Should beliefs about Homosexuality be included in the (adult) baptismal interview?

[Ahab]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you don't mind my asking, have you married since then and do you have children?

Yes to both questions.  I happily married a wonderful woman named Grace who was widowed at age 34, and I am a step-father to her 2 sons from that marriage.  We have been happily married for about 14 years now.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yes to both questions.  I happily married a wonderful woman named Grace who was widowed at age 34, and I am a step-father to her 2 sons from that marriage.  We have been happily married for about 14 years now.

Thank you, and good for you!

So I take it that, if anything, for many if not most people with SSA, it's not a matter of being all one way or all the other; that they are at some point on a continuum, and that faithful Church members under such circumstance a are not necessarily doomed to a life of celibacy.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes to both questions.  I happily married a wonderful woman named Grace who was widowed at age 34, and I am a step-father to her 2 sons from that marriage.  We have been happily married for about 14 years now.

I am happy that you are so happy!  I mean it.

Do you find yourself more sympathetic or empathizing more than your peers because of life experiences?  I ask I can't always read your mindset.  Thanks!!

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes to both questions.  I happily married a wonderful woman named Grace who was widowed at age 34, and I am a step-father to her 2 sons from that marriage.  We have been happily married for about 14 years now.

I'm happy for you. I've heard that it's pretty common for bisexual people to eventually settle down with an opposite sex partner. I would assume some social pressure is behind that, but of course it really doesn't matter as long as you're happy and healthy. 

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thank you, and good for you!

So I take it that, if anything, for most people with SSA, it's not a matter of being all one way or all the other; that they are at some point on a continuum, and that faithful Church members under such circumstance a are not necessarily doomed to a life of celibacy.

I wouldn't take it for granted that people are on some sort of continuum.  People who experience SSA  may stay stuck seeing only their own sex as sexually attractive or they could somehow someday see the opposite sex as sexually attractive as well.  And the same could be true for OSA too, who could stay stuck seeing only the opposite sex as sexually attractive or maybe somehow someday see their same sex attractive as well. Either/or or both.

I've always been predominantly attracted to the opposite sex, developing an attraction to the same sex sometime in my late teen years.  And I still see both sexes as sexually attractive, with my attraction to some of each sex stronger than others.  And I think the attractions,  themselves, are all well and good, which I think is the point that should be emphasized more.

Both sexes ARE sexually attractive,  and there is nothing wrong with being able to realize that facet of truth.  We're just supposed to limit our sexual relations to those of the opposite sex and encourage those of the same sex to limit their own sexual relations to their own opposite sex spouses.  For both our and their own good.

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am happy that you are so happy!  I mean it.

Do you find yourself more sympathetic or empathizing more than your peers because of life experiences?  I ask I can't always read your mindset.  Thanks!!

Not sure what you meant here.  Who would you consider to be my peers? 

I think it's sad that everybody doesn't see each sex as being sexually attractive, each in their own way, even though some of each sex are more sexually attractive than some others of that same sex, and what I would like to see is each person reserving NOT their ability to see another person as sexually attractive but rather reserving their own sexual relations experiences for someone of the opposite sex that each specific person is married to.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I'm happy for you. I've heard that it's pretty common for bisexual people to eventually settle down with an opposite sex partner. I would assume some social pressure is behind that, but of course it really doesn't matter as long as you're happy and healthy. 

I would suspect that, in this day and age, there is apt to be just as much social pressure for bisexual people to engage in homosexual behavior. Which is why it is necessary, more than ever, for the Church of Jesus Christ to teach the laws of God on this important matter.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

49 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not sure what you meant here.  Who would you consider to be my peers? 

I think it's sad that everybody doesn't see each sex as being sexually attractive, each in their own way, even though some of each sex are more sexually attractive than some others of that same sex, and what I would like to see is each person reserving NOT their ability to see another person as sexually attractive but rather reserving their own sexual relations experiences for someone of the opposite sex that each specific person is married to.

Okay.  So you are more understanding to WHY homosexuality is attractive to some but want to live the tenants of the LDS gospel principles.  You just seem more understanding.

By peers, I meant the LDS people in general and their take on the family.

[Daniel2]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I would suspect that, in this day and age, there is apt to be just as much social pressure for bisexual people to engage in homosexual behavior. Which is why is is necessary, more than ever, for the Church of Jesus Christ to teach the laws of God on this important matter.

I'm not sure I've ever seen "social pressure for bisexual people to engage in homosexual behavior."

Can you elaborate on and/or provide examples of what you mean by that?

[Daniel2]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:18 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Thank you, and good for you!

So I take it that, if anything, for many if not most people with SSA, it's not a matter of being all one way or all the other; that they are at some point on a continuum, and that faithful Church members under such circumstance a are not necessarily doomed to a life of celibacy.

Yes, it's wonderful that Ahab has found a relationship that works for him, which is why I also gave him a rep point for his previous post.  I am entirely supportive of any individual who finds an relationship based on shared honestly and personal integrity that works for them and their spouse.

The error in your response is your presumption to extrapolate his singular experience onto "many if not most people with SSA," especially since Ahab admits he had historically been predominantly attracted to the opposite sex, but developed it during his latter teenage years.   

Neither his, nor mine, nor any other individuals' personal experiences should be used to make pronouncements, pass judgments, or imply abilities or capabilities about any other individual or group of individuals.  We are all unique and what is possible for some may be impossible for others.  We do best when we encourage one another to live up to the ideals expressed in the Serenity Prayer... that is, the ability and serenity to accept the things one cannot change, the courage to change the things one can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

EDITED to remove: "He is a great example of someone who is mostly opposite-sex attracted with a slight (and apparently temporary) attraction towards individuals of his same gender," since Ahab has subsequently said that doesn't apply to him.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Daniel2

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Yes, it's wonderful that Ahab has found a relationship that works for him, which is why I also gave him a rep point for his previous post.  I am entirely supportive of any individual who finds an relationship based on shared honestly and personal integrity that works for them and their spouse.

The error in your response is your presumption to extrapolate his singular experience onto "many if not most people with SSA," especially since Ahab admits he's always been predominantly attracted to the opposite sex.  He is a great example of someone who is mostly opposite-sex attracted with a slight (and apparently temporary) attraction towards individuals of his same gender.  

Neither his, nor mine, nor any other individuals' personal experiences should be used to make pronouncements, pass judgments, or imply abilities or capabilities about any other individual or group of individuals.  We are all unique and what is possible for some may be impossible for others.  We do best when we encourage one another to live up to the ideals expressed in the Serenity Prayer... that is, the ability and serenity to accept the things one can change, the courage to change the things one can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

I'm only saying that it appears someone who is bisexual can make the choice to live the law of chastity as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ and thus to not be condemned to a life of celibacy.

I stand by that position.

[Daniel2]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm only saying that it appears someone who is bisexual can make the choice to live the law of chastity as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ and thus to not be condemned to a life of celibacy.

I stand by that position.

What you wrote above (that you're "only saying that it appears that someone who is bisexual") is VERY different from what you wrote previously (when you extrapolated that "if anything, for many if not most people with SSA, it's not a matter of being all one way or all the other; that they are at some point on a continuum...").

I appreciate you clarifying your intent. 

For what it's worth, I don't know anyone who's claimed that it's impossible for bisexuals "to make the choice to live the law of chastity as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ and thus to not be condemned to a life of celibacy."   That seems to be a strawman, but... OK.  I agree that may be an option for many bisexuals, which is consistent with the views I've always held.  So... I'm with ya on that one, and I'll stand here next to you and your Strawman.  

Edited June 3, 2016 by Daniel2

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

What you wrote above (that you're "only saying that it appears that someone who is bisexual") is VERY different from what you wrote previously (when you extrapolated that "if anything, for many if not most people with SSA, it's not a matter of being all one way or all the other; that they are at some point on a continuum...").

I appreciate you clarifying your intent. 

For what it's worth, I don't know anyone who's claimed that it's impossible for bisexuals "to make the choice to live the law of chastity as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ and thus to not be condemned to a life of celibacy."   That seems to be a strawman, but... OK.  I agree that may be an option for many bisexuals, which is consistent with the views I've always held.  So... I'm with ya on that one, and I'll stand here next to you and your Strawman.  

Ahab presented himself as an instance of what I have long assumed to be the case -- that bisexuals who so desire are capable of expressing the heterosexual side of their nature while never expressing the homosexual side. Within the Church environment, they would thus be capable of being members in good standing while enjoying all the benefits and happiness that come from marriage as God intended it. That should be good news for a lot of folks.

I don't have numbers or percentages at the ready (I assume you don't either), but I suspect that there are many people in the circumstances I have described above who have chosen to live in the way I have described above. I daresay we never hear about these folks, because they have no personal desire or reason to go public with something so inherently private as their own sexual nature. Consequently, we get a distorted picture because we only hear from those who are mad at the Church because it doesn't permit them to express their homosexuality as Church members in good standing.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

I'm not sure I've ever seen "social pressure for bisexual people to engage in homosexual behavior."

Can you elaborate on and/or provide examples of what you mean by that?

Context, Danie2, context.

I was responding to a post from Gray, who said, "I've heard that it's pretty common for bisexual people to eventually settle down with an opposite sex partner. I would assume some social pressure is behind that. ..." He's assuming and I'm assuming.

My assumption is based on personal observation generally that homosexuality has become chic among some younger people, and that there would thus be social pressure for those who could go either way "to eventually settle down with a same-sex partner."

 

[Ahab]

51 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

The error in your response is your presumption to extrapolate his singular experience onto "many if not most people with SSA," especially since Ahab admits he's always been predominantly attracted to the opposite sex.  He is a great example of someone who is mostly opposite-sex attracted with a slight (and apparently temporary) attraction towards individuals of his same gender. 

No!  I still find both sexes sexually attractive, each in their own way, and there is no slight or temporary to it. 

I could still choose to immerse my thoughts and my feelings into any person of any sex and not find anything repugnant or repulsive in the attraction.  I simply choose to not do that now because 1) I have committed to being chaste with my wife and 2) I now know and understand that it is ALWAYS better for ANY person to reserve those thoughts and feelings for only their spouse who should always be of the opposite sex.

Not that there is anything wrong with seeing someone of the same sex as sexually attractive.   Or that there is anything wrong with seeing someone of the opposite sex as sexually attractive,  either.

The choice is about who to have sexual relations with.  Not about who to see as being sexually attractive. And the choice about who to have sexual relations with should always be based on whether or not it is a good thing to have sexual relations with a particular person.  And it is never a good thing to have sexual relations with anyone of the same sex.  Not that it can't feel good or seem like a good thing to do, but as a point of fact it can simply never be a good thing.

 

[Daniel2]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ahab presented himself as an instance of what I have long assumed to be the case -- that bisexuals who so desire are capable of expressing the heterosexual side of their nature while never expressing the homosexual side. Within the Church environment, they would thus be capable of being members in good standing while enjoying all the benefits happiness that come from marriage as God intended it. That should be good news for a lot of folks.

I don't have numbers or percentages at the ready (I assume you don't either), but I suspect that there are many people in the circumstances I have described above who have chosen to live in the way I have described above. I daresay we never hear about these folks, because they have no personal desire or reason to go public with something so inherently private as their own sexual nature. Consequently, we get a distorted picture because we only hear from those who are mad at the Church because it doesn't permit them to express their homosexuality as Church members in good standing.

Hm.  In case you may have either missed or forgotten them, I know that several such individuals have been repeatedly discussed on the board, including links to blog posts in their own words, such as Josh Weed, Ty Mansfield, members of The North Star organization, LDS Voices of Hope project, and even Ahab himself (I was aware of his circumstances already, as he's discussed them here on the board before).  But yes, to repeat: I don't know anyone who's claimed that it's impossible for bisexuals "to make the choice to live the law of chastity as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ and thus to not be condemned to a life of celibacy."   I agree that may be an option for many bisexuals, which is consistent with the views I've always held, and previously disclosed. 

[Daniel2]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No!  I still find both sexes sexually attractive, each in their own way, and there is no slight or temporary to it. 

I could still choose to immerse my thoughts and my feelings into any person of any sex and not find anything repugnant or repulsive in the attraction.  I simply choose to not do that now because 1) I have committed to being chaste with my wife and 2) I now know and understand that it is ALWAYS better for ANY person to reserve those thoughts and feelings for only their spouse who should always be of the opposite sex.

Not that there is anything wrong with seeing someone of the same sex as sexually attractive.   Or that there is anything wrong with seeing someone of the opposite sex as sexually attractive,  either.

The choice is about who to have sexual relations with.  Not about who to see as being sexually attractive. And the choice about who to have sexual relations with should always be based on whether or not it is a good thing to have sexual relations with a particular person.  

Hey, Ahab... I based my comment on your words that you've "always been predominantly attracted to the opposite sex" with only "developing an attraction to the same sex sometime in my late teen years."  Thanks for adding additional clarity to your experiences.

Where we differ is your final statements that,

...it is never a good thing to have sexual relations with anyone of the same sex.  Not that it can't feel good or seem like a good thing to do, but as a point of fact it can simply never be a good thing.

That may be true for you, but it definitely is not true for me.  In fact, just the reverse was true.  For me, it was never a good thing to have sexual relations with a woman.  As a point of fact, it simply never was a good thing.

 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Hey, Ahab... I based my comment on your words that you've "always been predominantly attracted to the opposite sex" with only "developing an attraction to the same sex sometime in my late teen years."  Thanks for adding additional clarity to your experiences.

Where we differ is your final statements that,

 

 

That may be true for you, but it definitely is not true for me.  In fact, just the reverse was true.  For me, it was never a good thing to have sexual relations with a woman.  As a point of fact, it simply never was a good thing.

 

Where we differ probably has more to do with what each of us considers good or evil.

To just be open in this discussion I'll tell you that, based on what you've told me, you simply prefer to do what is evil while you believe it is good, even though in truth it is really evil.

 I don't expect you to agree that it is evil, though, because to you it feels and seems like a good thing.  I just want you to understand how I perceive your situation. 

[Daniel2]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Context, Danie2, context.

I was responding to a post from Gray, who said, "I've heard that it's pretty common for bisexual people to eventually settle down with an opposite sex partner. I would assume some social pressure is behind that. ..." He's assuming and I'm assuming.

My assumption is based on personal observation generally that homosexuality has become chic among some younger people, and that there would thus be social pressure for those who could go either way "to eventually settle down with a same-sex partner."

 

Given the cultural norms surrounding opposite-sex coupling, I think Gray's point that most bisexual people experience social pressure to "eventually settle down with an opposite-sex partner" is logical and matches the reality of how most social and religious institutions have advocated for heterosexual relationships and condemned homosexual ones.

Even with the growing acceptance of gay relationships, however, I haven't seen or felt a swing in the pendulum of social pressure encouraging bisexuals to "eventually settle down with a same-sex partner."  Allowance, yes... But advocacy to the extent it would be viewed as "social pressure for bisexual people to engage in homosexual behavior"...?  Not that I've seen--but I'd be curious to see examples of such, to consider how extensive it really is...

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Given the cultural norms surrounding opposite-sex coupling, I think Gray's point that most bisexual people experience social pressure to "eventually settle down with an opposite-sex partner" is logical and matches the reality of how most social and religious institutions have advocated for heterosexual relationships and condemned homosexual ones.

Even with the growing acceptance of gay relationships, however, I haven't seen or felt a swing in the pendulum of social pressure encouraging bisexuals to "eventually settle down with a same-sex partner."  Allowance, yes... But advocacy to the extent it would be viewed as "social pressure for bisexual people to engage in homosexual behavior"...?  Not that I've seen--but I'd be curious to see examples of such, to consider how extensive it really is...

Fair enough. Since it's not a gay-culture type thing to "settle down" domestically, that's probably not the right choice of words to apply to what social pressure is transpiring. Social pressure for bisexuals to continually gratify homosexual tendencies as opposed to engaging in a committed, heterosexual, domestic relationship is probably closer to the mark.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Hm.  In case you may have either missed or forgotten them, I know that several such individuals have been repeatedly discussed on the board, including links to blog posts in their own words, such as Josh Weed, Ty Mansfield, members of The North Star organization, LDS Voices of Hope project, and even Ahab himself (I was aware of his circumstances already, as he's discussed them here on the board before).  But yes, to repeat: I don't know anyone who's claimed that it's impossible for bisexuals "to make the choice to live the law of chastity as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ and thus to not be condemned to a life of celibacy."   I agree that may be an option for many bisexuals, which is consistent with the views I've always held, and previously disclosed. 

Yes, I'm aware of Ty Mansfield, et al.

I'm saying I suspect strongly that there are many more such individuals that we never hear about because they understandably don't desire to talk publicly about their sex lives. They are apt to live out their lives with those around them never being aware that they have any homosexual tendencies whatever. And that's fine. I'm only saying we are apt to get a distorted picture from the loud and prominent activists who are always saying what a miserable existence the Church of Jesus Christ offers those with SSA.

 

[Jeanne]

As for the OP, IMO, if the church/Bishop was to ask about beliefs of SSM, be prepared for less baptisms.  Their opinions may differ than the church..which they can have, but is stated outright, he/she is not going to get baptized.  To me, this would be another question one would have to skirt around and maybe lie about..and who wants to start out mormon life in apostacy or not being true to oneself. 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, Jeanne said:

As for the OP, IMO, if the church/Bishop was to ask about beliefs of SSM, be prepared for less baptisms.  Their opinions may differ than the church..which they can have, but is stated outright, he/she is not going to get baptized.  To me, this would be another question one would have to skirt around and maybe lie about..and who wants to start out mormon life in apostacy or not being true to oneself. 

People advocating for the Church to permit homosexual behavior ought not be seeking membership in the Church in the first place. Do I want them in the Church? Yes, but not under that circumstance. 

[BCSpace]

On 6/2/2016 at 0:35 PM, cinepro said:

The Washington Post has an interesting article about changing attitudes towards sexuality in America, where they note the following:

 

Obviously, we've all seen the trend for people being more accepting of homosexual behavior.  But the Church still holds that homosexual behavior is sinful.  As missionaries teach and prepare adults for baptism, is this issue something that should be clarified beforehand, even to the degree of making it a clear question for baptism?  Should someone who feels that homosexual behavior is not a sin in any way (but doesn't participate in such behavior because they're not so inclined) be accepted for baptism, or is this an optional belief?

It shouldn't be necessary to ask that question because it's already covered in the baptismal questions which cover homosexual practices and the law of Chasity.  But I would agree that it should be made more clear and such a one should not be admitted for baptism.  Same goes for TR.

[Guest]

On June 3, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Ahab said:

Yes to both questions.  I happily married a wonderful woman named Grace who was widowed at age 34, and I am a step-father to her 2 sons from that marriage.  We have been happily married for about 14 years now.

I married very young, as was my wife. She came from a abusive home (her father was a raging drunk) and she got pregnant at 17. When I met her and started dating her (my) daughter was 14 months old. I went though a sistuation where my bio-father married another woman and had a child by her. He was a bigimst and though he had been married to my mother for ten years and had three children, (he had a job where he could hide his second life) and he chose the other family...which when my mother found out it was no choice at all. My last name used to be Nation. When my mother remarried, the man she married adopted all three children which is why my last name is now Lee. A name that my children bare...I have had a few friends and once a Bishop who said, "Now Sonya is not your real daughter" I told them that she could not be my child any more if I gave birth myself, and if you want to remain my friend, don't ever say this again! God bless you Ahab for marrying a woman with children and caring for them all. Your reward will be great in the eternities. Again, God bless you! I like you even more now.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by Pa Pa