Revisiting the 7 Deadly Heresies

[JLHPROF]

As per Elder McConkie's famous speech the heretical beliefs are:

1. God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
2. Church members can harmonize evolution and doctrine.
3. Temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation.
4. The doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.
5. There is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds.
6. Adam is our father and our god, ... he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and ... he is the one we worship.
7. We must be perfect to gain salvation.

 

I know these have been discussed before.  Maybe time for a revisit?
So which do you agree with Elder McConkie should be considered heretical beliefs?  And which (if any) do you actually believe.
And for the most fun discussion - which are true but only if you explain the a certain way, otherwise they are false?

Personally, I am a big believer in #s 1, 3 (with qualification), 5 (with qualification), 6, and 7 (with qualification).
I would consider 2, and 4 to be false but there are many on the board who believe #2.

As Salgare put it earlier, I'm just a big old heretic...how about you?

 

[Boanerges]

Thanks for starting the topic. I had recently re-read that talk because someone had said something at church that reminded me of it and I truly did want to try to see where I stand today on it. Two caveats: I, too, am a heretic, and I am not a huge fan of Bruce R.

1. This is a tricky one for me because I question God's omnipotence and I'm not sure He can't learn  and progress. On the other hand I'd like to believe God is omnipotent. So, if God is as He is in LDS theology, then I believe McConkie is right on this one.

2. This one's a lot less tricky. I believe evolution (and the Big Bang) may very well be how God did it. I don't know that's how, but it seems harmonizable to me. That said, I am open to other ideas, but not that the earth is 6 thousand years old and various apologetic explanations regarding that. And, I will note that the church has no official position on evolution.

3. I don't believe temple marriage assures exaltation. Why I believe that is probably different from why more mainstream Mormons believe it, but I'm just happy we can agree on the principle.

4. I do believe salvation for the dead (as much as I believe in the concept) does offer people a second chance.

5. I frankly don't buy the whole three kingdoms divided into kingdoms, etc. I do believe "heaven" and "hell" are more a state of mind than a state of being. I also believe we know very little about the afterlife and I choose to believe that which is stated in the Bible (without reading between the lines) over other sources. Progression? Perhaps, but I'm not sure there's anything to progress to or from. (Related to this and the one above, I do like the Catholic theology of purgatory.)

6. Another easy one, I do not believe Adam is our father or anything like unto it.

7. This one is also easy, I do not believe we must be perfect to enter heaven, If it were so none of us would enter heaven. The caveat is that we can all become perfect through the grace of Christ and no other way.

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As per Elder McConkie's famous speech the heretical beliefs are:

1. God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
2. Church members can harmonize evolution and doctrine.
3. Temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation.
4. The doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.
5. There is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds.
6. Adam is our father and our god, ... he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and ... he is the one we worship.
7. We must be perfect to gain salvation.

 

I know these have been discussed before.  Maybe time for a revisit?
So which do you agree with Elder McConkie should be considered heretical beliefs?  And which (if any) do you actually believe.
And for the most fun discussion - which are true but only if you explain the a certain way, otherwise they are false?

Personally, I am a big believer in #s 1, 3 (with qualification), 5 (with qualification), 6, and 7 (with qualification).
I would consider 2, and 4 to be false but there are many on the board who believe #2.

As Salgare put it earlier, I'm just a big old heretic...how about you?

 

I'll play along with a little clarification. 

I don't consider you to be a big ol heretic either - you seem quite faithful to teachings. 

1. Not so sure that Heavenly Father is progressing - to what? I consider Him to be omnipotent.

2. I believe evolution and scripture can be harmonized - which is a little different than saying evolution and doctrine can be.

3. Not assures no. One must be righteous. Ordinances are only gates on the path - they are not the tree of life.

4. As a doctrine, it has been in place since the NT statements of Peter.

5. Yes, if you choose to accept eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

6. Adam is our spiritual father on earth. In the sense that he stands in the stead of the Father as introducing the word and covenant into the world, we must honor him as he does hold important keys. "Worship" him no. Follow him yes.

7. Perfection is found in following Christ. Perfection in terms of cleanness from sin can be had by all.

[cinepro]

It should be noted that this was a talk given to students at BYU.  It wasn't in General Conference, and as far as I know was never published in any official Church publication.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_seven-deadly-heresies/

The first few paragraphs of the talk are especially interesting, because he lays out the premises for the heresies, such as:

 

Quote

 

—The doctrines of salvation are not discovered in a laboratory or on a geological field trip or by accompanying Darwin around the world. They come by revelation and in no other way.

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.

 

 

Also, he includes this explanation of how we can know whether or not they are "true":

Quote

Please note that knowledge is gained by obedience. It comes by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. In the ultimate and full sense it comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost. There are some things a sinful man does not and cannot know. The Lord’s people are promised: “By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5). But if they do not seek the Spirit, if they do not accept the revelations God has given, if they cannot distinguish between the revealed word and the theories of men, they have no promise of gaining a fullness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost.

As I've said before, I disagree with him about the likelihood of progression between the Kingdoms.  But I think he's probably correct about the rest as far as LDS doctrines are concerned.

Edited April 6, 2016 by cinepro

[hope_for_things]

I believe number 7 is a heresy because its an absolute, and because perfectionism is a horrible problem in our culture. 

For all of the above, I see many different opinions over time.  This is part of why I feel like the gospel is extremely flexible and can be almost anything you want to make of it.  

Nearly everything that BRM said in this talk and wrote in Mormon Doctrine is speculative interpretation, not important and impossible to prove conclusively.  

[HappyJackWagon]

I don't believe in the concept of heresy. I don't think there is any absolute earthly authority that could adequately explain the mind and will of God, therefore God allows a great level of variation while we try to figure things out.

 

[hope_for_things]

18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

—The doctrines of salvation are not discovered in a laboratory or on a geological field trip or by accompanying Darwin around the world. They come by revelation and in no other way.

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.

Sounds like I disagree with his starting premises, so no wonder I disagree with his conclusions.  I don't like the term doctrines of salvation as I don't think salvation is a doctrine in that sense.  Salvation is a gift, not a doctrine.  

The purpose of seeking spiritual truth is a process of learning through experiencing, and the gospel as I believe it is experienced primarily through the way we serve and love others.  The most effective way of helping others is not through studying a book or telepathy with God.  I don't rule out that people find value in prayer or meditation in moderation, but it sounds like BRM privileges a search for knowledge in a way that I find almost entirely without merit.  

It also seems like he's dismissing the scientific process which I find funny since he's personally benefited from it having lived his life in a scientific age.  I have to say that I really just don't get BRM and find his logic to be baffling.