Doctrine 612 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 It was said at church that 90% of people accept the gospel after death, has anyone heard this before and could you give references think you
Duncan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) Pres. John Taylor said it at the Manti Temple dedication and the record for that is the "St. George Historical Record 1864-1902". I got it from a talk given by Elder James O. Mason, emeritus Seventy. http://www.collegiumaesculapium.org/Journals/journals_2003.htm Now, is it the case that 90% will accept the gospel in the next life? who knows but this is where that idea comes from Edited May 2, 2016 by Duncan 4
Robert F. Smith Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Doctrine 612 said: It was said at church that 90% of people accept the gospel after death, has anyone heard this before and could you give references think you I have heard temple sealers suggest an even higher percentage, although I think that was merely their opinion -- an opinion which I share, on the basis of no authority at all. 1
mapman Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) I'm wondering if the primary source is online somewhere for that John Taylor quote. "St. George Historical Record 1864-1902" isn't very specific. Edited May 2, 2016 by mapman
Duncan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 Just now, mapman said: I'm wondering if the primary source is online somewhere. as Barney Rubble used to say, "could be, could be!"
mapman Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Duncan said: as Barney Rubble used to say, "could be, could be!" Some quick googling just turns up that Truman Madsen lifted the paragraph describing John Taylor's comments from Elder Mason word for word into one of his books. I'm guessing that's where the OP's ward member got that from. So far haven't found anything else! It's interesting to me because I have heard people say before that they think that most people in the spirit world will accept the Gospel, but it always seemed to be just personal musings. Edited May 2, 2016 by mapman 3
cdowis Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 As I understand, this specifically refers to the ancestors of members of the church. They laid the groundwork for the restoration of the Gospel for our personal benefit, so that we could provide those saving ordinances to them. The policy of the church is for us to do the ordinances for our own ancestors at this time.
mapman Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) OK, it looks like it might have actually come from Truman Madsen first, not Elder Mason. This article dated 28 July 2003 by Truman Madsen contains this paragraph: "Wilford Woodruff who dedicated the Salt Lake Temple taught that “there will be few if any who will not receive the ordinances of the temple when they are performed for them.”(15) Elder John W. Taylor, while attending the Manti Temple dedication, concluded that only one in ten would refuse the ordinances. He added, “how many who are kept in prison are not ready to come out?”(16)" (source: http://ldsmag.com/article-1-881/) Truman Madsen would later use this article as part of his 2008 book, The Temple: Where Heaven Meets Earth, which I think is probably where the OP's ward member saw the quote. Compare this to the paragraph in Elder Mason's article in the Fall 2003 journal: "Will those in the spirit world accept the ordinances performed for them in the temple? President Wilford W. Woodruff taught “there will be few, if any, who will not receive the ordinances of the temple when they are performed for them”11 President John Taylor, while attending the Manti Temple dedication, concluded that only one in ten would refuse the ordinances. He added, “How many who are kept in prison are not ready to come out.”12 In the resurrection, Joseph Smith taught, “they will fall at the feet of those who have done their work, kiss their feet, embrace their knees, and manifest the most exquisite gratitude.”13" The citation for the quote is the same in both, "St. George Historical Record, 1864-1902." As far as I can tell, there is no record with this title in the Church History Library catolog. It's hard to know which one is original, but it seems that the Truman Madsen article was published slightly before the Mason article. Notice that Truman Madsen is quoting Elder John W. Taylor, while Elder Mason apparently thought this referred to President John Taylor. John W. Taylor is of course a different person that President John Taylor. He was his son, the apostle who was excommunicated for refusing to go along with ceasing to practice plural marriage. Edited to add: President John Taylor was already dead by the time the Manti Temple was dedicated, so it couldn't have been him anyways. Edited May 2, 2016 by mapman 2
carbon dioxide Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: It was said at church that 90% of people accept the gospel after death, has anyone heard this before and could you give references think you I am sure most do because its harder to reject something when it is staring at you in the face. For example its easy for a person to reject the Book of Mormon for a lack of evidence according to their standards. But when they are sitting in the spirit world and they meet some Lamanites or Nephites that where there, it will be much harder to not believe. Plus the atheists and agnostics are not going to have much of argument on saying there is no life after death. They will feel pretty stupid about having had that position. I imagine the conditions for people to accept the gospel are more favorable there.
stemelbow Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 COlor me confused. I thought every knee shall bow and tongue confess...as if everyone will be brought to the point of accepting the gospel. I guess, as we're told, the problem is many to most will accept far too late in the game and won't benefit as some others.
JLHPROF Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: COlor me confused. I thought every knee shall bow and tongue confess...as if everyone will be brought to the point of accepting the gospel. I guess, as we're told, the problem is many to most will accept far too late in the game and won't benefit as some others. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess means that there will be none left who can deny that Jesus is the Christ. This is why all will be resurrected and none shall be lost except the sons of Perdition. Acceptance of the gospel and receiving of the ordinances necessary to enter into the gate of the Celestial Kingdom has never been taught to be a majority of people. Not an issue of too late, although the final judgment means exactly that. Final.
stemelbow Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 59 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess means that there will be none left who can deny that Jesus is the Christ. This is why all will be resurrected and none shall be lost except the sons of Perdition. Acceptance of the gospel and receiving of the ordinances necessary to enter into the gate of the Celestial Kingdom has never been taught to be a majority of people. Not an issue of too late, although the final judgment means exactly that. Final. I don't see why the hell it matters if, in the end, people come around and accept. The parable of the workers in the vineyard seems to argue against your notion. We can accept in the last hour, I thought. Does that mean we can accept after we are judged and still find blessing? Perhaps so, since we're all supposedly going to reach salvation into a kingdom.
Guest Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 15 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: It was said at church that 90% of people accept the gospel after death, has anyone heard this before and could you give references think you No one knows the % of people will accept the Gospel in the Spirit World. I have never heard this number before, but the scriptures do make clear "that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ". They will do so because it cannot be denied, or self evident. But this not mean all or even most will accept him as their Saviour. Demons believe and bear witness of who he is, but still hate and curse him. If only knowing who he is were enough, but for those that might receive all of his blessings must also pick up their cross and follow him. So many believe that Christianity ends at the altar (or is it alter).
Duncan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 I think the knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the Lord won't erase our unrepentant past, it's just a confession that that Jesus is the Promised Messiah but as was stated previously the devils believe but that knowledge didn't do anything for them so why would it for any who won't accept Christ?
JLHPROF Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I don't see why the hell it matters if, in the end, people come around and accept. The parable of the workers in the vineyard seems to argue against your notion. We can accept in the last hour, I thought. Does that mean we can accept after we are judged and still find blessing? Perhaps so, since we're all supposedly going to reach salvation into a kingdom. Because accepting Christ as Lord gains access to the atonement. Following Christ gains access to his Kingdom. Confusing salvation from the grave (resurrection), salvation in God's Kingdom, and exaltation in God's Kingdom seems to be a common practice, but in Mormonism the distinctions are clearly made even if other Christian denominations doubt their existence.
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