Ahab Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 The more I think about it the more I think that the reason atheists do not believe in God is that they just do not know what God really is. And I do mean what, rather than who. To not believe in God is basically the same thing to me as to not believe in the kind of being we are, and at the least everyone should be able to believe that we exist. So what recommendations do you have for helping someone to believe in God? Say someone for example who identifies himself as a secular humanist and thinks that anybody in any religion that believes in God is a brainwashed fricken idiot! (My cousin actually used the even more crude translation of fricken but I think you can still get his point). Do you think it would help more to explain what the word God means or to try to not use that word at all when someone doesn't know what God is? If you choose to respond on this thread please make short pithy comments as much as possible rather than essay-ish posts. My cousin seems to have a very short attention span and I'm going to try to use your recommendations to try to help him.
Gray Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 18 minutes ago, Ahab said: The more I think about it the more I think that the reason atheists do not believe in God is that they just do not know what God really is. And I do mean what, rather than who. To not believe in God is basically the same thing to me as to not believe in the kind of being we are, and at the least everyone should be able to believe that we exist. So what recommendations do you have for helping someone to believe in God? Say someone for example who identifies himself as a secular humanist and thinks that anybody in any religion that believes in God is a brainwashed fricken idiot! (My cousin actually used the even more crude translation of fricken but I think you can still get his point). Do you think it would help more to explain what the word God means or to try to not use that word at all when someone doesn't know what God is? If you choose to respond on this thread please make short pithy comments as much as possible rather than essay-ish posts. My cousin seems to have a very short attention span and I'm going to try to use your recommendations to try to help him. Most atheists who reject belief in God are reacting to the mainstream idea about God - the being who set the universe in motion, who is timeless, all powerful, the first cause of all existence, etc. The LDS concept of God is of course quite different. God is an exalted man, a physical being from another world, and not the first cause of all existence. While conceptually that might appeal more to atheists (particularly someone like Richard Dawkins), the hurdle is then the problem of finding evidence that such a being exists. No direct evidence exists, and most atheists will ask for it. If your cousin is amenable to personal, subjective evidence, you could always mention Moroni's challenge. But he may interpret the results (whatever those might be) differently than you would. 3
Ahab Posted April 26, 2016 Author Posted April 26, 2016 Good thoughts Gray but in too many words. And I do not agree that there is no evidence that the true God exists, because we are it. One hurdle maybe is the question of where did we come from but the idea that our ancestors were like us shouldn't be seen as anything other than what we are accustomed to seeing. Like begets like, so the most obvious and most reasonable explanation for where we, people, came from is from other people, rather than some kind of being other than people. That's too many words for him, though. I need some way to explain what God is without using a whole lot of words.
The Nehor Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 Ask God to smite him with leprosy or something. 1
Ahab Posted April 26, 2016 Author Posted April 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Ask God to smite him with leprosy or something. Hmm. I've been asking God to give him a stroke of intelligent thought and the ability to see that what I have been saying makes sense. Does that qualify as one of those somethings that you have in mind? Leprosy is icky and I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
Gray Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Good thoughts Gray but in too many words. And I do not agree that there is no evidence that the true God exists, because we are it. One hurdle maybe is the question of where did we come from but the idea that our ancestors were like us shouldn't be seen as anything other than what we are accustomed to seeing. Like begets like, so the most obvious and most reasonable explanation for where we, people, came from is from other people, rather than some kind of being other than people. That's too many words for him, though. I need some way to explain what God is without using a whole lot of words. Hi Ahab, I did say direct evidence. God is only one of many possible explanations for the existence of life. And even then, ultimately in Mormon theology there is NO explanation for why life exists in general. God isn't the ultimate author of life because God was once a human being too. Maybe that's something that could appeal to an atheist. For atheists and ultimately for Mormons, there is no ultimate answer there for why things and life forms exist. I'm not sure how to boil this down for your cousin, or what exactly might help him. Everyone has different reasons for believing or not believing.
mnn727 Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) I work with a very vocal atheist. One day I asked him to describe the God he does not believe in. You know, I could never believe in a God like that either. ie, explain who God is, and what his attributes are, and what his purpose is and most importantly what his purposes are not. Some people have very strange ideas about God and what he does. Edited April 26, 2016 by mnn727 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson provides the consensus among members of his profession in saying just last year: Quote I have a strong suspicion that something is true given the evidence, and that’s how I feel about life in the universe. You can look at how long the universe has existed. You can look at the ingredients for life as we know it. You can look at how common those very ingredients are throughout the galaxy and throughout the universe. You can look at how quickly life took hold on Earth—basically within a couple of hundred million years after it possibly could have formed, it formed—and that’s small compared with the age of the Earth, which is 4.5 billion years. And if you look at how many stars there are, and how many planets there are that are likely to be around them based on new data, you add all this up and say, “It would be inexcusably egocentric to suggest that we were the only life in the universe.” That is the posture that informed people take who study this. The prospect of there being life is not an exotic thought. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/31/neil-degrasse-tyson-defends-scientology-and-the-bush-administration-s-science-record.html He and other scientists, such as Richard Dawkins, take the view that, among the many planets in the universe with life, there will be those much older than our system, with sentient life far more advanced than ours -- which would seem "godlike" to us. Based on known physics, chemistry, and biology, that is a given. The gods certainly exist. It is merely a question of defining what they might be capable of, even if bound only by natural law (which is the nature of the Mormon God/gods).. 2
theplains Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Based on known physics, chemistry, and biology, that is a given. The gods certainly exist. It is merely a question of defining what they might be capable of, even if bound only by natural law (which is the nature of the Mormon God/gods).. Which Mormon God are you referring to? Jim
Robert F. Smith Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 8 minutes ago, theplains said: Which Mormon God are you referring to? Jim Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6). 1
consiglieri Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6). Heretic alert!
Robert F. Smith Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 Just now, consiglieri said: Heretic alert! You may mean that tongue in cheek, but it is solidly in line with Mormon theology, which puts God the Father at the top as the presiding God in a triune society of gods for this Earth, one among an infinity of gods throughout the universe or multiverse -- worlds without end. 1
oats Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) My tiny brain, its limited senses, and its general need for caricature has defined that God is a standard of truth that we sense exists, that is beyond which we have obtained, and that we that we hope to obtain. ***That we go through great struggle to define and minimize, in a manner simple enough for us to understand, what God is, what is real, and what laws exist only attests to our inherent blindness and very partial understanding of what is real. Edited April 27, 2016 by oats
Ahab Posted April 26, 2016 Author Posted April 26, 2016 34 minutes ago, theplains said: Which Mormon God are you referring to? Jim They are all the same God with God defined as the most supreme kind of being in all of existence. Not all the same person but certainly the same kind of being. The kind of being we refer to as God. Using the term God to refer to ONLY our Father in heaven is unbiblical.
Ahab Posted April 26, 2016 Author Posted April 26, 2016 2 hours ago, Gray said: Hi Ahab, I did say direct evidence. God is only one of many possible explanations for the existence of life. And even then, ultimately in Mormon theology there is NO explanation for why life exists in general. God isn't the ultimate author of life because God was once a human being too. Maybe that's something that could appeal to an atheist. For atheists and ultimately for Mormons, there is no ultimate answer there for why things and life forms exist. I'm not sure how to boil this down for your cousin, or what exactly might help him. Everyone has different reasons for believing or not believing. My cousin, the cousin I'm talking about that I communicate with sporadically on Facebook, considers himself to be a scientist and the only kind of evidence he will accept, or so he says, is the kind he can see and experience for himself. So the only kind of evidence I am interested in showing him is the kind he can see for himself. In this case evidence of where babies/offspring comes from. Our kind of babies/offspring. People. Where people come from, which is from other people. No need to try to use our imaginations here. No need to suppose people come from anything else other than other people. No problem at all to show him that kind of evidence. It's all over the internet if he can't find a real life example for himself.
Ahab Posted April 27, 2016 Author Posted April 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson provides the consensus among members of his profession in saying just last year: He and other scientists, such as Richard Dawkins, take the view that, among the many planets in the universe with life, there will be those much older than our system, with sentient life far more advanced than ours -- which would seem "godlike" to us. Based on known physics, chemistry, and biology, that is a given. The gods certainly exist. It is merely a question of defining what they might be capable of, even if bound only by natural law (which is the nature of the Mormon God/gods).. Thank you. I've been considering using the word "alien" and the term "from outer space" thinking it might help him to grasp the idea of God I have been talking about, while being careful to explain that the kind of alien I am talking about is the same kind of being we are. He doesn't buy into the idea that we are related to apes so I don't think it would be too hard for him to get the right idea.
The Nehor Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Ahab said: My cousin, the cousin I'm talking about that I communicate with sporadically on Facebook, considers himself to be a scientist and the only kind of evidence he will accept, or so he says, is the kind he can see and experience for himself. So the only kind of evidence I am interested in showing him is the kind he can see for himself. In this case evidence of where babies/offspring comes from. Our kind of babies/offspring. People. Where people come from, which is from other people. No need to try to use our imaginations here. No need to suppose people come from anything else other than other people. No problem at all to show him that kind of evidence. It's all over the internet if he can't find a real life example for himself. You are not going to win taking that approach. God has not provided shareable proof of his existence yet.
Boanerges Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 Most atheists I have encountered think all believers in God think the earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days. Such is not the case, of course. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Ahab said: They are all the same God with God defined as the most supreme kind of being in all of existence. Not all the same person but certainly the same kind of being. The kind of being we refer to as God. Using the term God to refer to ONLY our Father in heaven is unbiblical. I Corinthians 8:5-6 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Thank you. I've been considering using the word "alien" and the term "from outer space" thinking it might help him to grasp the idea of God I have been talking about, while being careful to explain that the kind of alien I am talking about is the same kind of being we are. He doesn't buy into the idea that we are related to apes so I don't think it would be too hard for him to get the right idea. Tell him that we humans are of the genus and species of God, that we are gods in embryo.
Rico Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 Ahab, 1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause. 2. The Universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the Universe has a Cause. That's all you really need to tell him. But just so you understand what those three lines of reasoning mean, here's a good video to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CulBuMCLg0 If he likes watching videos instead reading texts and texts of explanations, let him watch the video as well. It is the sad state of secular education that a generation of young secularists have come to age with no more motivation to read. Georges Lemaitre, the scientist who first proposed the so-called "Big Bang Theory" of the Universe was a Catholic priest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre When Galileo observed the heavens, the telescope he used was owned by the Catholic Church. Between 1592-1610, he was a professor of astronomy in the University of Padua. This university was built by the Catholic Church in 1222 and is one of the first universities of early modern Europe. The Catholic Church invented the University school system some 300 years before Galileo was born. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei Therefore, contrary to your cousins's beliefs, it is not true that people who believe in God are brainwashed idiots. It is actually the other way around. Those who deny God are bound to be trapped by the vicious cycle of their circular reasoning.
Atheist Mormon Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 11 hours ago, Ahab said: The more I think about it the more I think that the reason atheists do not believe in God is that they just do not know what God really is. And I do mean what, rather than who. To not believe in God is basically the same thing to me as to not believe in the kind of being we are, and at the least everyone should be able to believe that we exist. So what recommendations do you have for helping someone to believe in God? Say someone for example who identifies himself as a secular humanist and thinks that anybody in any religion that believes in God is a brainwashed fricken idiot! (My cousin actually used the even more crude translation of fricken but I think you can still get his point). Do you think it would help more to explain what the word God means or to try to not use that word at all when someone doesn't know what God is? If you choose to respond on this thread please make short pithy comments as much as possible rather than essay-ish posts. My cousin seems to have a very short attention span and I'm going to try to use your recommendations to try to help him. "The more I think about it the more I think that the reason atheists do not believe in God is that they just do not know what God really is" And whose fault is that? I have a slew of suggestions how could he make it easier on us skeptics. The problem is (for me) I don't want to take anyone's word for it.
Gray Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 4 hours ago, Rico said: Ahab, 1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause. 2. The Universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the Universe has a Cause. That's all you really need to tell him. But just so you understand what those three lines of reasoning mean, here's a good video to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CulBuMCLg0 If he likes watching videos instead reading texts and texts of explanations, let him watch the video as well. It is the sad state of secular education that a generation of young secularists have come to age with no more motivation to read. Georges Lemaitre, the scientist who first proposed the so-called "Big Bang Theory" of the Universe was a Catholic priest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre When Galileo observed the heavens, the telescope he used was owned by the Catholic Church. Between 1592-1610, he was a professor of astronomy in the University of Padua. This university was built by the Catholic Church in 1222 and is one of the first universities of early modern Europe. The Catholic Church invented the University school system some 300 years before Galileo was born. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei Therefore, contrary to your cousins's beliefs, it is not true that people who believe in God are brainwashed idiots. It is actually the other way around. Those who deny God are bound to be trapped by the vicious cycle of their circular reasoning. But in Mormon theology, God is not the first cause. That line of reasoning works with traditional Christian theology, but not Mormon theology.
thesometimesaint Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 13 hours ago, Ahab said: Thank you. I've been considering using the word "alien" and the term "from outer space" thinking it might help him to grasp the idea of God I have been talking about, while being careful to explain that the kind of alien I am talking about is the same kind of being we are. He doesn't buy into the idea that we are related to apes so I don't think it would be too hard for him to get the right idea. Biologically we are Apes. The only remaining species of our "kind". I think Thomas Jefferson said it best. " But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
thesometimesaint Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 4 hours ago, Rico said: Ahab, 1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause. 2. The Universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the Universe has a Cause. That's all you really need to tell him. But just so you understand what those three lines of reasoning mean, here's a good video to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CulBuMCLg0 If he likes watching videos instead reading texts and texts of explanations, let him watch the video as well. It is the sad state of secular education that a generation of young secularists have come to age with no more motivation to read. Georges Lemaitre, the scientist who first proposed the so-called "Big Bang Theory" of the Universe was a Catholic priest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre When Galileo observed the heavens, the telescope he used was owned by the Catholic Church. Between 1592-1610, he was a professor of astronomy in the University of Padua. This university was built by the Catholic Church in 1222 and is one of the first universities of early modern Europe. The Catholic Church invented the University school system some 300 years before Galileo was born. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei Therefore, contrary to your cousins's beliefs, it is not true that people who believe in God are brainwashed idiots. It is actually the other way around. Those who deny God are bound to be trapped by the vicious cycle of their circular reasoning. SEE http://evolution.mbdojo.com/conflict.html
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