Does this video by anthropologists say the Book of Mormon didn't happen?

[Jim Stiles]

3 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Was not aware that was the One Unforgivable Sin. 

I think a person could reasonably point to Joseph's scrying and gold-digging prior to his First Vision, join that to several others examples of lapses in character throughout his life, and build something of a case for a very flawed Founding Prophet in Joseph Smith.

Of course, Smith himself acknowledged her personal failings and foibles numerous times.

That, plus the repeated lifelong lapses of known heroes of the Bible should nuance this particular strategy of critique. And the LDS apologists here have seen the particular rabbit punch you tried to pull numerous times, as someone is likely going to remind you. 

Look, there's bad reasoning and there's paradigm dissonance. Some things which look insurmountable to we outside of Mormonism are nonissues for the believing LDS. Some things seem obvious to TBM's, and are off-putting if not outrageous to non-Mormons.

And apologetics, particularly "anti-cult" apologetics, against whomever directed, haven't really been developed much for 60 or so years. They tend to be the same attacks and counter-attacks over and again. They always go just so far and then the dialectical process just stymies. Only the naive, the unwary, and the already-disengaged take them seriously.

 

Dabbling in the occult is not the One Unforgivable Sin, but it does indicate character and truthfulness.  Evangelicals and secularists do not agree on much, but they do agree that the occult is a bunch of hogwash.  Water witches (rod men in the 19th century jargon) are the bane of hydrologists everywhere.  Some confidence men collect talismen and other trinkets to show their marks that they have special powers not available to the common man.

Some evangelical "anti-mormons" are careful and knowledgeable scholars of both official and traditional LDS belief and practice, and Richard Mouw did incredible harm to their efforts with his ignorant attacks on what they do.

I heard that he died with a so-called Jupiter Talisman on his person.  I really have not seen a list of what was on his person when he died.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

1. He forgot to put Samuel on the list.

1 Sam 15  [32] Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. [33] And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

So, what do we have here.  A man who was unarmed, a captive king.  he was begging for his life, and Samuel sliced and diced him -- otherwise known as murder.

2. And Peter, Matt 26 [51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.  Clearly he was trying to murder him.

BUT, you are correct. This was not dabbling in the occult, just M U R D E R

 

Samuel was doing what God told him to do the kings of the Canaanites.  Kill them.

Quote

Deuteronomy 7:23-24 But the Lord thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.

Peter was attempting to defend Jesus and his self.  His sin was not believing that Jesus was in charge in the situation, not attempted murder.

Quote

Acts 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

About dabbling in the occult:

Quote

Deuteronomy 18:9-11 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

 

[thesometimesaint]

So it is OK if I believe God told me to do it?

[flameburns623]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

Dabbling in the occult is not the One Unforgivable Sin, but it does indicate character and truthfulness.  Evangelicals and secularists do not agree on much, but they do agree that the occult is a bunch of hogwash.  Water witches (rod men in the 19th century jargon) are the bane of hydrologists everywhere.  Some confidence men collect talismen and other trinkets to show their marks that they have special powers not available to the common man.

Some evangelical "anti-mormons" are careful and knowledgeable scholars of both official and traditional LDS belief and practice, and Richard Mouw did incredible harm to their efforts with his ignorant attacks on what they do.

I heard that he died with a so-called Jupiter Talisman on his person.  I really have not seen a list of what was on his person when he died.

My wife is Wiccan and we have attended Sabbats together, so I feel as if I ought to recognize the amulet, but I don't.

Had never heard that Joseph Smith had one of those on his person. Somewhere on this forum there is likely to be aomeone who knows this claim and can discuss it.

I'll make popcorn.

 

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Peter was attempting to defend Jesus and his self.  

And exactly what was the "servant" doing.  Did he draw the sword, or was he simply standing by as the soldiers were attempting to arrest them.  Please show me where he was "defending" himself or Christ.  There is no indication at all that they had drawn swords, that the servant was slashing away at them with a sword. They were carrying out their orders, their LEGAL  responsibility, and Peter was guilty of attempted murder.  Give us the exact details of this confrontation. 
Peter's sin was to prevent a the soldiers from PEACEFULLY  arresting them by attempted MURDER.

About dabbling in the occult:

And Joseph Smith prayed to God to forgive him of his sins, and God forgave him.  

Tell us exactly why JS had the Jupiter talisman -- what if had been a rabbit's foot?  How deep is your hatred of this prophet called by God that you refuse to acknowledge that God Himself forgave him, even as Christ forgave Peter for his denial of Christ and his attempt to commit murder.
Revelation 12 [10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down [Satan] which accused them before our God day and night.

2 Nephi 33 [10] And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

[11] And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye -- for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by cdowis

[flameburns623]

A number of people have looked at the circumstances of Jesus' arrest and trial and argued it was unlawful from the outset.

http://livingtheway.org/jesustrial.html

Several books have covered the subject over the years.

In general it is thought that Peter was flailing away and the servant may have been collateral damage. Fishermen are not noted for their fencing skills.

Paul is a much better example of a murderer. Even admits, himaelf, that this is what he was as Saul of Tarsus.

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

A number of people have looked at the circumstances of Jesus' arrest and trial and argued it was unlawful from the outset.

Regardless, this would be handled as a legal issue, not decided by resisting the arresting officers by force.

In general it is thought that Peter was flailing away and the servant may have been collateral damage. Fishermen are not noted for their fencing skills.

As soon as he drew his sword, he was resisting arrest by force, and "flailing about" is still attempted murder when you consider that the sword could have inflicted a potentially fatal wound to the head.

Paul is a much better example of a murderer. Even admits, himaelf, that this is what he was as Saul of Tarsus.

Moses was a murderer as well.  But Stiles thinks he should advise God on whom should be chosen as a prophet.  He pretends to knowledge and authority that he does not possess.

The real issue is not whether you judge that JS was worthy of the calling as a prophet, but whether God, in fact, called him.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by cdowis

[flameburns623]

5 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

 

. . . .I heard that he died with a so-called Jupiter Talisman on his person.  I really have not seen a list of what was on his person when he died.

Fact-checkung by Google.

From the following FAIRMormon.org article:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Occultism_and_magic/Jupiter_talisman

Questions and Answers

Question: Did Joseph Smith have a Jupiter talisman on his person at the time of his death?

The only source of evidence that claims Joseph Smith had the Jupiter Talisman on his person is Charles Bidamon, made long after the death of Joseph and Emma

Did Joseph have this Talisman on him when he was murdered? What would it mean if he did?

This well circulated claim finds its origins in a 1974 talk by Dr. Reed Durham. Durham said that Joseph "evidently [had a Talisman] on his person when he was martyred. The talisman, originally purchased from the Emma Smith Bidamon family, fully notarized by that family to be authentic and to have belonged to Joseph Smith, can now be identified as a Jupiter talisman."[1]

There is only one source of evidence that claims Joseph Smith had the Jupiter Talisman on his person, and that source is Charles Bidamon. Bidamon's statement was made long after the death of Joseph and Emma, relied on memories from his youth, and was undergirded by financial motives.

The idea that Joseph Smith might have had a Jupiter Talisman in his possession is used by critics of the Church as proof of his fascination with the occult. As one work put it: "The fact that Smith owned a Jupiter talisman shows that his fascination with the occult was not just a childish fad. At the time of his death, Smith had on his person this talisman....[2]

By contrast, contemporary evidence demonstrates that Joseph did not have such a Talisman in his possession at his death.

Question: What is the source of the story about Joseph Smith possessing a Jupiter talisman?

The source of the Talisman story, upon which Dr. Durham based his remarks, was Wilford C. Wood, who was told it by Charles Bidamon, the son of Lewis Bidamon

Lewis was Emma Smith's non-Mormon second husband. Charles was born following an affair between Lewis Bidamon and Nancy Abercrombie, which occurred while Lewis was married to Emma. Charles was taken in by Emma when four years old, and raised by her until her death 11 years later.[3] (This action says much for Emma's charity.)

The talisman, or "silver pocket piece" as described in 1937, appeared on a list of items purportedly own by Joseph Smith which were to be sold by Charles Bidamon

Richard Lloyd Anderson wrote that the Talisman, or "silver pocket piece" as described in 1937, appeared on a list of items purportedly own by Joseph Smith which were to be sold by Charles Bidamon. One item listed was "a silver pocket piece which was in the Prophet's pocket at the time of his assassination."[4]:541 Wilford Wood, who collected Mormon memorabilia, purchased it in 1938 along with a document from Bidamon certifying that the Prophet possessed it when murdered. The affidavit sworn to by Charles Bidamon at the time of Wilford C. Wood's purchase was very specific:

This piece came to me through the relationship of my father, Major L. C. Bidamon, who married the Prophet Joseph Smith's widow, Emma Smith. I certify that I have many times heard her say, when being interviewed, and showing the piece, that it was in the Prophet's pocket when he was martyred at Carthage, Ill.[4]:558

Bidamon waited fifty-eight years after Emma’s death to make his certification, and notes that at the time of her death he was only fifteen years old.

Anderson noted that Bidamon waited fifty-eight years after Emma’s death to make his certification, and notes that at the time of her death he was only fifteen years old.

Durham based his comments on Wood's description for the item which was: "This piece [the Talisman] was in Joseph Smith's pocket when he was martyred at Carthage Jail."[4]:558[5] However, a list of the items in Joseph's possession at the time of his death was provided to Emma following the martyrdom. On this list there was no mention made of any Talisman-like item. If there had been such an article, it ought to have been listed.

The list of items in Joseph's possession at the time of his death did not list the talisman among them

In 1984, Anderson located and published the itemized list of the contents of Joseph Smith's pockets at his death. The list was originally published in 1885 in Iowa by James W. Woods, Smith's lawyer, who collected the prophet's personal effects after the Martyrdom. The contents from the published 1885 printing are as follows:

Received, Nauvoo, Illinois, July 2, 1844, of James W. Woods, one hundred and thirty- five dollars and fifty cents in gold and silver and receipt for shroud, one gold finger ring, one gold pen and pencil case, one penknife, one pair of tweezers, one silk and one leather purse, one small pocket wallet containing a note of John P. Green for $50, and a receipt of Heber C. Kimball for a note of hand on Ellen M. Saunders for one thousand dollars, as the property of Joseph Smith. - Emma Smith.[4]:558[6]

No Talisman or item like it is listed. It could not be mistaken for a coin or even a "Masonic Jewel" as Durham first thought. Anderson described the Talisman as being “an inch-and-a-half in diameter and covered with symbols and a prayer on one side and square of sixteen Hebrew characters on the other.”[4]:541 Significant is the fact that no associate of Joseph Smith has ever mentioned anything like this medallion. There are no interviews that ever record Emma mentioning any such item as attested to by Charles Bidamon, though he claimed she often spoke of it.

Question: Could the list of items on Joseph's person at the time of his death have been incomplete?

Bidamon's certification clearly states that the Talisman was "in the Prophet’s pocket when he was martyred"

More recent arguments contend that Wood’s list was exaggerated or was an all together different type of list. For example, some suggest that since neither Joseph's gun or hat were on the report, the list must not be complete. It should be obvious, however, that these items were not found on Joseph's person. The record clearly states that he dropped his gun and left it behind before being murdered. As for the hat, even if he had been wearing it indoors, it seems unlikely to have remained on his head after a gun-fight and fall from a second-story window.

Critics also argue that the Talisman was not accounted for was because it ought to have been worn around the neck, hidden from view and secret to all (including Emma no less). Thus, the argument runs, it was overlooked in the inventory. While it may be true that Talismans are worn around the neck, Bidamon's certification clearly states that the Talisman was "in the Prophet’s pocket when he was martyred." So which is it? In his pocket like a lucky charm or secretly worn around his neck as such an item should properly be used? In either case, the record is clear that he did not have a Talisman on his person at the time of his death. The rest is speculation.

The critics also resort to arguing that a prisoner could not possibly have had a penknife, so how accurate can the list of Joseph's possessions be? Obviously, the fact that he had a gun makes the possession of a knife a matter of no consequence.[7] Critics will dismiss contemporary evidence simply because it is inconvenient.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

I was going to send you a PM but you have blocked messages. Ah well. Again, be blessed!

Not blocked to my knowledge, I just sent you a test PM?

[Darren10]

10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

So it is OK if I believe God told me to do it?

It's always OK when God actually *does* tell you to do it. This is true no mattervwhat it is He told you to do.

[Jim Stiles]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

Moses was a murderer as well.  But Stiles thinks he should advise God on whom should be chosen as a prophet.  He pretends to knowledge and authority that he does not possess.

The real issue is not whether you judge that JS was worthy of the calling as a prophet, but whether God, in fact, called him.

Moses was guilty of manslaughter, not murder.

Quote

Exodus 2:11-12 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

Quote

Deuteronomy 19:1-4 When the Lord thy God hath cut off the nations, whose land the Lord thy God giveth thee, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their cities, and in their houses; Thou shalt separate three cities for thee in the midst of thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee to possess it. Thou shalt prepare thee a way, and divide the coasts of thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee to inherit, into three parts, that every slayer may flee thither. And this is the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past;

God did not call Joseph Smith Jr., an occultist, to be a prophet.  His prophesies of future events did not all come to pass.  His doctrine contradicted the doctrine of the Bible.

Quote

The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years. -- Joseph Smith Jr.

Quote

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Quote

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret… [Y]ou have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you… -- Joseph Smith Jr.

 

[Jim Stiles]

7 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Fact-checkung by Google.

From the following FAIRMormon.org article:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Occultism_and_magic/Jupiter_talisman

Questions and Answers

Question: Did Joseph Smith have a Jupiter talisman on his person at the time of his death?

The only source of evidence that claims Joseph Smith had the Jupiter Talisman on his person is Charles Bidamon, made long after the death of Joseph and Emma

Did Joseph have this Talisman on him when he was murdered? What would it mean if he did?

This well circulated claim finds its origins in a 1974 talk by Dr. Reed Durham. Durham said that Joseph "evidently [had a Talisman] on his person when he was martyred. The talisman, originally purchased from the Emma Smith Bidamon family, fully notarized by that family to be authentic and to have belonged to Joseph Smith, can now be identified as a Jupiter talisman."[1]

There is only one source of evidence that claims Joseph Smith had the Jupiter Talisman on his person, and that source is Charles Bidamon. Bidamon's statement was made long after the death of Joseph and Emma, relied on memories from his youth, and was undergirded by financial motives.

The idea that Joseph Smith might have had a Jupiter Talisman in his possession is used by critics of the Church as proof of his fascination with the occult. As one work put it: "The fact that Smith owned a Jupiter talisman shows that his fascination with the occult was not just a childish fad. At the time of his death, Smith had on his person this talisman....[2]

By contrast, contemporary evidence demonstrates that Joseph did not have such a Talisman in his possession at his death.

Question: What is the source of the story about Joseph Smith possessing a Jupiter talisman?

The source of the Talisman story, upon which Dr. Durham based his remarks, was Wilford C. Wood, who was told it by Charles Bidamon, the son of Lewis Bidamon

Lewis was Emma Smith's non-Mormon second husband. Charles was born following an affair between Lewis Bidamon and Nancy Abercrombie, which occurred while Lewis was married to Emma. Charles was taken in by Emma when four years old, and raised by her until her death 11 years later.[3] (This action says much for Emma's charity.)

The talisman, or "silver pocket piece" as described in 1937, appeared on a list of items purportedly own by Joseph Smith which were to be sold by Charles Bidamon

Richard Lloyd Anderson wrote that the Talisman, or "silver pocket piece" as described in 1937, appeared on a list of items purportedly own by Joseph Smith which were to be sold by Charles Bidamon. One item listed was "a silver pocket piece which was in the Prophet's pocket at the time of his assassination."[4]:541 Wilford Wood, who collected Mormon memorabilia, purchased it in 1938 along with a document from Bidamon certifying that the Prophet possessed it when murdered. The affidavit sworn to by Charles Bidamon at the time of Wilford C. Wood's purchase was very specific:

This piece came to me through the relationship of my father, Major L. C. Bidamon, who married the Prophet Joseph Smith's widow, Emma Smith. I certify that I have many times heard her say, when being interviewed, and showing the piece, that it was in the Prophet's pocket when he was martyred at Carthage, Ill.[4]:558

Bidamon waited fifty-eight years after Emma’s death to make his certification, and notes that at the time of her death he was only fifteen years old.

Anderson noted that Bidamon waited fifty-eight years after Emma’s death to make his certification, and notes that at the time of her death he was only fifteen years old.

Durham based his comments on Wood's description for the item which was: "This piece [the Talisman] was in Joseph Smith's pocket when he was martyred at Carthage Jail."[4]:558[5] However, a list of the items in Joseph's possession at the time of his death was provided to Emma following the martyrdom. On this list there was no mention made of any Talisman-like item. If there had been such an article, it ought to have been listed.

The list of items in Joseph's possession at the time of his death did not list the talisman among them

In 1984, Anderson located and published the itemized list of the contents of Joseph Smith's pockets at his death. The list was originally published in 1885 in Iowa by James W. Woods, Smith's lawyer, who collected the prophet's personal effects after the Martyrdom. The contents from the published 1885 printing are as follows:

Received, Nauvoo, Illinois, July 2, 1844, of James W. Woods, one hundred and thirty- five dollars and fifty cents in gold and silver and receipt for shroud, one gold finger ring, one gold pen and pencil case, one penknife, one pair of tweezers, one silk and one leather purse, one small pocket wallet containing a note of John P. Green for $50, and a receipt of Heber C. Kimball for a note of hand on Ellen M. Saunders for one thousand dollars, as the property of Joseph Smith. - Emma Smith.[4]:558[6]

No Talisman or item like it is listed. It could not be mistaken for a coin or even a "Masonic Jewel" as Durham first thought. Anderson described the Talisman as being “an inch-and-a-half in diameter and covered with symbols and a prayer on one side and square of sixteen Hebrew characters on the other.”[4]:541 Significant is the fact that no associate of Joseph Smith has ever mentioned anything like this medallion. There are no interviews that ever record Emma mentioning any such item as attested to by Charles Bidamon, though he claimed she often spoke of it.

Question: Could the list of items on Joseph's person at the time of his death have been incomplete?

Bidamon's certification clearly states that the Talisman was "in the Prophet’s pocket when he was martyred"

More recent arguments contend that Wood’s list was exaggerated or was an all together different type of list. For example, some suggest that since neither Joseph's gun or hat were on the report, the list must not be complete. It should be obvious, however, that these items were not found on Joseph's person. The record clearly states that he dropped his gun and left it behind before being murdered. As for the hat, even if he had been wearing it indoors, it seems unlikely to have remained on his head after a gun-fight and fall from a second-story window.

Critics also argue that the Talisman was not accounted for was because it ought to have been worn around the neck, hidden from view and secret to all (including Emma no less). Thus, the argument runs, it was overlooked in the inventory. While it may be true that Talismans are worn around the neck, Bidamon's certification clearly states that the Talisman was "in the Prophet’s pocket when he was martyred." So which is it? In his pocket like a lucky charm or secretly worn around his neck as such an item should properly be used? In either case, the record is clear that he did not have a Talisman on his person at the time of his death. The rest is speculation.

The critics also resort to arguing that a prisoner could not possibly have had a penknife, so how accurate can the list of Joseph's possessions be? Obviously, the fact that he had a gun makes the possession of a knife a matter of no consequence.[7] Critics will dismiss contemporary evidence simply because it is inconvenient.

These links may be useful:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560850892/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1560850892&linkCode=as2&tag=mormoreseamin-20

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/josephsmithjupitertalisman.html

 

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

God did not call Joseph Smith Jr., an occultist, to be a prophet.  His prophesies of future events did not all come to pass.  

Neither have John the Revelator's. His prophecy of the civil war beginning with S. Carolina did come to pass. The second one concerning the British who would go to other nations also came to pass in WW1, when the British went to other nations to ask for help and war was spread out among all nations.  Perhaps you are thinking of the one for the temple to be built in this generation. Jesus also said He would return in this generation... prophetically speaking referring to this generation of the earth.

Quote

His doctrine contradicted the doctrine of the Bible.

No, it doesn't. Just "Orthodox" interpretation of it. 

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

These links may be useful:

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/josephsmithjupitertalisman.html

 

No, that story is ridiculous. If Emma did have that medallion she would have given it to her son, Joseph Smith III - not to Bidamon. It would be interesting to see what Joseph Smith III had to say about it. Further, it was supposedly silver, not the bronze from the link. Further, when he was put in jail anything of value would have been taken from him - certainly a silver coin would have been taken. The story is an obvious anti-LDS fabrication cooked up years later.

[cdowis]

I seem to remember a news article many years ago where one of the descendants of Hyrum Smith gave the Jupiter talisman to the church.  I remember where he said that he was somewhat embarrassed because he did not know what the talisman meant.  Again, I can remember the content but not the source.

Edited March 11, 2016 by cdowis

[Jim Stiles]

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Neither have John the Revelator's. His prophecy of the civil war beginning with S. Carolina did come to pass. The second one concerning the British who would go to other nations also came to pass in WW1, when the British went to other nations to ask for help and war was spread out among all nations.  Perhaps you are thinking of the one for the temple to be built in this generation. Jesus also said He would return in this generation... prophetically speaking referring to this generation of the earth.

No, it doesn't. Just "Orthodox" interpretation of it. 

No, the prophecy about South Carolina did not come to pass.  The nullification crisis of 1832 did not lead to war.  The 1861 war between the states had nothing to do with the 1832 event.

Jesus did not say that he would return to the generation alive at his speaking.  He said that his kingdom would be founded.

The Mormon God is another God not found in the Bible.  Mormonism is a chasing after another God.

[USU78]

12 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

The 1861 war between the states had nothing to do with the 1832 event.

Or  ...  one might ask those not in Evangelical Anti-Mormon ministries what they think:

https://sites.google.com/site/politicalcausesofcivilwar/nullification-crisis

https://prezi.com/ggjf7gkww7cb/causes-of-the-civil-war-the-nullification-crisis/

http://www.ushistory.org/us/24c.asp

https://www.apstudynotes.org/us-history/topics/nullification-crisis-/

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080510094708AA7ZjBj

That's the top 5 (but 1, and that a Wiki) google hits on the search:  "nullification crisis civil war"

Where in the world do they get this stuff?

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Or  ...  one might ask those not in Evangelical Anti-Mormon ministries what they think:

https://sites.google.com/site/politicalcausesofcivilwar/nullification-crisis

https://prezi.com/ggjf7gkww7cb/causes-of-the-civil-war-the-nullification-crisis/

http://www.ushistory.org/us/24c.asp

https://www.apstudynotes.org/us-history/topics/nullification-crisis-/

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080510094708AA7ZjBj

That's the top 5 (but 1, and that a Wiki) google hits on the search:  "nullification crisis civil war"

Where in the world do they get this stuff?

It's fear of a word: "occult".

That fear in itself is superstition, as if symbols magically have any meaning beyond what they bring to remembrance.  These poor folks actually think that these things can hurt them because they have certain markings on them.  The interpretation of symbols is what matters, and symbols are everywhere.  With the same 26 symbols in the alphabet you can make messages of peace and love and messages of hatred.   They choose the latter.  These symbols as we know especially, I think,  also can be used to remember the words that God has revealed

And as far as your quotes, one must actually have the ability to reason in order to think this through.  Our friend has already "presupposed" the error of our ways, and has voluntarily surrendered his ability to reason,  so communication is hopeless I am afraid.

Edited March 11, 2016 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

25 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

No, the prophecy about South Carolina did not come to pass.  The nullification crisis of 1832 did not lead to war.  The 1861 war between the states had nothing to do with the 1832 event.

There is nothing in the prophecy about a nullification crisis. You are reading into it something which is not there:

D&C 87:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

As I recall SC led the secession of the south against the north just like the prophecy said.

Quote

Jesus did not say that he would return to the generation alive at his speaking.  He said that his kingdom would be founded.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 36 ¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

He is actually prophesying that "this generation" would not pass away until the branch put forth leaves, and other events occurred. 

Quote

The Mormon God is another God not found in the Bible.  Mormonism is a chasing after another God.

I would say that orthodoxy has created an image of God not found in scripture but thought up by men starting at Nicea. Last I checked the Bible God made man in His image, and not vice versa. Try getting anything like the Doctrines of the Trinity out of the Bible....that means without all the added words of interpretation etc.

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 Jesus also said He would return in this generation... prophetically speaking referring to this generation of the earth.

 

By his bizarre logic that would indicate that Jesus was a false prophet.

But of course that does not fit the presupposition.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

There is nothing in the prophecy about a nullification crisis. You are reading into it something which is not there:

D&C 87:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

As I recall SC led the secession of the south against the north just like the prophecy said.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 36 ¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

He is actually prophesying that "this generation" would not pass away until the branch put forth leaves, and other events occurred. 

I would say that orthodoxy has created an image of God not found in scripture but thought up by men starting at Nicea. Last I checked the Bible God made man in His image, and not vice versa. Try getting anything like the Doctrines of the Trinity out of the Bible....that means without all the added words of interpretation etc.

The United Kingdom did not join in the US Civil War.

Jesus did not give a date for his second advent.  His kingdom was initiated with the destruction of the Temple (the real one, not the fake ones) in 70 CE.

Quote

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Well, there goes the LDS church.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It's fear of a word: "occult".

That fear in itself is superstition, as if symbols magically have any meaning beyond what they bring to remembrance.  These poor folks actually think that these things can hurt them because they have certain markings on them.  The interpretation of symbols is what matters, and symbols are everywhere.  With the same 26 symbols in the alphabet you can make messages of peace and love and messages of hatred.   They choose the latter.  These symbols as we know especially, I think,  also can be used to remember the words that God has revealed

And as far as your quotes, one must actually have the ability to reason in order to think this through.  Our friend has already "presupposed" the error of our ways, and has voluntarily surrendered his ability to reason,  so communication is hopeless I am afraid.

It is the LDS Church generally and Joseph Smith Jr. specifically who believe in folk magic.  Seer stones and peep stones and Jupiter Talismans and water witches infect LDS history.

Quote

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Well that is how someone like Joseph Smith Jr. would have been treated in Ancient Israel.

[boblloyd91]

The D&C didn't state Great Britain would join the war, but that the Southern states would "call" on Great Britain. The south did open up diplomatic channels to see if Great Britain would help. 

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Or  ...  one might ask those not in Evangelical Anti-Mormon ministries what they think:

https://sites.google.com/site/politicalcausesofcivilwar/nullification-crisis

https://prezi.com/ggjf7gkww7cb/causes-of-the-civil-war-the-nullification-crisis/

http://www.ushistory.org/us/24c.asp

https://www.apstudynotes.org/us-history/topics/nullification-crisis-/

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080510094708AA7ZjBj

That's the top 5 (but 1, and that a Wiki) google hits on the search:  "nullification crisis civil war"

Where in the world do they get this stuff?

Nearly three decades separate the Nullification Crisis of 1832 and the US Civil War.  Smith read about the Nullification Crisis and then made his spurious prophecy about the crisis.

[boblloyd91]

7 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Nearly three decades separate the Nullification Crisis of 1832 and the US Civil War.  Smith read about the Nullification Crisis and then made his spurious prophecy about the crisis.

What evidence do you have that Smith deliberately made up a prophecy other then your supposed ability to read his mind?