Does this video by anthropologists say the Book of Mormon didn't happen?

[cdowis]

19 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

Like I said, there are places such as CARM where he may feel more at home and can more fully validate what I think he's trying to accomplish here

I think YOU would feel more comfortable if you were to put him on ignore mode.  He is a part of this forum and you just gotta live with it, or ignore him.  Do you need help for someone to show you how to use it?

This is off-topic, and time to get back on track.

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by cdowis

[Jim Stiles]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/87?lang=eng

Quote

D&C 87:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

I do not see verse 2 having been fulfilled by the US Civil War.  What say y'all?

[cdowis]

I already answered this question.   I already answered this question.  I already answered this question.  

I really don't like repeating myself. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by cdowis

[boblloyd91]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

I think YOU would feel more comfortable if you were to put him on ignore mode.  He is a part of this forum and you just gotta live with it, or ignore him.  Do you need help for someone to show you how to use it?

This is off-topic, and time to get back on track.

 

I wasn't saying that because he made me uncomfortable, just get the impression he's feeling frustrated talking to us. If I felt uncomfortable with him I wouldn't be responding to him

[Jim Stiles]

On 3/11/2016 at 0:32 PM, cdowis said:

I already answered this question.   I already answered this question.  I already answered this question.  

I really don't like repeating myself. 

No, you did not.  No other nations of the world joined in the US Civil War.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

No, you did not.  No other nations of the world joined in the US Civil War.

OK, no other nations of the world joined with the South during the US Civil War.  Germany, United Kingdom, France, Japan, Indonesia, Australia, Russia, Burma, China, Argentina, Brazil,  Austria, Mongolia, Sandwich Islands, Mexico  were not directly  involved in the US Civil War.

The other nations involved in the US Civil War is a null set.

Edited March 14, 2016 by cdowis

[flameburns623]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

No, you did not.  No other nations of the world joined in the US Civil War.

You're joking.

Please tell me you're joking.

A reasonable exegesis has been offered of the passage in question, outlining reasons why the text does not demand the interpretation you want to assign it.

If discussion on this is to move forward, you need to do more work to establish why cdowis has incorrectly exegeted the passage. 

I see why our LDS friends are growing frustrated.

Edited March 14, 2016 by flameburns623
Fragmented thought

[flameburns623]

On 3/11/2016 at 7:05 PM, cdowis said:

I have a habit of asking antiMormons to give us the EXACT quote, rather than their "summary" of what was said.  Now why is that?  Because they are incapable of telling the truth,  and they often change the meaning.

Let me help you with the quote

For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Now, sir, show me where it says that "the United Kingdom will join the Southern cause."  Otherwise it is either a matter that you made a typical antiMormon error (Ignorance), or that you deliberately wrote something that was not true.

I wanted to give the opportunity to respond.  Can we depend on your accuracy in the future, or must we waste alot of time checking up on you, or do we simply ignore your hysterical rants.

Note thw words "call upon" bolded. Not synonymous with the verb "to join".

Make a better case for your interpretation, Mr. Stiles.

[cdowis]

Jim Stiles,

To avoid confusion, this is why I ask for the exact quote, rather than an interpretative summary of what was said.  

So far, you have failed to give me that quote which, I believe, violates the rules of this forum.

[rodheadlee]

On 3/11/2016 at 4:58 PM, Jim Stiles said:

 

Just an FYI between 1861 and 1913 there were 27 wars in Europe alone. There was war on every single continent, too numerous to count. Google is your friend.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Jim Stiles,

To avoid confusion, this is why I ask for the exact quote, rather than an interpretative summary of what was said.  

So far, you have failed to give me that quote which, I believe, violates the rules of this forum.

Was this what you are talking about?

D&C 87:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

[Jim Stiles]

On 3/11/2016 at 8:05 PM, cdowis said:

I have a habit of asking antiMormons to give us the EXACT quote, rather than their "summary" of what was said.  Now why is that?  Because they are incapable of telling the truth,  and they often change the meaning.

Let me help you with the quote

For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Now, sir, show me where it says that "the United Kingdom will join the Southern cause."  Otherwise it is either a matter that you made a typical antiMormon error (Ignorance), or that you deliberately wrote something that was not true.

I wanted to give the opportunity to respond.  Can we depend on your accuracy in the future, or must we waste alot of time checking up on you, or do we simply ignore your hysterical rants.

Is this what you are talking about?  See bolded.

[Jim Stiles]

55 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Just an FYI between 1861 and 1913 there were 27 wars in Europe alone. There was war on every single continent, too numerous to count. Google is your friend.

How many of those wars were the consequence of the US Civil War or the 1832 Nullification Crisis?

[Jim Stiles]

2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

You're joking.

Please tell me you're joking.

A reasonable exegesis has been offered of the passage in question, outlining reasons why the text does not demand the interpretation you want to assign it.

If discussion on this is to move forward, you need to do more work to establish why cdowis has incorrectly exegeted the passage. 

I see why our LDS friends are growing frustrated.

The verse in question is D&C 87:2.

Quote

D&C 87: 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

War simply was not poured out more upon all nations after 1861 than before 1861.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Jim Stiles

[cdowis]

You are not aware of the Great War, or WW1. 

You win, I see nothing for us to discuss.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

You are not aware of the Great War, or WW1. 

You win, I see nothing for us to discuss.

Yep

Been there done that. Join the club

Hiroshima Nagasaki. WW2 Vietnam Korea and the present wars do not count at all/

Whats a few million here and there.  He is blinded by presuppositions 

Edited March 14, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Jim Stiles]

4 hours ago, cdowis said:

You are not aware of the Great War, or WW1. 

You win, I see nothing for us to discuss.

The US Civil War did not lead to World War I.  The Mexican War. which was not mentioned by the prophecy, was more related to World War I than the US Civil War.

The only relationship between the US Civil War and the Spanish-American War was that some people from the North believed that the South would not participate in the war with Spain.  They were wrong; the South did participate in the war with Spain.

[cdowis]

5 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

The US Civil War did not lead to World War I.  

 

D&C 87 

 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

Now you are correct that specific events in the American war did not directly lead to WW1, but that is not what the prophecy actually says.  This prophecy was fulfilled as it was written.  While we can agree that it perhaps implies some sort of a relationship, it does not say there is a causal relationship.

 Read my previous post on my opinion on this relationship.   Basically, that the technology developed in the Civil War made such a world-wide war possible.

Edited March 14, 2016 by cdowis

[stemelbow]

I guess the question is has every nation faced war since the beginning of the US Civil War?  It might be a stretch to call some conflicts or situations war, but it might be close.  But to be fair the verse does make it seem like the wars poured out upon every nation will be precipitated by the US Civil War, another stretch.  THis feels lose lose for the LDS apologist side.  We're better off saying in terms of precision the prophecy has failed, but that's ok, because nearly every prophecy ever recorded has failed when you view it with precision.  It may be one of the less useful prophecies.   

[cdowis]

Only if you ignore what the prophecy actually says.

[flameburns623]

Mr. Stiles: have you ever seen how Jewish apologists take apart the OT scriptures which Christians cite as fulfilled by Jesus? There is much the same back-and-forth over context, particular details, and generalities. Christians often walk away convinced that their Jewish counterparts truly are hard-headed, even hard-hearted. The Jewish side apparently feel the Christians willfully blind and ignorant.

I would commend to you LDS reources but I think you've made it clear: you are predisposed not to dialogue but to goad and to scoff. I don't think you much care even to convince nor are prepared to be convinced.

I think I will just leave you here to stew in your anti-Mormon presuppositions.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

D&C 87 

 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

Now you are correct that specific events in the American war did not directly lead to WW1, but that is not what the prophecy actually says.  This prophecy was fulfilled as it was written.  While we can agree that it perhaps implies some sort of a relationship, it does not say there is a causal relationship.

 Read my previous post on my opinion on this relationship.   Basically, that the technology developed in the Civil War made such a world-wide war possible.

No, world-wide war was technologically possible in the middle of the 18th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years%27_War

Quote

The Seven Years' War was fought between 1755 and 1764, the main conflict occurring in the seven-year period from 1756 to 1763. It involved every great power of the time except the Ottoman Empire, and affected Europe, North America, Central America, West Africa, India, and the Philippines. Considered as the greatest European war since the Thirty Years War of the 17th century, it once again split Europe into two coalitions, led by Great Britain and France, respectively. For the first time, aiming to curtail Britain and Prussia's ever-growing power, France formed a grand coalition of its own.

According to Wikipedia, there were about the same number of wars in the 19th century before the US Civil War as wars during or afterward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1800%E2%80%9399

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Only if you ignore what the prophecy actually says.

You can and I don't doubt that Jim Stiles is doing that some.  But one could read the prophecy in the Doctrine and Covenants and easily conclude that's not exactly how it happened.  It simply isn't.  The prophecy is not precise.  I don't think any recorded prophecies can seriously be said to carry precision when it comes to the actual events. 

[Jim Stiles]

24 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Mr. Stiles: have you ever seen how Jewish apologists take apart the OT scriptures which Christians cite as fulfilled by Jesus? There is much the same back-and-forth over context, particular details, and generalities. Christians often walk away convinced that their Jewish counterparts truly are hard-headed, even hard-hearted. The Jewish side apparently feel the Christians willfully blind and ignorant.

I would commend to you LDS reources but I think you've made it clear: you are predisposed not to dialogue but to goad and to scoff. I don't think you much care even to convince nor are prepared to be convinced.

I think I will just leave you here to stew in your anti-Mormon presuppositions.

Yeah, back in the AOL days they would stick everybody who wanted to argue/discuss about religion in one general area, so I remember some of the back and forth among Jews and Christians.

I am actually on my best behavior.  You should see how I treat Cultural Marxists.

[cdowis]

43 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

No, world-wide war was technologically possible in the middle of the 18th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years%27_War

You did not read my previous post, did you.  This wiki article spoke only about the political situation, alliances, etc and said nothing about what was in my post on the technology.  Anyway, I think we will just agree to disagree, and I have no interest in continuing this discussion.  

I give you the last word.

Edited March 14, 2016 by cdowis