When we differ with the united voice of the Brethren

[Scott Lloyd]

Here's a timely blog post by Greg Smith that has just gone up on the FairMormon web site. It is titled "What Should I Do If I Think I've Received Revelation Different from Apostles and Prophets."

This matter has come up implicitly or explicitly in the "Policy on Same Sex Couples Was Revelation from God" thread. Also in the "How Can Anyone Stand without Revelation" thread. 

Greg Smith has given it a thoughtful treatment with six points worth considering. And some appropriate quotes from Church leaders, including Marion G. Romney:

 

Quote

 

Some members assume that one can be in full harmony with the spirit of the gospel, enjoy full fellowship in the Church, and at the same time be out of harmony with the leaders of the Church and the counsel and direction they give. Such a position is wholly inconsistent. . . . Those who profess to accept the gospel and who at the same time criticize and refuse to follow the counsel of the prophets are assuming an indefensible position. Such a spirit leads to apostasy.[3]

President Romney also said:

If we are to be on the side of truth, we must have the Spirit of the Lord. To the obtaining of that spirit, prayer is an indispensable prerequisite. Praying will keep one’s vision clear on this question of loyalty as on all other questions. By praying I do not mean, however, just saying prayers. Prayers may be said in a perfunctory manner. Access to the Spirit of God, which is a directing power, cannot be so obtained. The divine injunction to pray is not to be satisfied in a casual manner nor by an effort to obtain divine approval of a predetermined course. A firm resolve to comply with the will of God must accompany the petition for knowledge as to what His will is. When one brings himself to the position that he will pursue the truth wherever it may lead, even though it may require a reversal of his former position, he can, without hypocrisy, go before the Lord in prayer. Then, when he prays with all the energy of his soul, he is entitled to and he will receive guidance. The mind and will of the Lord as to the course he should take will be made known unto him.

I assure you, however, that the spirit of the Lord will never direct a person to take a position in opposition to the counsel of the Presidency of His Church. Such could not be….[4]

There is a very important point here—President Romney describes the necessity of being willing to be changed. This is really an act of consecration—of putting something we dearly love and value on the altar (our political convictions, our moral convictions, our deeply considered views, our social comfort, or the fact that we are going to be required to do a complete about-face on our views).

Only when we get to genuinely being willing to do this can we hope for the blessing. Faith precedes the miracle.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

Forgot to include the link. I've now added it above.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[VideoGameJunkie]

It's true. The most important trait about the church is obedience. 

[Nevo]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here's a timely blog post by Greg Smith that has just gone up on the FairMormon web site. It is titled "What Should I Do If I Think I've Received Revelation Different from Apostles and Prophets."

This matter has come up implicitly or explicitly in the "Policy on Same Sex Couples Was Revelation from God" thread. Also in the "How Can Anyone Stand without Revelation" thread. 

Greg Smith has given it a thoughtful treatment with six points worth considering. And some appropriate quotes from Church leaders, including Marion G. Romney:

I've found some more good quotes:

• "Will He [God] suffer His mouthpiece to go into error? No. He would remove him and place another there. Bro. Brigham may err in the price of a horse, or a House and lot, [but] in the revelations from God, where is the man that has given thus saith the Lord when it was not so? I cannot find one instance. . . . The Lord will not suffer Brigham to introduce incorrect doctrine, and he escape[. B]ut He has honored him. Then who are we to condemn another man's servant? If we have the spirit of submission, if we have the Spirit of God, it will not be so. [W]e have seen too much, and felt too much to oppose the ruling power." (Orson Hyde)
   
• "The remarks of bro. Hyde are dictated by the spirit of wisdom, and the spirit of the Lord. . . . we have either to say that we are the leaders of the church, or to yield to the leader[. I]t is natural [that] the Lord will reveal His doctrine to his mouthpiece; for the interest of our wives and children, we should submit." (Wilford Woodruff)
   
• "When bro. Brigham tells me a thing, I receive it as revelation. Some things may be apparently contradictory, but are not really contradictory." (John Taylor)
   
• "If Brigham Young is the President of the Church, he is an inspired man. If we have not an inspired man, then Orson Pratt is right. . . . The only thing is for bro. Pratt to get a revelation that bro. B. Young is a prophet of God." (George A. Smith)
   
• "I don't think any light can come to Bro. Pratt, while he resists it." (Erastus Snow)
   
• "[A]s our leaders are inspired to talk, they are inspired oracles, and we should be as limber as a dish cloth[.]" (Wilford Woodruff)
   

— Orson Pratt's fellow apostles trying to convince him to get on board with Brigham Young's Adam-God teaching, from a 5 April 1860 meeting of the Twelve (see Gary James Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002],191–199).

Edited January 12, 2016 by Nevo

[JLHPROF]

I've always liked this one -it's helped me when I've questioned the GA's:

• “Though I admitted in my feelings and knew all the time that Joseph was a human being and subject to err, still it was none my business to look after his faults  I repented of my unbelief, and that too, very suddenly; I repented about as quickly as I committed the error.  It was not for me to question whether Joseph was dictated by the Lord at all times and under all circumstances or not. I never had the feeling for one moment, to believe that any man or set of men or beings upon the face of the whole earth had anything to do with him, for he was superior to them all, and held the keys of salvation.
  
  Had I not thoroughly understood this and believed it, I much doubt whether I should ever have embraced what is called “Mormonism.”  He was called of God; God dictated him, and if He had a mind to leave him to himself and let him commit an error, that was no business of mine. And it was not for me to question it, if the Lord was disposed to let Joseph lead the people astray, for He had called him and instructed him to gather Israel and restore the Priesthood and kingdom to them.  It was not my prerogative to call him in question with regard to any act of his life.  
  
  He was God’s servant, not mine. He did not belong to the people but to the Lord, and was doing the work of the Lord, and if He should suffer him to lead people astray, it would be because they ought to be led astray.  If He should suffer them to be chastised, and some of them destroyed, it would be because they deserved it, or to accomplish some righteous purpose.
  
  That was my faith, and it is my faith still.  If we have any lack of confidence in those whom the Lord has appointed to lead the people, how can we have confidence in a being whom we know nothing about? It is nonsense to talk about it.  It will weaken a person quicker to lose confidence in those who dictate the affairs of God’s Kingdom on the earth than to say “I do not know whether there is a God or not, and I care nothing about Him.” A man or woman will not be prepared to be taken by the enemy, and led captive by the devil so quickly for disbelieving in a being they do not know about, as for disbelieving in those whom they do know.”
  
  Brigham Young - JD 4:297-98

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

It's true. The most important trait about the church is obedience. 

Possibly, but mostly it is part of repentance that comes out of faith, the first two principles of the gospel. To repent you have to realize your error and obey.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, Nevo said:

 

— Orson Pratt's fellow apostles trying to convince him to get on board with Brigham Young's Adam-God teaching, from a 5 April 1860 meeting of the Twelve (see Gary James Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002],191–199).

Well, if they were "trying to convince him to get on board" with it, it could hardly be said that the entire body was united in it, right?

How did the others feel about it, the ones you don't quote here?

Edited January 12, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, Nevo said:

 

— Orson Pratt's fellow apostles trying to convince him to get on board with Brigham Young's Adam-God teaching, from a 5 April 1860 meeting of the Twelve (see Gary James Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002],191–199).

Loved that book.
Anyone who thinks Adam-God was just one of Brigham's whims should give it a read and see which other apostles agreed with his ideas.
It also contains some of the best apostolic teachings against McConkie's silly "heresy" concerning a progressing God.

Edited January 12, 2016 by JLHPROF

[canard78]

Scott, you referred me to this thread from the other one about revelation.

This doesn't address the issue.

If the 15 are basing revelation on "strongly held opinion" then they are no more a source of revelation when united in that opinion than when they express it individually. 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, canard78 said:

Scott, you referred me to this thread from the other one about revelation.

This doesn't address the issue.

If the 15 are basing revelation on "strongly held opinion" then they are no more a source of revelation when united in that opinion than when they express it individually. 

I guess it boils down to a matter of trust, canard78.

I believe it to be well-placed and well-considered trust.

Also, I cannot join you in dismissing the united voice so lightly. The council system is in place to preclude any one man (ore even two or three of them) from taking the Church off into the weeds.

 

[Gray]

If people can't trust their discernment of the spirit on this issue, then they certainly can't trust the spirit to locate others to outsource that discernment to. Either the spirit is a reliable guide or it is not - the church needs to figure out what its position really is on that.

[Anijen]

There are many voices we can lean to for understanding, guidance, and revelation for our own selves and our families. It does not have to come from only one source.

• Scriptures (including the ensign etc.)
• Prayer
• Prophets and Apostles
• common sense (spidey senses included)
• being obedient to laws, both of the land and of God.
• Promptings from the Holy Ghost

And of course you can receive validation from the Holy Ghost. I have never been led astray using any of these methods nor in any of my personal experiences have they contradicted one another. The most controversy I have ever encountered is that sometimes the revelation comes before the policy is administered. For example those I have known whom have come back from serious transgression had known by personal revelation from the Holy Ghost that they were forgiven and considered now worthy. This experience happened before the church administrative part (perhaps their ward and stake leaders felt that confirmation as well, but they still had to go through the process), they could not partake of the sacrament even though they have felt that forgiveness until the church process caught up with them (when I write church process, I mean the things the ward/stake leaders need to do, i.e. The Stake President gets the news from the First Presidency that John Doe is cleared to be re-baptized. John Doe has had in his heart the confirmation that he is now worthy to be re-baptized, but has to wait for the actual process to catch up)

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here's a timely blog post by Greg Smith that has just gone up on the FairMormon web site. It is titled "What Should I Do If I Think I've Received Revelation Different from Apostles and Prophets."

This matter has come up implicitly or explicitly in the "Policy on Same Sex Couples Was Revelation from God" thread. Also in the "How Can Anyone Stand without Revelation" thread. 

Greg Smith has given it a thoughtful treatment with six points worth considering. And some appropriate quotes from Church leaders, including Marion G. Romney:

Edited to add:

Forgot to include the link. I've now added it above.

If the Spirit has borne witness to someone of the truthfulness of the Book or Mormon, the prophecies concerning the Restored Church contained therein are also true, including the structure the Lord put in place to define the relationship between His servants and His people. In the Book of Mormon we have a covenant with the Lord to “give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants…” (3 Nephi 12:1) He set these servants apart to “go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.” (3 Nephi 11: 41).

1 hour ago, Gray said:

If people can't trust their discernment of the spirit on this issue, then they certainly can't trust the spirit to locate others to outsource that discernment to. Either the spirit is a reliable guide or it is not - the church needs to figure out what its position really is on that.

If the Spirit has borne witness to someone of the truthfulness of the Book or Mormon, the prophecies concerning the Restored Church contained therein are also true, including the structure the Lord put in place to define the relationship between His servants and His people. In the Book of Mormon we have a covenant with the Lord to “give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants…” (3 Nephi 12:1) He set these servants apart to “go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.” (3 Nephi 11: 41).

[thesometimesaint]

IOW Sit down, shut up, and do as you're told. I've been a member of the Church for almost 45 years, and am as faithful as anyone else. I'm not a child, and I resent the Hell out of anyone, anywhere, at any time, who would even imply something like that.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said:

IOW Sit down, shut up, and do as you're told. I've been a member of the Church for almost 45 years, and am as faithful as anyone else. I'm not a child, and I resent the Hell out of anyone, anywhere, at any time, who would even imply something like that.

You mean like Christ who did exactly what the Father told him - I seek not my own will but the will of my Father who sent me.
And Christ's servants who are to do exactly as Christ tells them - Mosiah 5:8
And as CV75 quoted, we are to give heeds unto the words of Christ's servants.
 

[thesometimesaint]

I prefer what the Church has said to such a philosophy.

SEE http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/when-the-prophet-speaks-is-the-thinking-done

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said:

I prefer what the Church has said to such a philosophy.

SEE http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/when-the-prophet-speaks-is-the-thinking-done

There's a balance needed.  That's for certain.  Failing to be obedient is bad.  Failing to think for ourselves is bad.  Figuring out how to obey AND think for ourselves is a tricky balance.

I certainly don't agree with our leaders on all that they do.  But yet I still show up at Church and do my best to sustain them in their callings.  Harmony is important but so is reasoning and learning for ourselves.

It's kind of a spectrum and most members fall on different spots and everyone seems to think their spot is the most right.  I'm not sure we even know exactly where the right spot lies.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

If I understand correctly his main point is:

If you disagree than you are doing it wrong and likely not really sincere in your asking.

[thesometimesaint]

I've only ever had one major disagreement with the Church, and that was the Priesthood ban on blacks. But as that ban had no relevance to my, or anyone else Salvation I joined the Church anyway.

 

[consiglieri]

Inflammatory one liner insult deleted

[Gray]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

If the Spirit has borne witness to someone of the truthfulness of the Book or Mormon, the prophecies concerning the Restored Church contained therein are also true, including the structure the Lord put in place to define the relationship between His servants and His people. In the Book of Mormon we have a covenant with the Lord to “give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants…” (3 Nephi 12:1) He set these servants apart to “go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.” (3 Nephi 11: 41).

For one thing, conclusion B does not follow from premise A. But aside from that, it still doesn't address the question of whether or not we think the spirit is a reliable guide.

[consiglieri]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Also, I cannot join you in dismissing the united voice so lightly. The council system is in place to preclude any one man (ore even two or three of them) from taking the Church off into the weeds.

Because the council system worked so well for the Catholic Church?

I disagree with you, Scott.

The reason the council system is currently in place in the LDS Church is as a substitute for the revelation from God it once had but now only claims.

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Because the council system worked so well for the Catholic Church?

I disagree with you, Scott.

The reason the council system is currently in place in the LDS Church is as a substitute for the revelation from God it once had but now only claims.

False dichotomy. We have Prophets, Seers, and Revelators as counselors in the Church.

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, Gray said:

For one thing, conclusion B does not follow from premise A. But aside from that, it still doesn't address the question of whether or not we think the spirit is a reliable guide.

You didn’t pose a question. You offered the premise and conclusion that someone who can’t trust his own discernment can’t trust the discernment of others. B doesn’t follow A. Aside from that, you not knowing whether the Spirit is a reliable guide doesn’t affect the knowledge of those who know that He is. For those who know that the Spirit is a reliable guide, and possess His testimony of the Book of Mormon, it follows that the prophecies of the Restoration and the Lord’s servants are reliable.

[Gray]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You didn’t pose a question. You offered the premise and conclusion that someone who can’t trust his own discernment can’t trust the discernment of others. B doesn’t follow A. Aside from that, you not knowing whether the Spirit is a reliable guide doesn’t affect the knowledge of those who know that He is. For those who know that the Spirit is a reliable guide, and possess His testimony of the Book of Mormon, it follows that the prophecies of the Restoration and the Lord’s servants are reliable.

That's like saying that if a Nephite got a revelation that Lehi was a true prophet, it follows that king Noah is also right in anything he did. Does not follow.

For those that know that the spirit is a reliable guide, what is your advice for those who have been told by the spirit that this policy is wrong?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

Greg Smith is surely right, as are those who agree with him.

When the leaders speak, the thinking has been done.

Ill-considered, knee-jerk reaction/trite cheap shot/well poisoning

Edited January 12, 2016 by Scott Lloyd