conventions whatsoever in favor of wholesale inclusiveness -- sort of like 1960s "flower power" transplanted to the 21st century.

It's possible, I suppose, that Hancock is misreading Marcion. If so, I wouldn't know, because, as I said, I don't know anything about him. You both are smarter than I in that regard.

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[juliann]

Marcion discarded the Hebrew God. Marcion wasn't the only one who favored Paul's writings but I find inclusiveness a very odd way to describe the appeal when the point was to exclude the OT... which just happened to be part of Jewish and the dominant strand of Christian belief. The problem with Marcion is that there is nothing left from him. Which gives the opponents in the dominant group free rein. Regardless, he lost decidedly so to say he was a precursor of a modern movement just seems a little wacky. Very few would even know who Marcion was let alone be able to describe any conceivable influence. I didn't get any idea of what the "love wins" philosophy is from his talk but from the simple descriptions he was applying, flower power may be an apt title for what he thinks love wins embodies. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by juliann

[Atomic Punk]

On 8/8/2016 at 4:47 PM, BHodges said:

I appreciate that there are many people who recognize Ralph's references to me personally as being more in the vein of attack than engagement, but I hope people don't lob insults his way on my account. At the risk of sounding corny, I think the overall spirit of the conference this year was one that recognized the need to keep raising the level of our discourse, to infuse our exchanges with charity and long-suffering, even in disagreement.

Well, I attended the conference, heard what Ralph Hancock had to say about your comments, and in no way did I regard what he said as an attack on you or personally disparaging. He made it clear he disagreed with you. But there is a distinct difference between attacking you and critiquing what you wrote.  You and others may not like what he said. But for anyone too characterize it as a personal attack or demonization seems to me over the top. Thank you for asking others not to lob insults.

[Calm]

The talk should be up relatively soon.  Perhaps the discussion on whether it was an attack or critique of comments can wait until we have quotes and full context to reference.

[BHodges]

On August 8, 2016 at 8:27 PM, salgare said:

 

I'm looking forward to when these presentations transcripts are available online.  I took my son to a byu classroom presentation several years back (pre-MI changeover) that you were involved in.  I believe you are lifeonaplate correct?, i.e. I've appreciated you even long before that.  Even if my memory has failed me, you are a good man, god speed as you attempt to reduce the destruction and help move the Church forward to a healthier place.

Thanks! 

[BHodges]

On 8/14/2016 at 2:09 PM, Atomic Punk said:

Well, I attended the conference, heard what Ralph Hancock had to say about your comments, and in no way did I regard what he said as an attack on you or personally disparaging. He made it clear he disagreed with you. But there is a distinct difference between attacking you and critiquing what you wrote.  You and others may not like what he said. But for anyone too characterize it as a personal attack or demonization seems to me over the top. Thank you for asking others not to lob insults.

My main concern was the way I felt Ralph misrepresented my writings to fit them into a narrative they don't belong in. I think whenever his remarks are published that can be cleared up, as Juliann already suggested. I don't mind disagreement, I really do welcome it. (Listen to the MIPodcast. All sorts of perspectives on the show.) I don't like being misrepresented, though. Does that make sense? 

Edited August 17, 2016 by BHodges
hard to type on phone