Jacob 5 and "Others" in the Book of Mormon

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I think you need to back up and read the whole enchilada again, The Vineyard is the whole world and it begins with the birth of the nation of Israel (Jacob who became Israel ) and goes until the Second Coming. Many branches were planted, grafted or whatever all over the world in places like Ireland, Europe, India, Malaysia, Ethiopia, the Americas etc. Have you not studied the Lost Ten Tribes? You could start with the legend of Tea Tephi. or not. http://asis.com/users/stag/jerrytea.html The faithless always assume a gotchya. This should not surprise me.

This is what people do not see while they complain about the length of the chapter.  It seems repetitive because mankind is repetitive.  The chapter depicts the WHOLE HISTORY of mankind- including the future.  No wonder it is so long!!  OF COURSE it includes "others"!

[Bobbieaware]

33 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Ether 15:33 does not say that the records were placed out in the open.  It says that they were "hid."

The Mulekites came out of the Levant soon after 586 BC.  The final wars of the Jaredites may have occurred as early as the 6th century BC, but some scholars place them as late as the second century BC -- shortly before the records were discovered.  The Book of Mormon does not provide a specific Jaredite chronology.

Doesn't it seem the truth lies somewhere in the middle? While it's true the plates were indeed hidden, it appears they were not well hidden because Ether realized there was a great need for the sacred record to be discovered to fulfill the will and purposes of God. Unlike the plates of the Book of Mormon -- which were well-hidden and would surely never have been discovered without heavenly intervention -- the Jaredite plates were deliberately "hidden" in such a manner that, much more likely than not, they would be discovered when the right eyes arrived.

[longview]

20 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I think you need to back up and read the whole enchilada again, The Vineyard is the whole world and it begins with the birth of the nation of Israel (Jacob who became Israel ) and goes until the Second Coming. Many branches were planted, grafted or whatever all over the world in places like Ireland, Europe, India, Malaysia, Ethiopia, the Americas etc. Have you not studied the Lost Ten Tribes? You could start with the legend of Tea Tephi. or not. http://asis.com/users/stag/jerrytea.html The faithless always assume a gotchya. This should not surprise me.

Could Mulek and his merry men have tagged along with Jeremiah's party?  And the prophet could have commanded Mulek and his band to sail on further westward?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Could Mulek and his merry men have tagged along with Jeremiah's party?  And the prophet could have commanded Mulek and his band to sail on further westward?

Doubtful, because Jeremiah went to Egypt later.  Mulek may have been escorted to either Egypt or Phoenicia, where he could have taken a boat with a largely non-Israelite crew to the New World.

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, longview said:

Could Mulek and his merry men have tagged along with Jeremiah's party?  And the prophet could have commanded Mulek and his band to sail on further westward?

It's a bear to sail west from the UK, much easier from Gibraltar or further south.

[JarMan]

On April 20, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Jacob 5 does not have narrow, hemispheric application.  It is worldwide in scope, and was written by an ancient Israelite prophet.  The allegory is well-known in ancient Israel, and is used by many prophets.

I realize the allegory is world wide. The OP mentions it in the context of determining whether or not there were others and of pre-Lehites being cut down so I was addressing those specific points. 

You've piqued my interest in mentioning the allegory was well known in ancient Israel. Are there some sources you could point me to to further explore this?

[Robert F. Smith]

17 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I realize the allegory is world wide. The OP mentions it in the context of determining whether or not there were others and of pre-Lehites being cut down so I was addressing those specific points. 

You've piqued my interest in mentioning the allegory was well known in ancient Israel. Are there some sources you could point me to to further explore this?

The allegory is quoted from the words of Zenos from the Brass Plates, and thus is an Old World allegory, which is very broadly based so as to deal with all mankind from the beginning of the Chosen People till the End Time.  As such it deals with Israel as the OT "vine" ("vineyard" Jac 5:3) which was brought "out of Egypt" and "planted" in a land prepared for it, where it was caused "to take deep root," and in which its "boughs" and "branches" spread like those of a cedar tree (Psalm 80:8-10).  The Man or Master of the Vineyard in Jacob 5 is God (and his servants), as the planter, waterer, and grower (I Cor 3:5-9).  Such imagery is quite common in the Bible (Isa 5:1-7, 27:6, 37:31, Hos 14:5-8, Zech 8:12-13), and Zenos has another horticultural parable in Alma 32. 

[PeterPear]

On April 21, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The allegory is quoted from the words of Zenos from the Brass Plates, and thus is an Old World allegory, which is very broadly based so as to deal with all mankind from the beginning of the Chosen People till the End Time.  As such it deals with Israel as the OT "vine" ("vineyard" Jac 5:3) which was brought "out of Egypt" and "planted" in a land prepared for it, where it was caused "to take deep root," and in which its "boughs" and "branches" spread like those of a cedar tree (Psalm 80:8-10).  The Man or Master of the Vineyard in Jacob 5 is God (and his servants), as the planter, waterer, and grower (I Cor 3:5-9).  Such imagery is quite common in the Bible (Isa 5:1-7, 27:6, 37:31, Hos 14:5-8, Zech 8:12-13), and Zenos has another horticultural parable in Alma 32. 

So you're saying Jacob should not have quoted it because it was an "Old World allegory, which is very broadly based..."

[PeterPear]

On April 20, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Anijen said:

Emphasis mine.

Wow, you rely on scripture to make a certain point, yet the very same scripture verses you quote, well, er, um, they don't make your point.

The Prophet Moroni hid his plates in a manner so the Lamanites would not find them. Because there were "others" running around after the Nephites were destroyed; the others being the Lamanites.

But Ether had no such concern. He hid his plates in a manner that they could be found because there were no others to destroy them: no surviving Jaredites, no others.

But for you Mesoamerica lightweights: why didn't the Maya - who you allege the Lehites landed among, who you allege the Nephites lived among; the Maya who ran around with parrot feathers in their hair, who worshipped the corn god, the jaguar god, the moon god, the sun god, the howler monkey god, had glyphs which no where resembled the characters given to Martin Harris..the Maya you worship, fawn over, speak and spoke of as if they were Nephites, but admit they never were...who you claim the Nephites lived among which Nephites kept the Law of Moses for 600 years, while the Maya you allege the Nephites lived among did not keep the law of Moses...

..why didn't these Maya find Ether's plates YEARS before the People of Limhi who were lost in the wilderness after some 3 generations away from the land of Zarahemla and became lost trying to find said same land and came upon the plates hid in a manner by Ether so they could be found?

The answer is you Mesoamerica lightweights do not know the Book of Mormon.

Edited April 30, 2016 by PeterPear

[cdowis]

Is this a serious question?  "Excuse me, sir, but are you a Jaredite?  If not, we will leave you alone."  War of extinction does not work that way.

Your "lightweight" brain was incapable of conceiving that, not only were the Jaredites destroyed, but everyone who lived in the vicinity.  Limhi's expedition made it clear that it was utterly devoid of any inhabitants.  Also, centuries had allowed the tropical forest to take over the area, and in this vast land it was only good fortune (inspiration) that Limhi's expedition was able to find these plates.

It was miraculous that anyone was able to discover them. 

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by cdowis

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, PeterPear said:

..why didn't these Maya find Ether's plates YEARS before the People of Limhi who were lost in the wilderness after some 3 generations away from the land of Zarahemla and became lost trying to find said same land and came upon the plates hid in a manner by Ether so they could be found?

Overlooking your offputting tone, I think your argument is valid. The verse does sound like the plates of Ether are hidden in an open place where they could be easily found by anyone passing through. But there's a problem with your argument: Mulekites.

If we read the Book of Omni we know there were others in the area. The People of Zarahemla were there for many centuries and they obviously were wandering around the Jaredite lands because they found a large stone with Jaredite writings, and they also found Coriantumr. But they did not find Ether's plates of gold. Why? Because they were hidden in a way that they could be found by the Limhi party, several generations later.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, PeterPear said:

 

Quote

On 4/21/2016 at 5:11 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The allegory is quoted from the words of Zenos from the Brass Plates, and thus is an Old World allegory, which is very broadly based so as to deal with all mankind from the beginning of the Chosen People till the End Time.  As such it deals with Israel as the OT "vine" ("vineyard" Jac 5:3) which was brought "out of Egypt" and "planted" in a land prepared for it, where it was caused "to take deep root," and in which its "boughs" and "branches" spread like those of a cedar tree (Psalm 80:8-10).  The Man or Master of the Vineyard in Jacob 5 is God (and his servants), as the planter, waterer, and grower (I Cor 3:5-9).  Such imagery is quite common in the Bible (Isa 5:1-7, 27:6, 37:31, Hos 14:5-8, Zech 8:12-13), and Zenos has another horticultural parable in Alma 32. 

So you're saying Jacob should not have quoted it because it was an "Old World allegory, which is very broadly based..."

I said no such thing, Pete.  You really need to learn how to read.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Robert F. Smith