bluebell Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) 8 minutes ago, consiglieri said: The Tanners were generally considered to be more methodical and accurate in their presentation of their criticisms. It was Ed Decker who was the whack-job. And the Tanners and Ed Decker came to blows over it. The Tanners felt that Decker's crazy allegations impugned the Tanner's integrity. And again, it was Gerald Tanner, a true gentleman from my brief experience with him, who never believed the Salamander Letter was authentic. He wasn't an expert in handwriting analysis. His reasoning was much more simple. How could one guy possibly keep finding all this stuff? I thought the salamander letter was the first thing Hoffman "found"? Edited December 31, 2015 by bluebell
sdc999 Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 14 hours ago, JLHPROF said: It doesn't matter if it's the Tanners, Brodie, Snuffer, even the Church itself or anyone else - the problem with "Critics" and "Criticism" is that it usually all boils down to this: Anti: "Hey here is a piece of information about Mormonism that you probably don't know and I am going to use it to shock and dismay you when I reveal it." That's it. That's all. They have nothing else. The problem comes from those of us who: Already knew that. Are not bothered by that in the least. Nothing an anti hates worse that someone who isn't offended by their "shocking reveals". For example: Anti: Hey did you know Joseph had two 14 year old wives? Me: Yes. And? And nothing I guess a TBM dad would hate in response to the "yes, And?" would be, "Well hey, since you're okay with that, I'm 30 and I think your 14 old daughter is kinda hot. Can I take her on a date and see where it leads?" So long as I promise to not have sex until she's of legal age, you should be fine with that too.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: They were the first to loudly declare it. They were not the first or the only ones to suspect a forgery and they certainly did not prove it. I am not sure what "credit" this earns them. Not even when compared with the First Presidency who thought it authentic?
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 25 minutes ago, bluebell said: I thought the salamander letter was the first thing Hoffman "found"? You know, I am not familiar enough with the whole Hofmann story to know what he claimed to have found when. But Hofmann had already "found" a series of important documents prior to the Salamander letter. It appears his plan was to establish his credibility by producing old documents that were not controversial, so that later on when he did produce documents that were controversial, it would be taken for granted they were the real goods. And it appears to have worked like a charm.
bluebell Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You know, I am not familiar enough with the whole Hofmann story to know what he claimed to have found when. But Hofmann had already "found" a series of important documents prior to the Salamander letter. It appears his plan was to establish his credibility by producing old documents that were not controversial, so that later on when he did produce documents that were controversial, it would be taken for granted they were the real goods. And it appears to have worked like a charm. Abd Sandra didn't think it was too much of a coincidence like Gerald did?
Sanpitch Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 24 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You know, I am not familiar enough with the whole Hofmann story to know what he claimed to have found when. But Hofmann had already "found" a series of important documents prior to the Salamander letter. It appears his plan was to establish his credibility by producing old documents that were not controversial, so that later on when he did produce documents that were controversial, it would be taken for granted they were the real goods. And it appears to have worked like a charm. I think he picked up $185,000 dollars out of the deal, from a church leader, but I don't remember if the transaction was completed. Scott Lloyd knows the details I believe.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Abd Sandra didn't think it was too much of a coincidence like Gerald did? No, Sandra I think wanted so much for it to be authentic that she did not agree with Gerald. So you know, I am taking this from Sandra's interview with John Dehlin a year or so ago on Mormon Stories.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 45 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: I think he picked up $185,000 dollars out of the deal, from a church leader, but I don't remember if the transaction was completed. Scott Lloyd knows the details I believe. I am not positive if it was the Salamander Letter or another one that Hofmann produced around the same time. Brent Metcalfe was a close friend of Mark Hofmann at the time and he gives the following account on his interview on Mormon Stories: Gordon B. Hinckley bought the letter and "donated" it to the Church. The Church promptly squirreled it away. But Hofmann, anticipating the Church would do just that, leaked a copy of the letter to the Los Angeles Times. The reporter called the Church and asked whether they had acquired the letter. The Church denied it. The reporter said that he was going to run with the story. It was at that point that all the alarms went off at the COB trying to figure out a way to release the letter to the public in advance of the newspaper story.
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, sdc999 said: And nothing I guess a TBM dad would hate in response to the "yes, And?" would be, "Well hey, since you're okay with that, I'm 30 and I think your 14 old daughter is kinda hot. Can I take her on a date and see where it leads?" So long as I promise to not have sex until she's of legal age, you should be fine with that too. If it was confirmed to me by revelation that it was the will of the Lord I would have zero problem with it. Just like Heber. And there wasn't any "dating" involved. Joseph Smith - “I made this my rule: When the Lord commands, do it." Edited December 31, 2015 by JLHPROF
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 12 hours ago, salgare said: Where are they using this at JLHPROF? i.e. Church? Here? Blogs? the 3 or 4 home boards? I'm not seeing it in most of those arenas. Really? They may not say it as I phrased it but that has always been the methodology. I have yet to see a critic of the Church that didn't reveal their criticisms in the hope of people losing testimony over them. And as Robert said there is nothing they hate more when their criticisms don't bother members. 1
thesometimesaint Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 1 hour ago, sdc999 said: And nothing I guess a TBM dad would hate in response to the "yes, And?" would be, "Well hey, since you're okay with that, I'm 30 and I think your 14 old daughter is kinda hot. Can I take her on a date and see where it leads?" So long as I promise to not have sex until she's of legal age, you should be fine with that too. Your Presentism is showing. 3
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It happens quite frequently, and it is very upsetting to the anti-Mormon crowd. Mormons are supposed to roll over and play dead. They just don't play fair. Exactly. If the criticisms have no effect on members when they are made they serve no purpose and frustrate the critics.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: If it was confirmed to me by revelation that it was the will of the Lord I would have zero problem with it. Just like Heber. And there wasn't any "dating" involved. If it were confirmed to me by revelation that it was the will of the Lord, I would still have a huge problem with it. And I would have a huge problem with the Lord. And I still wouldn't go along with it.
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Just now, consiglieri said: If it were confirmed to me by revelation that it was the will of the Lord, I would still have a huge problem with it. And I would have a huge problem with the Lord. And I still wouldn't go along with it. Because your morals and limited understand of morality are better than the source of all good? Edited December 31, 2015 by JLHPROF
The Nehor Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: Not even when compared with the First Presidency who thought it authentic? And you know they thought it was authentic how?
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Because your morals and limited understand of morality are better than the source of all good? Because there is a spirit in me that can discern right from wrong.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: And you know they thought it was authentic how? Why do you think they bought it and squirreled it away?
Sanpitch Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: And you know they thought it was authentic how? They seemed to think it most likely authentic, at least $185,000 worth. But I'll have to look the details up of what eventually happened.
bluebell Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 10 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I am not positive if it was the Salamander Letter or another one that Hofmann produced around the same time. Brent Metcalfe was a close friend of Mark Hofmann at the time and he gives the following account on his interview on Mormon Stories: Gordon B. Hinckley bought the letter and "donated" it to the Church. The Church promptly squirreled it away. But Hofmann, anticipating the Church would do just that, leaked a copy of the letter to the Los Angeles Times. The reporter called the Church and asked whether they had acquired the letter. The Church denied it. The reporter said that he was going to run with the story. It was at that point that all the alarms went off at the COB trying to figure out a way to release the letter to the public in advance of the newspaper story. I'm not trying to poison the well, but i don't think we can ignore the elephant in the room in regards to this account. Hofmann is a known liar and murderer, who had no conscience. It seems like it would be the height of naivety to believe anything that he says. 1
bluebell Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 18 minutes ago, consiglieri said: No, Sandra I think wanted so much for it to be authentic that she did not agree with Gerald. So you know, I am taking this from Sandra's interview with John Dehlin a year or so ago on Mormon Stories. That makes sense. But it also seems to show that whether or not someone believed the salamander letters to be real or forgeries says nothing about how inspired (ie. close to God, trying to follow Him, etc.) the person was. And if that's true, then i'm not sure the point of this line of discussion. 1
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm not trying to poison the well, but i don't think we can ignore the elephant in the room in regards to this account. Hofmann is a known liar and murderer, who had no conscience. It seems like it would be the height of naivety to believe anything that he says. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I am not referencing Mark Hofmann for this. I am referencing Brent Metcalfe. http://mormonstories.org/brent-metcalfe-mark-hofmann-salamander-letter-bombings/
bluebell Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Just now, consiglieri said: Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I am not referencing Mark Hofmann for this. I am referencing Brent Metcalfe. http://mormonstories.org/brent-metcalfe-mark-hofmann-salamander-letter-bombings/ Yes, but you are referencing something that Hofmann told Brent Metcalfe. Hoffmann is Metcalfe's source, right?
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 9 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Because there is a spirit in me that can discern right from wrong. What makes your spirit discerning right from wrong more correct than Joseph's or mine or anyone else? The age old question - who has the more valid spiritual witness?
ttribe Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: If it was confirmed to me by revelation that it was the will of the Lord I would have zero problem with it. Just like Heber. And there wasn't any "dating" involved. Joseph Smith - “I made this my rule: When the Lord commands, do it." 18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Because your morals and limited understand of morality are better than the source of all good? 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: What makes your spirit discerning right from wrong more correct than Joseph's or mine or anyone else? The age old question - who has the more valid spiritual witness? Where would you draw the line? Do you have a line that you wouldn't cross, where you would question the validity of what you perceived to be revelation?
Sanpitch Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 The McClellan Collection was also a major item at the same time as the Salamander Letter. I don't remember if that was something that Hoffman claimed to have but never produced or actually had, I don't think he did have. But as I remember it was of major interest to the church.
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