How did early LDS understand D&C 84: 4-5?

[Bernard Gui]

And Brother Brigham...

Quote

You and I are gathered here expressly to prepare for that day; we could not enjoy it now, but our duty is to prepare ourselves in enjoy the glory that the Lord has in store for the faithful. We are going to try and save ourselves, and when we come to understanding we will then be counted worthy to possess Zion, even the Center Stake of Zion. It is true this is Zion—North and South America are Zion, and the land where the Lord commenced His work; and where He commenced He will finish. This is the land of Zion; but we are not yet prepared to go and establish the Center Stake of Zion. The Lord tried this in the first place. He called the people together to the place where the New Jerusalem and the great temple will be built,  and where He will prepare for the City of Enoch. And He gave revelation after revelation; but the people could not abide them, and the Church was scattered and peeled, and the people hunted from place to place till, finally, they were driven into the mountains, and here we are. Now, it is for you and me to prepare to return back again; not to our fatherland, in many cases, but to return east, and by-and-by to build up the Center Stake of Zion. We are not prepared to do this now, but we are here to learn until we are of one heart and of one mind in the things of this life. Do all the Latter-day Saints arrive at this? No; they have not, our former experience has proved this. Of the great many who have been baptized into this Church, but few have been able to abide the word of the Lord; they have fallen out on the right and on the left, and have foundered by the way, and a few have gathered together. Will these be prepared to enter the celestial kingdom? Some of them will be, and will become kings and priests; but not all of these, only a portion of them. They do not know what to do with the revelations, commandments, and blessings of God. Talking, for instance, about everyday things, how many do we see here that know what to do with money and property when they get it? Are their eyes single to the building up of the kingdom of God? No; they are single to the building up of themselves. With all the knowledge that Elders have obtained who have traveled in the Church five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, or thirty years, there are few who understand the principles of the kingdom and whose eyes are single to the building of it up in all respects; but their eyes are like the fool's eye—looking to the ends of the earth. They want this and that, and they do not know what to do; they lack wisdom. By-and-by, perhaps, their wealth will depart from them, and when left poor and penniless, they will humble themselves before the Lord that they may be saved. 

This is the situation of the Latter-day Saints, yet they are increasing. It is astonishing to look back and see the ignorance that was manifested by the people in their first gathering together; their experience then was far less than their experience and doings now. Still we are far short of being what we should and must be.

 

JD 11:324-325

 

[Bernard Gui]

And this from Erastus Snow (the whole discourse discusses this topic and is well worth reading)...

Quote

The work before us is a great one, and very much remaineth to be accomplished according to the prophecies—Israel is to be gathered, Jerusalem rebuilt, Zion established, the vineyard of the Lord pruned and the corrupt branches cut off and cast into the fire, while the good branches shall be grafted in and partake of the root and fatness of the tame olive tree. There is a great work to be accomplished in the earth. But the Lord has said by the mouth of His servants that He will cut His work short in righteousness in building up His Kingdom in the latter days. True, when the Lord speaketh He does not reckon time as we do. The time was, in the infancy of this Church, when our minds were so narrow compared to what they are now, that we looked for the speedy coming of our Lord, and the accomplishment of His great work before this time. But as our minds grew, and our ideas enlarged, we began to perceive that we were only children in our views and feelings, our ideas and expectations. We had the views, ideas and expectations of children; and we see how the Lord has enlarged Israel and expanded His work; and now we behold so much more to be accomplished than what has been accomplished, that we are apt in our minds to put off the day of the Lord a great way. The time was that we looked for one temple. The early revelations given to the Latter-day Saints predicted a temple in Zion, and Zion in our minds at that time was a little place on the Missouri River in Jackson County, Western Missouri—a town and a few surrounding villages, or a country, peradventure it may be as large as a county. When we first heard the fullness of the Gospel preached by the first Elders, and read the revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith, our ideas of Zion were very limited. But as our minds began to grow and expand, why we began to look upon Zion as a great people, and the Stakes of Zion as numerous, and the area of the country to be inhabited by the people of Zion as this great American continent, or at least such portions of it as the Lord should consecrate for the gathering of His people. We ceased to set bounds to Zion and her Stakes. We began also to cease to think about a single temple in one certain place. Seeing the different Stakes of Zion that were being organized we perceived the idea, possibly, of as many temples. Having had one spot pointed out in the revelations for the temple in Jackson County, our minds expanded so that in a short time we were building another temple in a Stake of Zion in Kirtland, Ohio. A little while afterwards we were laying the foundation of a temple in Far West, Missouri, and driven before our enemies; from that place we next laid the foundation and built up a temple unto the Lord in Nauvoo. When we located in the mountains and laid the foundation of a temple in Salt Lake City, who of us had an idea that before it should be completed we would be administering in a temple in St. George, and another in Logan, and another in Manti, and who conceives the idea today, that by the time these are completed and the Saints have officiated in them, we will be scattered over the American continent, building temples in a hundred other places? All this comes within the range of possibility, nay, probability, almost amounting to certainty. One of my brethren behind me here, who understands these things, and who can speak knowingly in regard to them, says, that we may put it down as a certainty, that by and by, there will be hundreds of these temples throughout the land. Our minds are beginning to comprehend the object and purpose of the temples of our God. We realize that they are places where the Lord bestows the keys of life and salvation pertaining to the everlasting Priesthood, and opens the door of redemption and salvation unto our dead. We begin to comprehend a little of the vision shown to Ezekiel, as recorded in the 37th chapter of his book. Ezekiel, while under the influence of the Spirit of the Lord, was set down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones. He explored the valley, saw there were very many bones, and, lo, they were very dry. The Lord commanded him to prophesy concerning them, and he prophesied, saying: “O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. * * * And the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.” Now, these were not the prophets and saints and righteous dead who had been partakers of the blessings of the Gospel and of the Priesthood, while in the flesh, but were those who had passed off in a day of darkness, and in their lost condition said to one another, and said in their hearts, “Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.” But lo! the plan of salvation for the dead is revealed. The scheme which the Father had provided for the redemption of those whose hope was lost, and who were cut off is revealed unto their children, unto those who have been gathered from their long dispersion, and who have received the keys of the Holy Priesthood, which bringeth life and salvation to the dead as well as to the living. Having these keys committed unto us, we proceed to establish Zion; to build up her Stakes; to build her temples; to gather together those who purify themselves before the Lord, and qualify and fit themselves to become saviors upon Mount Zion, by entering into holy places and officiating for themselves and their dead, thus laying the foundation for the redemption of the dead in being baptized for them, in being ordained for them, in being blessed and endowed for them, in receiving the keys and the key words for them, that in the day when the Elders who have passed behind the veil shall preach to them the Gospel of glad tidings of great joy, lo and behold! they will receive it and will be put in possession of those keys, endowments and blessings, whereby they may be freed from their prison houses, and be raised from the dead, and stand upon their feet an exceeding great army,  and be restored to the blessings which God promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and their seed after them. 

Now, this is the work before us, and I want to ask my brethren, the Elders of Israel, how long shall we be in accomplishing this work? Can I tell you? No, it is not given me to know. It is sufficient for us to know that the time has come for the work to be done: that the Lord has turned the key and opened the door; that it is an effectual door which no man can shut the door of life and salvation. Hence it is our duty to step forward and magnify the calling whereunto God has called us. Send out the young men of Israel; send out the middle aged; send out those who have not as yet cleared their garments of the blood of this generation to call the children of men to repentance, and to see how many will engage with us in this great work of salvation, and become saviors upon Mount Zion. But this preaching the Gospel to the outside world is a small part of the work. It is but the ABC of the lesson to be learned and the work to be accomplished. How long, I ask, shall we be in accomplishing this work? It is not, as I have said, given to me to know; but I can tell you in general terms. As long as there is one soul (of all the sons and daughters of Adam that have been born on this earth) that has not had an opportunity of receiving and obeying the Gospel; as long as there is one soul that is in a condition to be saved and that can be reached by this plan of salvation, so long will the Latter-day Saints be engaged in this work.

JD 25:30-32

 

Edited February 6, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Zakuska]

On 1/29/2016 at 10:52 AM, JLHPROF said:

D&C 84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

No idea how the early saints viewed it.  They probably viewed it literally until they started dying off.  You would have to research early commentary on D&C 84 to find out.
I would imagine they viewed it the same way as the early Christians viewed Matthew 24/Luke 21.

Not sure why it matters since generation can mean many things.

I think the key to understanding this is verse 5. That generation did not pass before 7 temples (houses of God) were built to the Lord.

Kirtland

Nauvoo

Salt lake

Ogden

Provo

Manti

St George

Yes that does not include the Missouri temple. So the status is...

Verse 4 failed while verse 5 was fulfilled 6 x's over.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Zakuska

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Zakuska said:

I think the key to understanding this is verse 5. That generation did not pass before 7 temples (houses of God) were built to the Lord.

Kirtland

Nauvoo

Salt lake

Ogden

Provo

Manti

St George

Yes that does not include the Missouri temple. So the status is...

Verse 4 failed while verse 5 was fulfilled 6 x's over.

Verse 5 also reminds me of the Kirtland dedication time:

"George A. Smith arose and began to prophesy, when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the Temple, and all the congregation simultaneously arose, being moved upon by an invisible power; many began to speak in tongues and prophesy; others saw glorious visions; and I beheld the Temple was filled with angels, which fact I declared to the congregation. The people of the neighborhood came running together (hearing an unusual sound within, and seeing a bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the Temple), and were astonished at what was taking place." (History of the Church, 2:428.)

"Sunday, the 27th attended on the dedication of the Lord's house. For the particulars of this great event see my account written by myself, and printed in the March No. of The Messenger and Advocate, signed C. In the evening I met with the officers of the church in the Lord's house. The Spirit was poured out--I saw the glory of God, like a great cloud, come down and rest upon the house, and fill the same like a mighty rushing wind. I also saw cloven tongues, like as of fire rest upon many, (for there were 316 present,) while they spake with other tongues and prophesied."

Reference: Leonard J. Arrington, "Oliver Cowdery's Kirtland Ohio 'Sketch Book,'" BYU Studies, Volume 12, (Summer 1972), 426.

[Zakuska]

You know what... now that I read section 84 heading again verse 4 could be read as refering to the Kirtland temple as well.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Zakuska said:

I think the key to understanding this is verse 5. That generation did not pass before 7 temples (houses of God) were built to the Lord.

Kirtland

Nauvoo

Salt lake

Ogden

Provo

Manti

St George

Yes that does not include the Missouri temple. So the status is...

Verse 4 failed while verse 5 was fulfilled 6 x's over.

Good point on verse 5.

Read Elder Snow's speech quoted above to better understand verse 4, if it is convenient.

 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[theplains]

On 06/02/2016 at 0:33 PM, JLHPROF said:

First reference -Prophetic Sayings of Heber C. Kimball to Sister Amanda H. Wilcox, p. 6.

• It seems to have originated in a conversation between Heber C. Kimball and Amanda H. Wilcox in Salt Lake City in May 1868. She reports him as saying, “The western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, ‘There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.’”

Secondary reference - George, Elizabeth and Carn Burkett letter December 18, 1870

• Do not be in a hurry of going to Jackson County for the land has to be cleared and the power of God to rest upon it before we think of returning there.  I heard Joseph Smith say in my house when in Clay County that when we returned there there would not be a dog to wag his tail or move his tongue against us, none but the pure in heart will go up there and the Lord will prepare his people. They shall be clear as the sun, fair as the moon and terrible valiant as an army with banners these are virgins, the hundred and forty and four thousand that shall stand on Mount Zion, these are the bride the Lamb's wife.

Are those revelations from God?

I saw your first quote from the book "The Coming of the Lord".

Thanks, Jim

[Ahab]

On 1/29/2016 at 1:15 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

Did early LDS see it as just a commandment? If they expected a temple in their life time, then why did God give them that revelation? What is the point of having scriptures or prophecies that LDSaints misunderstand? Is there any evidence that someone didn't expect that temple in their life time?  Same in the Bible, what is the point of having so many mysterious scriptures?  

Sincere question

Its D&C 84: 4-5

 

 

 

 

Read the heading of that section to see where that revelation was given. A temple was built there and all the keys and power we have now were given to the Church there.  Independence Missouri was another place where the Lord wanted the Church to build a temple but the first temple in this dispensation was in Kirtland Ohio, with the building of temples in this dispensation beginning in that place, referred to as this place in that revelation. 

[Chuck]

On 2/6/2016 at 11:34 AM, JLHPROF said:

Prophecy is not a guarantee or a crystal ball.
Men's agency can cause any prophecy to fail or be adjusted.
That's not an excuse, just common sense.  Prophecy doesn't remove agency.

Deuteronomy.18:22

22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

Allowing the widest possible latitude of 100 years for a generation, that still leaves the prophecy unfulfilled more than 70 years late and counting. There still is no temple in Independence, Missouri.

he defiantly was a FALSE PROPHET.

 

 

 

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Deuteronomy.18:22

22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

Allowing the widest possible latitude of 100 years for a generation, that still leaves the prophecy unfulfilled more than 70 years late and counting. There still is no temple in Independence, Missouri.

he defiantly was a FALSE PROPHET.

Read the post before this post of yours, Chuck.

You are missing something, Chuck.

And it was in the post before you wrote this post, Chuck.

 

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Deuteronomy.18:22

22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

Allowing the widest possible latitude of 100 years for a generation, that still leaves the prophecy unfulfilled more than 70 years late and counting. There still is no temple in Independence, Missouri.

he defiantly was a FALSE PROPHET.

 

 

 

Nonsense.
I'll say it again, prophecy is not a crystal ball and generation can have many meanings.
Maybe read the entire thread before making such claims.

 

[clarkgoble]

My copy is in storage so I can't look it up but Grant Underwood talks about this at length in The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism  Here's a link to a bit Google Books has up

https://books.google.com/books?id=qkw3ZPP6Ui0C&q=D%26C+84#v=snippet&q=generation&f=false

While the saints of the era took it as a prophecy, as Underwood notes, typically one should read it in conjunction with D&C 124:49-51 and D&C 105:1-9. This reading says that because the Saints didn't do what God commanded. "Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion" (9) Also

 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings. And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God. Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God. (D&C 124:49-51)

So quite early it was seen as tied to commandment and then delayed.

Edited April 6, 2017 by clarkgoble

[mrmarklin]

On 1/29/2016 at 1:15 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

Did early LDS see it as just a commandment? If they expected a temple in their life time, then why did God give them that revelation? What is the point of having scriptures or prophecies that LDSaints misunderstand? Is there any evidence that someone didn't expect that temple in their life time?  Same in the Bible, what is the point of having so many mysterious scriptures?  

Sincere question

Its D&C 84: 4-5

 

 

 

 

Google the Church of the Temple Lot. These people are an offshoot of LDS who currently own the temple lot purchased by the Saints in Jackson county MO. 

A cornerstone  was laid during Joseph Smiths lifetime, but the Curch lost control of the property.

This revelation was taken very seriously at the time. Many believe the fulfillment of the New Jerusalem was imminent, but so far, not yet!

Edited April 6, 2017 by mrmarklin